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  #161  
Old 10-16-2015, 02:59 PM
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We all know older men* like this...

They have little to do all day but muse over everything in the world that they don't like or approve of (in the US, Fox News encourages this!), and the next thing you know, they're out there yelling, Hey kids, get off my Palace lawn!

Eighty one doesn't seem too old to those of us in long-lived families, but some people of that age have no filters and say unsuitable or embarrassing things. Perhaps he's one of those people about whom you just have to shrug and say, that's (Dad) being Dad.

*and women, too, but women can usually keep themselves occupied.
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  #162  
Old 10-16-2015, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ladongas View Post
They have little to do all day but muse over everything in the world that they don't like or approve of (in the US, Fox News encourages this!), and the next thing you know, they're out there yelling, Hey kids, get off my Palace lawn!

Eighty one doesn't seem too old to those of us in long-lived families, but some people of that age have no filters and say unsuitable or embarrassing things. Perhaps he's one of those people about whom you just have to shrug and say, that's (Dad) being Dad.

*and women, too, but women can usually keep themselves occupied.
He's been saying this for decades though, so it's nothing new for him and nothing to do with his age. It's simply his attitude on things. Thank god that Margrethe seemed to pass more sense onto Frederik.
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  #163  
Old 10-16-2015, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cris M View Post
In Prince Henrik's defence, the husbands of the Queens of Portugal were Kings if they have had a child with their wives.

The husband of Queen Maria I was King Pedro III and the second husband of Queen Maria II was King Fernando II.

I believe it was the same thing in Spain, but King Juan Carlos decided to change this, so the husband of the future Queen Leonor will not be King.

The Brazilian Imperial Constitution also sais the husband of the ruling Empress would be Emperor. Sadly, that never happened with Princess Isabel and the Count of Eu, because of the republican coup.

So, at least the Monarchies of Iberian tradition offer Prince Henrik a precedent.

That said, I like him a lot, but he should stop with this nonsense.

I believe in the case of Portugal and Spain, the King Consorts at least part of the time ruled by right of their wives. The idea being that women were less than and could not rule themselves, and should do the more important thing of taking care of the children.

That's the general point that is missed in this type of debate. The title Queen Consort is always less than the title King. The title King Consort is not actually less than the title Queen Regnant and typically grants the holder power because a man is traditionally seen as a ruler of his wife.

The reason why the husbands of Queens Anne, Victoria, and Elizabeth II in Britain weren't made King Consorts is because the British government wanted the power (whatever power there is) to be in the hands of the Queen. Contrarily, when Queens Mary I and Mary II ruled their husbands, Philip II as King Consort and William III as King Regnant, both held actual power. Everything done during their reigns was in the name of husband and wife.

Henrik is less than his wife. He will always be so and should always be so. It's not a gender issue - Mary is likewise less than her husband for the same reasons. One is the monarch (or heir), the other the consort. And that is how it should be. Henrik throwing a tantrum over his title over and over again is him being immature and failing to understand the meaning of the words.
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  #164  
Old 10-16-2015, 03:28 PM
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He's never going to lets this go, but it's not he who has taken it up the last few times. It's the journalists who ask him, and he is not the type to say ''no comment'' and therefore they will ask again and again and he will respond again and again.
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  #165  
Old 10-16-2015, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY View Post
He's never going to lets this go, but it's not he who has taken it up the last few times. It's the journalists who ask him, and he is not the type to say ''no comment'' and therefore they will ask again and again and he will respond again and again.
Ofc the journalists are bringing it up. It's journalistic gold!! He's just stupid enough to take the hooks they through out.
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  #166  
Old 10-16-2015, 04:15 PM
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It certainly is a longstanding issue for Prince Henrik. Perhaps in the future there will be changes to not differentiate between female and male spouses of the regent. It is not only the title "King" but also being "Your Majesty". In Sweden at least the Queen is also called Ers Majestät (Your Majesty) even though she is not the regent. However, Prince Daniel will not be "Ers Majestät" when Crown Princess Victoria becomes Queen. Only the reigning Queen is then the Your Majesty.
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  #167  
Old 10-16-2015, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grevinnan View Post
It certainly is a longstanding issue for Prince Henrik. Perhaps in the future there will be changes to not differentiate between female and male spouses of the regent. It is not only the title "King" but also being "Your Majesty". In Sweden at least the Queen is also called Ers Majestät (Your Majesty) even though she is not the regent. However, Prince Daniel will not be "Ers Majestät" when Crown Princess Victoria becomes Queen. Only the reigning Queen is then the Your Majesty.

Prince Philip is a Highness, not Majesty. So was Prince Claus.

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Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
Shouldn't he get the title 'queen-consort'? He is the consort of a Queen, not a King.

Your title is gendered based on your gender not your spouse or parent.

Queen Consort is a Queen who is a consort. Likewise King Consort is a King who is consort, and Prince Consort is a Prince who is consort.

It's just like the title Queen Mother. It doesn't mean "the Queen's Mother", it means "a former Queen Consort who is mother to the current monarch".
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  #168  
Old 10-16-2015, 04:41 PM
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These rants come off as so petulant and make the family look bad. He should know better.


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  #169  
Old 10-16-2015, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Your title is gendered based on your gender not your spouse or parent.

Queen Consort is a Queen who is a consort. Likewise King Consort is a King who is consort, and Prince Consort is a Prince who is consort.

It's just like the title Queen Mother. It doesn't mean "the Queen's Mother", it means "a former Queen Consort who is mother to the current monarch".
Thanks, but my post was really not meant to be taken too seriously
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  #170  
Old 10-16-2015, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grevinnan View Post
It certainly is a longstanding issue for Prince Henrik. Perhaps in the future there will be changes to not differentiate between female and male spouses of the regent. It is not only the title "King" but also being "Your Majesty". In Sweden at least the Queen is also called Ers Majestät (Your Majesty) even though she is not the regent. However, Prince Daniel will not be "Ers Majestät" when Crown Princess Victoria becomes Queen. Only the reigning Queen is then the Your Majesty.
Yes, that's true. But Daniel has been brought up in another time and culture than prince Henrik. Daniel is from a middle class family in Dalarna, brought up in a very gender equal context during the 1970's. Henrik was born into the french nobility in the beginning of the century. I'm not saying that Daniel is a better person, but he's a different person. They are both children of their times, and embrace/accept their supportive roles in very different ways.
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  #171  
Old 10-16-2015, 05:16 PM
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Its sad that Henrik doesn't spend as much time making himself as respected as his wife in his actions as he does moaning about not having the same status and respect as his wife through a lack of title. Actions speak louder than words.... and titles.
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  #172  
Old 10-16-2015, 05:23 PM
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French is the language of pedantry and the people of France are famously pedantic. Le prince Henri is merely crossing 'T's and dotting 'I's as is his wont. Of course he is correct that gender inequity exists in the case of Queens and their Prince-Consorts; what is more interesting however is what he wants DONE about this inequity. As the always helpful Muhler has stated, it would probably take a constitutional amendment to make this happen and I do not believe that the Monarch has the wherewithal to suggest such an amendment. I would also bet that the Danish Queen would not want to suggest such an amendment, even if she could (which she probably can't). If the Danish people and the government want an end to this Henrik-nitpicking, then they should take the man's complaint seriously (who knows, he might follow his Greek brother in law's example and plead his case to the European Court of Human Rights). Study the complaint with academic rigour and put the matter to rest, once and for all!
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  #173  
Old 10-16-2015, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
I believe in the case of Portugal and Spain, the King Consorts at least part of the time ruled by right of their wives.
I do not know about earlier kings consort, but the nineteenth-century kings consort of Isabel II of Spain and Maria II of Portugal did not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Jon Bloch Skipper was asked about PH title and possible future titles this week in BB. And basically it's up to QMII, except for the title of king!
Because that would mean that the Constitution needs a definition of the title King. Because there are lots of references to the King in the Constitution. And even though King in this context means the Monarch, the wording in the Constitution still needs to be changed should PH become king.
If his logic holds, a future king of Denmark who abdicates will not be able to enjoy the title of King after his abdication.
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  #174  
Old 10-16-2015, 08:50 PM
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I made the below comment in the CP Frederik Current Events Thread on September 27, 2015.
I will put it here as I think it is relevant to the discussion!

Quote:
I have a different point of view as to why CP Frederik's constitutional role as heir and future King is so "hidden" from public view and knowledge. I may be completely off base but here goes anyhow. Let me emphasize that this is my opinion only!

Everyone has made very important points...but I think that the discussion is missing a very important family dynamic. And that dynamic surrounds Prince Henrik....a man who sees himself as #2 in the family after the Queen; is against being "downgraded" to #3 and thinks that he should have the title as King since his wife is Queen.

The same Prince Henrik who in 2002 fled Denmark for southern France after feeling "degraded" when the media dared suggest that Crown Prince Frederik was the host of the New Year's Court that year when the Queen could not attend due to an injury!

Prince Henrik places great importance on being half of the regent couple of Denmark. How is the DRF to deal with Prince Henrik's sensitivities? As he gets older, he will not change his opinion or thinking....and he is still the Queen's husband and CP Frederik's father. So I think that the Queen and CP Frederik have compromised and decided that CP Frederik's preparation for his future role as King should be done as behind the scenes as possible...so as not to seem as though Frederik is "overtaking" Prince Henrik in importance. With the advent of social media, CP Frederik's constitutional activities are becoming known indirectly.

I often wonder how Prince Henrik will react if the Queen were to die and the CP Couple become the regent couple. Would he retire and move to southern France permanently?

I also think that the PR strategy of the DRF reflects the character of the head of the family - the Queen - a woman who is not of the technological age and probably isn't too in tune with the power of social media. I remember from the last documentary of the monarchy at work that she still uses a pocket diary to record her events. I would think that F&M use their smart phones/computers/I Pads.

I think better PR will come when F&M become the regent couple...especially with CP Mary's background in marketing. She already uses the website and social media connected to the Mary Foundation to get the message out on her meetings and behind the scene events.



So while I agree there are problems with poor communication and the DRF's PR on CP Frederik's activities as heir...I still think we must also consider the somewhat thorny issue of a father who cannot handle being seen as less important than his son.
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  #175  
Old 10-16-2015, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terri Terri View Post
I made the below comment in the CP Frederik Current Events Thread on September 27, 2015.
I will put it here as I think it is relevant to the discussion!
This is exactly what this whole thread is about. Am I missing the point?
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  #176  
Old 10-16-2015, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
I believe in the case of Portugal and Spain, the King Consorts at least part of the time ruled by right of their wives. The idea being that women were less than and could not rule themselves, and should do the more important thing of taking care of the children.
I don't know about Spain, but I can assure you that Queen Maria I and Queen Maria II really ruled over Portugal, their husbands were mere consorts with the same amount of power Prince Philip has today.

And the Brazilian Imperial Constitution was very specific regarding the (lack of) power of the Emperor consort:

The Marriage of the Princess Heiress presumptive of the Crown will be made according the will of the Emperor; if the Emperor is absent at the time of this Marriage, it will not happen without the consent of the General Assembly. Her Husband will have no part in the Government and will only be called Emperor after giving the Empress a son or a daughter.
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  #177  
Old 10-16-2015, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by grevinnan View Post
This is exactly what this whole thread is about. Am I missing the point?
No, you're not! Around late September, there was a discussion in the CP Frederik Current Events thread about the sometimes poor PR for CP Frederik's duties - especially his constitutional duties, which were not recorded on the royal calendar or do not attract media attention. My post quoted before was my opinion.
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  #178  
Old 10-16-2015, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I do not know about earlier kings consort, but the nineteenth-century kings consort of Isabel II of Spain and Maria II of Portugal did not.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Cris M View Post
I don't know about Spain, but I can assure you that Queen Maria I and Queen Maria II really ruled over Portugal, their husbands were mere consorts with the same amount of power Prince Philip has today.

King Ferdinand II of Portugal, née Sachsen-Coburg-Saalfeld, was very much an active partner to his wife Queen Maria II and even ruled in her absence during her many pregnancies. He was also a regent for their son King Pedro V 1853-1855 after the death of his wife. All in all he was a very capable and popular King consort who made the best out of his position without trying to upstage the monarch, his wife, who in turn trusted his advice and leaned on him in the day to day running of the country.


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  #179  
Old 10-16-2015, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
I believe in the case of Portugal and Spain, the King Consorts at least part of the time ruled by right of their wives. The idea being that women were less than and could not rule themselves, and should do the more important thing of taking care of the children.

That's the general point that is missed in this type of debate. The title Queen Consort is always less than the title King. The title King Consort is not actually less than the title Queen Regnant and typically grants the holder power because a man is traditionally seen as a ruler of his wife.

The reason why the husbands of Queens Anne, Victoria, and Elizabeth II in Britain weren't made King Consorts is because the British government wanted the power (whatever power there is) to be in the hands of the Queen. Contrarily, when Queens Mary I and Mary II ruled their husbands, Philip II as King Consort and William III as King Regnant, both held actual power. Everything done during their reigns was in the name of husband and wife.

Henrik is less than his wife. He will always be so and should always be so. It's not a gender issue - Mary is likewise less than her husband for the same reasons. One is the monarch (or heir), the other the consort. And that is how it should be. Henrik throwing a tantrum over his title over and over again is him being immature and failing to understand the meaning of the words.
Henrik is not asking to rule by right of his wife or to be above her in rank. He is just arguing he should hold the same rank for example as Maxima, which is faiir and a reasonable demand.

No matter what you guys say, Henrik is below Maxima when the latter is styled Majesty and foreign HRHs curtsy to her while they don't to the former.

As for the argument that the word King necessarily means a sovereign, i suppose that a society that was able to redefine the meaning of a concept as old as marriage (no lionger a union between a man and a woman) shouldn't find it difficult to incorporate the concept of King consort in its dictionary.
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  #180  
Old 10-16-2015, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
King Ferdinand II of Portugal, née Sachsen-Coburg-Saalfeld, was very much an active partner to his wife Queen Maria II and even ruled in her absence during her many pregnancies. He was also a regent for their son King Pedro V 1853-1855 after the death of his wife. All in all he was a very capable and popular King consort who made the best out of his position without trying to upstage the monarch, his wife, who in turn trusted his advice and leaned on him in the day to day running of the country.


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Very true, I was wrong when I tried to portray Pedro III and Fernando II as the same kind of consorts. They were not.

We can say Maria II and Fernando II ruled together, but never that he ruled in his wife's place. That said, Queen Maria II was a very hands on Sovereign.
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