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  #181  
Old 04-05-2005, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papillon
I'm not sure this is a representative view.


No, I really don't think it is. Within the culture she is operating in, there are some legitimate reasons to criticize P. Haya. To call it bashing is an attempt, I think, to trivialize explanations and reasons that you may not agree with. But most of the people who hold these views either are nationals of the region or have lived there/worked there. So it is really quite unfair to discount these views. You may not agree, that is certainly your right, but to pull out the bash word is really a cheap shot and disrespectful to others who may actually have better information. :(
No, I really don't think it is. Within the culture she is operating in
I totally agree with you.....
Its accepted in isalm to have more than one wife....
but do they do what islam tells them to Exactly??
No!
they take what they want from islam and leave the rest
Its not accepted for Haya to Go out not covering her hair i mean in islam....
It is accepted in isalm but not in the UAE culture anymore and is very rare to have more than a wife....Nor in Jordan i think its not normal to have more than a wife!
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  #182  
Old 04-05-2005, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papillon
Well, earlier you described her as intelligent, not educated. . .there's a difference between the two.
I stand by that too. Nothing proves her to be otherwise. We all make questionable choices and decisions. But that doesnt negate all that we've done right.


Quote:
I've been a member of this forum for quite some time, so I am well familiar.
If, as you say, you have been reading all the threads all along then I dont see how you could excuse certain members insulting Haya, calling her names, disparaging her appearance, going to all lengths to prove that everything she does in her new country counts for nothing and that nobody cares. That, to me, is not how a civilized person expresses dislike or constructive criticism.
Other royal women have their own share of bashers on this forum. Haya isnt the only target. I myself criticize certain royals when I think its fair. But I dont systematically go after particular royals, putting them down at every single opportunity I get, in any thread they're mentioned in.
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  #183  
Old 04-06-2005, 07:00 AM
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well. i think PHaya has done what she wants despite others opinion , i see that we can't blame her as she married Mo , he is grown up man and he wanted Haya to be his wife , she said yes , what is the wrong with that , why they put all the blame on her , she is working in UAE what is the wrong with that too, and after all she is Arabian woman and as all Arabs say we are one nation , if we can't handle this because Haya is not emirates , how we will be a one country , i really can't understand this , in Jordan KH married American and British one , we didn't like it but we didn't say bad words a bout them just for talk , we never criticize PMouna for example as she was a good woman , so we look to their work, Haya is full Arabic woman, she made a mistakes in her life , but i think she is a very brave woman , she faced her bad conditions by her own , even if many didn't like her decision , i didn't like it too ,but we have to respect her choice . and if we couldn't handle it we have no right to put the blame of the world on her.
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  #184  
Old 04-06-2005, 10:48 AM
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I agree suria. As I said before SheikhMo is his own man. The man is the crown prince of dubai, a billionaire, a very powerful man. WHy put all the blame on PHaya! SOme of you guys make it seem as if SheikhMo is some kind of punk. Well he ain't. And I thought that Arabs were supposed to stick together....and also with the picking and choosing out of Islam what you want to obey, well unfortunately that is going on in CHirstianity too. DOes anyone have a cure for that?
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  #185  
Old 04-06-2005, 03:33 PM
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personally what is bothering me that Haya not in her place she deserve to be in better relation and I say that as a muslim and an arab woman , I know there are a lot of people will not accept her in debi because they can't understand the reason of her choice .
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  #186  
Old 04-06-2005, 03:47 PM
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do you think it would have been better if she married one of Sheikh Mo's (or maybe even the emir of qatar's) sons? But she must be a bit older than them. WHy do you think? However it seems that her and SHeikMo have alot in common-interests & goals.
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  #187  
Old 04-06-2005, 03:54 PM
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Reina , there are a lot of princes and sheikhs in arab world maybe not rich like mo but young like her but to be honest I don't care if she married young or old man or prince or not prince I was wish she marry single man can give her all his attention without hurting athoer people , that just my point .


just for the ( record ) I like her very much and I realy disappointed with her choice , but I hope she is happy with her choice although I have this feeling that she not .
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  #188  
Old 04-06-2005, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suria
well. i think PHaya has done what she wants despite others opinion , i see that we can't blame her as she married Mo , he is grown up man and he wanted Haya to be his wife , she said yes , what is the wrong with that , why they put all the blame on her , she is working in UAE what is the wrong with that too, and after all she is Arabian woman and as all Arabs say we are one nation , if we can't handle this because Haya is not emirates , how we will be a one country , i really can't understand this , in Jordan KH married American and British one , we didn't like it but we didn't say bad words a bout them just for talk , we never criticize PMouna for example as she was a good woman , so we look to their work, Haya is full Arabic woman, she made a mistakes in her life , but i think she is a very brave woman , she faced her bad conditions by her own , even if many didn't like her decision , i didn't like it too ,but we have to respect her choice . and if we couldn't handle it we have no right to put the blame of the world on her.

I admire your sentiment suria and agree with what you say. But I think I would go beyond your point about Arabs being one nation and extend that to all Muslims being community. Though I understand there are some Arabs who dont feel this way. I dont think any one should have a problem with Sheikh Muhammad's choice of wife had she been a non-Arab Muslim, or a westerner. If two adults marry out of their own free will and with the best intentions, no one has the right to criticize their union. According to Islam he could even marry a Christian or a Jewish woman. In matters like that, Islam is far more liberal than some very conservative cultural practices.Thats my point of view. But I do understand that some people in the ME have problems with their kings/princes marrying "foreigners"
Fortunately I dont see it in most other Muslim countries.
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  #189  
Old 04-06-2005, 04:09 PM
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Humera I understand how people think and believe they realy think if there king or prince marry a foreigner woman that means they will be under foreigner ruling but also some people think that if the prince or the king didn't marry woman from the same country that means he don't respect them or don't see them equal with him .
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  #190  
Old 04-06-2005, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~
I admire your sentiment suria and agree with what you say. But I think I would go beyond your point about Arabs being one nation and extend that to all Muslims being community. Though I understand there are some Arabs who dont feel this way. I dont think any one should have a problem with Sheikh Muhammad's choice of wife had she been a non-Arab Muslim, or a westerner. If two adults marry out of their own free will and with the best intentions, no one has the right to criticize their union. According to Islam he could even marry a Christian or a Jewish woman. In matters like that, Islam is far more liberal than some very conservative cultural practices.Thats my point of view. But I do understand that some people in the ME have problems with their kings/princes marrying "foreigners"
Fortunately I dont see it in most other Muslim countries.

Please don't take this question the wrong way, I'm just wondering...there's a lot of talk in Muslim/Islamic communities of unity, yet a lot of times I hear more of such sentiments as we are Arabs, why not we are Muslims? I mean why do a lot of Arabs put more importance on being Arab than they d on being Muslim? And I really don't mean to lump everyone together, but I've heard this kind of sentiment from a lot of Arabs and I can't seem to understand the reason behind it. Please don't take offense to my question, remember, I'm an ignorant westerner, who is not well versed in cultural practices of other people, but I'm asking questions to try and understand.

-Eliza
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  #191  
Old 04-06-2005, 04:18 PM
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well here is a response from an ignorant (but one who is learning) westerner who happens to like giving her opinion.
I think the reason why arab unity is more important is b/c many of them think being arab is the best ethnic group to be. That is why you see many N.Africans who are eager to claim that they are arab (but not many arabs who are eager to accept that claim). However the the turks kind of look down on arabs though even though both of them are muslims. I thin kevery ethnic group goes through this dilemma. But one thing I am confused about is that Arabs say they are caucasian. I just can't get that. I know Persians are true caucasians. But how can arabs be caucasians. IS the sultan of oman caucasian. He looks pretty dark to me.
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  #192  
Old 04-06-2005, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reina
well here is a response from an ignorant (but one who is learning) westerner who happens to like giving her opinion.
I think the reason why arab unity is more important is b/c many of them think being arab is the best ethnic group to be. That is why you see many N.Africans who are eager to claim that they are arab (but not many arabs who are eager to accept that claim). However the the turks kind of look down on arabs though even though both of them are muslims. I thin kevery ethnic group goes through this dilemma. But one thing I am confused about is that Arabs say they are caucasian. I just can't get that. I know Persians are true caucasians. But how can arabs be caucasians. IS the sultan of oman caucasian. He looks pretty dark to me.
well Reina as far as them claiming to be caucasians, I believe they may actaully be right, there is a definition of the word caucasian that is not in use anymore, and according to it, they can claim to be caucasians without being white, being specifically white was not the original criteria for being caucasian...here's the definition and a link to a source:

Cau·ca·sian Pronunciation Key

adj.
  1. Anthropology. Of or being a major human racial classification traditionally distinguished by physical characteristics such as very light to brown skin pigmentation and straight to wavy or curly hair, and including peoples indigenous to Europe, northern Africa, western Asia, and India. No longer in scientific use. See Usage Note at race1.
  2. Of or relating to the Caucasus region or its peoples, languages, or cultures.
  3. Of or relating to a group of three language families spoken in the region of the Caucasus mountains, including Chechen, Abkhaz, and the Kartvelian languages.
link:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=caucasian

-Eliza
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  #193  
Old 04-06-2005, 04:27 PM
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well that makes sense...i guess they can be caucasians w/o being white
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  #194  
Old 04-06-2005, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elizahawthorne
Please don't take this question the wrong way, I'm just wondering...there's a lot of talk in Muslim/Islamic communities of unity, yet a lot of times I hear more of such sentiments as we are Arabs, why not we are Muslims? I mean why do a lot of Arabs put more importance on being Arab than they d on being Muslim? And I really don't mean to lump everyone together, but I've heard this kind of sentiment from a lot of Arabs and I can't seem to understand the reason behind it. Please don't take offense to my question, remember, I'm an ignorant westerner, who is not well versed in cultural practices of other people, but I'm asking questions to try and understand.

-Eliza
I really dont think you're an "ignorant westerner"
I myself was born in a Muslim country, Pakistan, and basically grew up in the west. And I agree with what you say. I am not Arabic. So I can relate with what you've said. Infact I have heard the same complaint from Asian Muslims and non-Muslims who have worked and lived in the Middle East and have faced discrimination or encountered "superior attitudes" from some Arabs. Infact I can tell you with great certainty that a lot of Asians who work in the Gulf/UAE as labourers or minor workers, are treated badly by the locals. This was recently confirmed by a friend of mine who has moved to Dubai with her husband and observed the way these people are treated. It is very sad because the Quran and the Prophet declared the equality of all humans, not just Muslims, and that an Arab isnt superior to a non-Arab. I know we shouldn't go so off-topic but we're seeing similar attitudes towards Princess Haya. Though she is Arab, she's still not good enough because she's not an Emirati, as declared by one member. This sort of thinking is backward and narrow-minded. I dont care how much oil a country produces or how many sky scrapers it has, progress is meaningless unless it leads to a broadening of people's minds and tolerant attitudes. Clinging stubbornly to cultural norms is nothing to be proud of when those norms are discriminatory and intolerant.
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  #195  
Old 04-06-2005, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~
Infact I have heard the same complaint from Asian Muslims and non-Muslims who have worked and lived in the Middle East and have faced discrimination or encountered "superior attitudes" from some Arabs. Infact I can tell you with great certainty that a lot of Asians who work in the Gulf/UAE as labourers or minor workers, are treated badly by the locals. .
I think Humera Discrimination is everywhere not only DUBAI in India itself there is discrimination between diffrenet social Levels of the society.Dicrimination in in all over the world.... we as arabs when we go to europe although we go for tourisim we are discriminated and miss treated as we are muslmis.... but here i can't genalise and say the whole european community is like this.
My neighbours are Rich indians in dubai....they have Indian cooks and workers...they were miss treated by the employer...who is also indian and came to our house to look for a job as we also have indian workers....

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~
This was recently confirmed by a friend of mine who has moved to Dubai with her husband and observed the way these people are treated. .
I would like to know how do they treat them please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~
I know we shouldn't go so off-topic but we're seeing similar attitudes towards Princess Haya. Though she is Arab, she's still not good enough because she's not an Emirati, as declared by one member. .
As for Haya If you read my Posts earlier we are not against her because she is marrie to an Emarati.... we are against her getting married to a married man... we are against her getting married to a 1. Married man 2. we have 1st lady who we love can't accpet another one who is not from our community, here comes culture.... she can get married to any of the royals no one would be against this wedding but not a crown prince who Is MARRIED and who is STILL with his wife.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~
I dont care how much oil a country produces or how many sky scrapers it has, progress is meaningless unless it leads to a broadening of people's minds and tolerant attitudes. Clinging stubbornly to cultural norms is nothing to be proud of when those norms are discriminatory and intolerant.
The Oil you are talking about what made Haya Marry sheikh Mohammed if he didn't have$$$$$$$ would she marry him a married man who is 27 years older with a wife and children would she marry him NO WAY!!!!!!!!!!!
remove the $$$$$$$ from the list and I bet she would not even look at him.
Our culture is something we are proud of and attched to and a person with no culture no past no values will never have a future, and our culture has no discrimination not accepting someone doesn't mean we discriminate you should understand what culture means to us before judging.
If you have been brought up in a community with culture you may understand what i mean.!
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  #196  
Old 04-06-2005, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Jood
If you have been brought up in a community with culture you may understand what i mean.!
When you make ignorant comments like that, you completely discredit the more sane points you make.
The UAE isnt the only place with culture. You keep using the term repeatedly in your posts. Perhaps you dont understand the meaning of the word. Every nation on this earth has a unique culture of its own and Im proud to say that I come from a culture rich in diversity and traditions, a heritage that is thousands of years old, belonging to one of the world's most ancient civilizations. And I am equally proud of the inclusive, tolerant, and diverse culture of the country I live in.
Dont presume to make judgements about me when you have no idea who I am. I've ignored all your comments so far but I dont ignore personal attacks. So be careful the next time to presume to post another ignorant comment.
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  #197  
Old 04-06-2005, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Jood
I think Humera Discrimination is everywhere not only DUBAI in India itself there is discrimination between diffrenet social Levels of the society.Dicrimination in in all over the world.... we as arabs when we go to europe although we go for tourisim we are discriminated and miss treated as we are muslmis.... but here i can't genalise and say the whole european community is like this.
My neighbours are Rich indians in dubai....they have Indian cooks and workers...they were miss treated by the employer...who is also indian and came to our house to look for a job as we also have indian workers....

I would like to know how do they treat them please.


As for Haya If you read my Posts earlier we are not against her because she is marrie to an Emarati.... we are against her getting married to a married man... we are against her getting married to a 1. Married man 2. we have 1st lady who we love can't accpet another one who is not from our community, here comes culture.... she can get married to any of the royals no one would be against this wedding but not a crown prince who Is MARRIED and who is STILL with his wife.


The Oil you are talking about what made Haya Marry sheikh Mohammed if he didn't have$$$$$$$ would she marry him a married man who is 27 years older with a wife and children would she marry him NO WAY!!!!!!!!!!!
remove the $$$$$$$ from the list and I bet she would not even look at him.
Our culture is something we are proud of and attched to and a person with no culture no past no values will never have a future, and our culture has no discrimination not accepting someone doesn't mean we discriminate you should understand what culture means to us before judging.
If you have been brought up in a community with culture you may understand what i mean.!

while I do not claim to be a know-it-all in Mid-Eastern culture, there is a difference in the kind of discrimination (in india) and the kind of discriminiation* (between arabs and non arabs) my original question was, that as most arabs (not all) are muslims, and Islam places such a high importance in unity between muslims and equality among muslims then why do a lot of (muslim) arabs (and this is not I belive limited to muslim arabs but I'm wondering about muslim arabs) maintain a superior attitude towards non arab muslims?


I realize the post was directed to Humera, but my original question was being lost in it so I had to respond. Anyhow, there is no reason to get defensive as my question is not meant as an assault on arabs, I am just trying to understand why of all the people in the world would a muslim (arab) would hold a superior attitude toward another muslim (non Arab)...does this then mean that generally speaking arabs don't marry into non arab famillies?

*Arab to non-Arab superior attitude is not really discriminiation, it's just superior attitude

as for P Haya, no you did not say that she was unaccepted because she was a non-emirati (spelling?), but someone else did.

-Eliza
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  #198  
Old 04-06-2005, 10:20 PM
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I do not have a problem with this course of discussion -- yet.

BUT I do think everybody needs to calm down a bit and read each other's posts more carefully. People are mis-reading each other's posts and opinons, feelings and personal sentiments about each other's cultures as well as Princess Haya and her marriage are being misconstrued and stepped upon. --If you are unsure or unclear about what another member is saying in his or her post, ask for a clarification -- don't just presume you understand what the member is saying.

This entire discussion is of a very sensitive nature as it involves cultures that we are not all completely familiar with or have misconceptions about. And if we could only listen to each other we might learn a bit more about each other's cultures or get a new perspective about a culture we are already familiar with.

Alexandria
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  #199  
Old 04-06-2005, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Jood
I
As for Haya If you read my Posts earlier we are not against her because she is marrie to an Emarati.... we are against her getting married to a married man... we are against her getting married to a 1. Married man 2. we have 1st lady who we love can't accpet another one who is not from our community, here comes culture.... she can get married to any of the royals no one would be against this wedding but not a crown prince who Is MARRIED and who is STILL with his wife.
El Jood,

I must ask you....why are you attacking Haya for marrying the S.Mohammed? Why are you not furious at S.Mohammed for marrying another woman while he already is married to one. Especially one, according to you, that is very much respected and loved by the people? It is not like Haya held him at gun point and forced him to marry her... he consented.
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Old 04-06-2005, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbles
El Jood,

I must ask you....why are you attacking Haya for marrying the S.Mohammed? Why are you not furious at S.Mohammed for marrying another woman while he already is married to one. Especially one, according to you, that is very much respected and loved by the people? It is not like Haya held him at gun point and forced him to marry her... he consented.
Errrm. I think you misunderstand what El Jood said she meant Sheikha Hind is well-loved and it's difficult to accept Haya when they already love sheikha hind so much, i think this sentiment is understandable because they feel that if they accord P Haya with any amount of love or respect they will be disrespecting sheikha hind who is sheikh mo's first wife and whom they really love, respect, and admire.

As for your second point, "It is not like Haya held him at gun point and forced him to marry her... he consented" if you read earlier posts, those people who are against Haya for marrying Sheikh Mo are well aware of the fact that Sheikh Mo was an equal participant, but since this is P Haya's thread they don;t criticize sheikh mo here because it'd be off-topic

personally, I think that it is not our place to judge, but it is inevitable when you have public figures and they do something that shocks you. Many of those people who are against Haya have maintained that they actually like Haya, just not some of the choices she has made--while I don't agree, I think her choices are her choices it is her personal matter and I'm not going to judge her or sheikh mo based on thier personal choices...I certainly understand where those who don't like Haya's choices are coming from. Isn't one of the reasons why we're here to discuss and understand one another's points of view?

I hope this helps...El Jood if I made a mistake in interpreting what you said in hyour post, please correct me and I do apologize

-Eliza
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