Your thoughts about (Dutch) Abdications

[Henri M.]

Abdications in the Houses of Orange and Nassau

It has been at least two privious monarch that abdicated from the throne in the favour of their Children.

Queen Wilhelmina Abdicated in 1948 after reigning for 58 years, and Queen Juliana Abdicated in 1980 after reigning for 32 years.

Do you think Queen Beatrix will also abdicated in the favour of The Prince of Oranje? She's now 68 and already reigning for 26 years.

1840
Willem I Frederik King of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau, Grand Duke of Luxembourg, Fürst of Nassau

1919
Marie-Adelheid Grand Duchess of Luxembourg, Duchess of Nassau

1948
Wilhelmina Queen of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau

1964
Charlotte Grand Duchess of Lucembourg, Duchess of Nassau

1980
Juliana Queen of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau

2000
Jean Grand Duke of Luxembourg, Duke of Nassau

I for myself do hope that Queen Beatrix will remain our lady Sovereign as long as she enjoys good health and mind. There is some gossip that she will abdicate in 2010, that means in 3 years time, because then the extensive renovations to the Royal Palace Amsterdam and to her private estate Drakensteyn will have finished. But this is in fact nonsense. If Queen Beatrix dies tomorrow, there will be an investiture of King Willem IV Alexander in Amsterdam. With or without a Royal Palace available.

 

[Verde Esmeralda]

I find it fascinating that the Dutch people's immense love for their Royal Family has not been lessened by the abdications of the last two Queens.

Of course, abdication is not "Traditional" and in Britain, it carries memories to a very negative experience. Maybe in modern times, it's time for modern measures and modern monarchs.

Azile

So do I. And I would like to remind you of what Juliana said, back in 1980, when she abdicated:

"Everyone who is getting old is sooner or later confronted with the sober fact that powers diminish and that one cannot carry out one's task as one used to. And then there comes a moment when it's no longer justified to continue carrying out duties. I feel that the moment has come to resign as your Queen."

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,950247,00.html?promoid=googlep


She felt that it was irresponsible to continue as Queen, she was probably tired, and Beatrix was ready to reign. I think it was perfectly rational. And I do believe Beatrix will act alike, in 5 years' time maximum.

 

[fee]

I sincerely hope, that Beatrix will reign a bit longer than that.
As many have pinted out, her grandchildren are still so young and she is still so energetic and full of life.
I am not against abdication, I always felt, that a monarch or a first in line who is not willing to do the job, usually makes a lousy performance.
And that is what actually weakens the monarchy.
Not the fact, that an old and tired monarch perhaps in ill-health, steps down for a dedicated younger generation.
A crown-prince who is more absent, whose most mentions in the press is about his hobbies and not his duties, a monarch who is slowing turning into Mad King George, however refusing to hand over any part of his/her job to the crownprince (Queen Victoria) is a much greater threat to monarchy.

 

[Marengo]

So do I. And I would like to remind you of what Juliana said, back in 1980, when she abdicated:

"Everyone who is getting old is sooner or later confronted with the sober fact that powers diminish and that one cannot carry out one's task as one used to. And then there comes a moment when it's no longer justified to continue carrying out duties. I feel that the moment has come to resign as your Queen."

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,950247,00.html?promoid=googlep


She felt that it was irresponsible to continue as Queen, she was probably tired, and Beatrix was ready to reign. I think it was perfectly rational. And I do believe Beatrix will act alike, in 5 years' time maximum.

Queen Wilhelmina wrote about this in her autobiography 'lonely but not alone' to. She started wwith the example of Emperor Charles V (King Carlos II of Spain). When she was younger she felt his decision very strange and walking away from duty. But later in life she understood that instead it was the ultimate action one could do for duty, to know when you have to step down as another person can do it better.

 

[Next Star]

I do not believe in abicating the only reason that a monarch should abicate if their too sick to actual be head of state. By abicating your not following the terms of government it says your suppose to hold your office postion for life which means until you die.

 

[Marengo]

The Dutch goverment never said that a monarch should stay ' in office' untill his/her death.

The monarch says in the oath that (s)he promises to do what is best for the country, and some previous monarchs thought that an abdication and a new, younger ruler was just that.

 

[Next Star]

The Dutch goverment never said that a monarch should stay ' in office' untill his/her death.

The monarch says in the oath that (s)he promises to do what is best for the country, and some previous monarchs thought that an abdication and a new, younger ruler was just that.

I did not say the Dutch government had said that the monarch must hold his/her postion of life. I was stating that the meaning of a monarchy which headed a monarch holds his/her postion life that is the defintion of a monarch.

 

[Marengo]

Well, I could look up the definition of monarch in my dictionairy and I am sure that there won't be anything about a position for life there. However I get your point. It is a matter of interpretation and of changing society and traditions IMHO. And maybe even a matter of changing demographics. With the present longlivity of people ruling for life might mean in the future that all monarchs would be starting at an age where normal people retire, which has its disadvantages.

I am quite happy with the sollution chosen in my country, but I respect that others feel differently about the matter.

 

[Verde Esmeralda]

Queen Wilhelmina wrote about this in her autobiography 'lonely but not alone' to. She started wwith the example of Emperor Charles V (King Carlos II of Spain). When she was younger she felt his decision very strange and walking away from duty. But later in life she understood that instead it was the ultimate action one could do for duty, to know when you have to step down as another person can do it better.

That's exactly what I meant. Thanks again Marengo

Though I don't think Beatrix has any kind of obstacle for continuing as Queen, it would be a wise thing to do, maybe in 5 years' time, to step down and leave WA as King. He'll already be in his forties, and I believe he is already perfectly capable of carrying the crown. And I'm sure she needs some rest!

Won't start the should-Maxima-be-Queen controversy here, because it's the subject of another thread.

 

[Next Star]

That's exactly what I meant. Thanks again Marengo

Though I don't think Beatrix has any kind of obstacle for continuing as Queen, it would be a wise thing to do, maybe in 5 years' time, to step down and leave WA as King. He'll already be in his forties, and I believe he is already perfectly capable of carrying the crown. And I'm sure she needs some rest!

Won't start the should-Maxima-be-Queen controversy here, because it's the subject of another thread.

People seem to forget Willem-Aleander and Maxima have very young children and that would take most of time going on foreign visit to other nations. It has nothing to do with his age but his children yes it does if maybe married sooner than he did at 27 or 28 his children would much older than they are now. His mother should only abdicate when she becomes too ill to perform her duties as Queen of Netherlands and not because of her son's age.

 

[Verde Esmeralda]

People seem to forget Willem-Aleander and Maxima have very young children and that would take most of time going on foreign visit to other nations. It has nothing to do with his age but his children yes it does if maybe married sooner than he did at 27 or 28 his children would much older than they are now. His mother should only abdicate when she becomes too ill to perform her duties as Queen of Netherlands and not because of her son's age.

That's true. That's partly why, in my opinion, the hipothetical abdication won't take place in the inmediate future. And for God's sake, she doesn't need to be "ill"!! Just merely tired or too elder to continue ...

Regarding state visits and so, well ... i'm sure they've got that subject covered as well with good nanny's and loads of assistants.... though unless they "stop" having new princes/princesses, there will always be a baby to be taken care of...

 

[Next Star]

That's true. That's partly why, in my opinion, the hipothetical abdication won't take place in the inmediate future. And for God's sake, she doesn't need to be "ill"!! Just merely tired or too elder to continue ...

Regarding state visits and so, well ... i'm sure they've got that subject covered as well with good nanny's and loads of assistants.... though unless they "stop" having new princes/princesses, there will always be a baby to be taken care of...

I believe when someone who is head of state is healthy in their mind,sound ,and body they should to be head of state until they are not able to perform their duties. Here's an opition they could cut back on traveling and visting foriegn nations and spend more time in their homeland.
I don't like the sound of nanny meaning mommy and daddy are not home yes I also understand they will need assitants with the schdule Willem-Alexander and Maxima will have as King and Queen of The Netherlands.

 

[Verde Esmeralda]

I believe when someone who is head of state is healthy in their mind,sound ,and body they should to be head of state until they are not able to perform their duties.

It is a little bit complex to establish the boundaries here. I agree with you, being the head of State is a huge responsibility, therefore shouldn't be an easily declinable task.
I do not mean that Beatrix should abdicate automatically whenever she feels "bored" or "tired", but I don't think she should wait till she is uncapable of reigning. Juliana abdicated when she was in her early seventies.

Here's an opition they could cut back on traveling and visting foriegn nations and spend more time in their homeland.
I don't like the sound of nanny meaning mommy and daddy are not home yes I also understand they will need assitants with the schdule Willem-Alexander and Maxima will have as King and Queen of The Netherlands.

Cutting back on travelling abroad would probably mean lowering their international profile too much. Travelling almost constantly, leaving their children and coping with busy agendas is, sadly, the other side of the coin, which every member of the RF is aware of, and accepts in order to enjoy the fancy part of the job.

 

[Next Star]

I still diagree with someone abdicating because of there age and not beacuse can not perform their duties. Beatrix could have Willem- Alexander respent her as her regent unit she abdicates or passes on by doing the international affairs while Beatrix would be able to the national affairs what little she has to work with. But there is still a problem being that Willem-Aleander and Maxima would be home away from their young children and the nannies would have to look after them which I am not fond of because there is no replacement for their parents in my eyes .

 

[ysbel]

In another 10 years, childcare will be a non issue with Amalia in boarding school and her little sister fast behind her.

 

[jobo]

From another perspective it must be difficult to be in Prince Charles' position - almost at the age in which his peers are thinking about retiring from their careers and he has yet to begin the one role that destiny has dictated. Yes he has developed the very successful Princes Trust and has other interests but the real job has yet to begin, is dependent on his mother's passing and by then will he have the inclination and energy to even want it! While he has had the years to establish his family, there are some disadvantages of being the eldest son of a crowned young and long living soveriegn!

 

[Verde Esmeralda]

I still diagree with someone abdicating because of there age and not beacuse can not perform their duties. Beatrix could have Willem- Alexander respent her as her regent unit she abdicates or passes on by doing the international affairs while Beatrix would be able to the national affairs what little she has to work with. But there is still a problem being that Willem-Aleander and Maxima would be home away from their young children and the nannies would have to look after them which I am not fond of because there is no replacement for their parents in my eyes .

Yes well, it's sad but i'm sure lots of parents have to do the same in real life, and they have even less help

Plus I believe they are not travelling around ALL the time...

I don't know whether Beatrix could sistematically send WA to foreign countries and stay to perform her duties in the Netherlands....as you said, she IS the Head of State...until she decides / has to quit. And that involves representing NL abroad...

Complex issue, right?

 

[Rebafan81]

From another perspective it must be difficult to be in Prince Charles' position - almost at the age in which his peers are thinking about retiring from their careers and he has yet to begin the one role that destiny has dictated. Yes he has developed the very successful Princes Trust and has other interests but the real job has yet to begin, is dependent on his mother's passing and by then will he have the inclination and energy to even want it! While he has had the years to establish his family, there are some disadvantages of being the eldest son of a crowned young and long living soveriegn!

I totally agree with you, I think that the Queen has served her Country for over 50 years and should be allowed to step down, if that is what she chooses, and enjoy the last years of her life any way she prefers without the stigmatism that was associated with her uncle. I am afraid though that what we experience in our youth molds us for life. The Queen mum was so upset by Kind Edward’s actions that I believe this has influenced her daughter, that maybe she thinks she would be letting her fore father down if she didn't pass away on the job. It is a shame, especially in today’s world where privacy is such an issue for royals, that QEII can't step down and just enjoy her life after all of her unselfish service to her country.
I also feel bad for Charles because he will be too old to relate to most of his country. IMO I can’t imagine waiting until you are in your 60’s or 70’s to assume a job you have been groomed for your whole entire life. I think it would be good for him to take over while he can still reign for 20-30 years. I believe this will give William the same chance his father had to raise his family and ease himself into his future job.
On Queen Beatrix, I think she is a lovely lady and will do what is best for her country and herself. I think W-A should have a chance to raise his family without the responsibility of the monarchy on his back. Look what it did too this generation of Windsors, Mothers and Fathers need to be available to their children. Again IMO.

 

[fee]

IMO, the problem lies in the fact that most people see the job of the monarch as a job for one person only.
Many souvereigns defended their authority so fiercely that they never allowed their heirs to become second-in-command.
Beatrix and WA seem to have good working relationship.
They go on state-visits together, they attend events together and they really seem to share their workload (however evenly I don't know, but look to Denmark, no sharing at all).
Without abdicating and thus leaving the stage, Beatrix can gradually slow down, while WA shoulders more and more responsiblitiy. This way, Beatrix is still the figurehead, WA can still take breaks (for ex for a small paternity break) without rocking the system. If Beatrix needs a rest, or WA and Maxima need time out for their kids (whatever reason) the other takes over and assumes more appointments and I should think, the public would never notice.

 

[ysbel]

I totally agree with you, I think that the Queen has served her Country for over 50 years and should be allowed to step down, if that is what she chooses, and enjoy the last years of her life any way she prefers without the stigmatism that was associated with her uncle.

I think the English aversion to abdication lies more with the history of the monarch's position.

Marengo explained that the Dutch monarchy originated with the administrative position of stadtholder. Most people don't complain when an appointed government official resigns from office. This tradition makes abdication acceptable in the Netherlands.

In Britain on the other hand the monarch's position stemmed from the position of powerful feudal baron. William the Conqueror was the first of the present line who conquered England In a dispute with Harald over the throne. Henry VII over 400 years later defeated Richard III in battle to take the throne.

In a situation like that, it was very risky to abdicate because in a world where force ruled, the abdicated king could always change his mind and try to take the throne back again by force. Even if the King really wanted to abdicate, his life was in danger from other who didn't trust his promises and wanted to make sure he didn't change his mind.

Elizabeth II is in a very different position than Henry VII so I don't think her life is in danger if she abdicates but monarchies have a tendency of keeping some old customs even if the original reasons for the customs have disappeared.

I think the example of Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor, that Wilhemina referenced was unique because Charles V went into a monastery. I don't know but I think when he became a man of the cloth, his position in society changed so much that he would no longer be considered a threat.

 

[DutchJohn2006]

Common sense

To abdicate when a monarch becomes too old is nothing but common sense. They have done their duty and can enjoy their last years in some peace whilst it also means that the next one in line can start the job with the councel of his/her predecessor.
And they do not have to wait forever.
After the abdication of Queen Wilhelmina and Queen Juliana we , the Dutch ,have come to expect a monarch to abdicate and not go on forever.
I even think it's too much to expect from any person to go on and on.
Looking at events at several countries we should not be suprised if in the future royals will say "no thank You" and refuse the throne all together.
It has never been a position to envy and it's getting worse with the passing of time.

 

[Hereditary Mapmaker]

Marengo in post #38 touches on why I feel the way I do about monarchs and abdications. At this point in human history, we have developed the technology and wisdom that has resulted in much a much longer life expectancy for humans. Certainly in the last two hundred years we have seen some of the oldest monarchs but in the span of time that 200 years is a very short segment. If the current conditions of medicine (healthier living, better technology, advanced birthing methods), diplomacy (less deaths in war, better field medical treatment, less infection, etc.), as well as just overall healthier living had been in place over 1000 years ago, many of the monarchs that died in battle, from sexually-transmitted diseases, from an infection or the flu, may have lived much longer and perhaps abdications would be the norm.

I do believe that monarchs should reign for a long as they choose and should carry out their duties as long as they are physically and mentally able to do so. But there is something to be said for the transition time and assisting their heir in the execution of those same duties.

On that note, how does everyone feel about how Liechtenstein is handling this, with Hans-Adam transferring power/responsibility/authority to Alois, who will ascend to sovereign prince status upon Hans-Adam's death?

Mapper

 

[Marengo]

Due to the 40th birthday of the crownprince there has been much talk about his enthronement. Speculations when HM will abdicate and several polls. Apparently 70% thinks that the Queen should abdicate within 3 years.

Personally I get rather angry by such talks on the newspaper. It seems that people want change just for the sake of change. But thus far I asked two people about the matter who said that they though the Queen should abdicate soon. And here is where the polls are lacking I suspect. As a reason they don' t say that HM isn' t doing a good job, or that the Prince of Orange would do a better job but they both thought that HM deserved a rest. I suspect that most of the 70% are thinking among those lines.

Personally I liked Ton Elias comments about it, he said that HM was still doing a great job, she seemed to enjoy it even more then a few years ago and the crownprince still has a very young (and growing?) family. Ergo: there is no reason why Beatrix should abdicate in the near future.

 

[Henri M.]

Due to the 40th birthday of the crownprince there has been much talk about his enthronement. Speculations when HM will abdicate and several polls. Apparently 70% thinks that the Queen should abdicate within 3 years.

Personally I get rather angry by such talks on the newspaper. It seems that people want change just for the sake of change. But thus far I asked two people about the matter who said that they though the Queen should abdicate soon. And here is where the polls are lacking I suspect. As a reason they don' t say that HM isn' t doing a good job, or that the Prince of Orange would do a better job but they both thought that HM deserved a rest. I suspect that most of the 70% are thinking among those lines.

Personally I liked Ton Elias comments about it, he said that HM was still doing a great job, she seemed to enjoy it even more then a few years ago and the crownprince still has a very young (and growing?) family. Ergo: there is no reason why Beatrix should abdicate in the near future.

I prefer a system in which the royal prerogatives are handed over to a Regent(ess) but in which the Sovereign remains so.

This would mean the Prince of Orange being de-facto having the royal powers which lays de-jure in the hands of the Queen. This will be illustrated with the opening of every Act:

In the name of Beatrix, by the grace of God Queen of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, Etc. Etc. Etc.;
We, Willem-Alexander, The Prince of Orange, Regent of the Kingdom;
To all those who shall see or hear these: salute! Be it known:
Whereas We have taken into consideration that it is desirable that [The reasons of the law];
Thus it is that We, having heard the Council of State, and in mutual deliberation with the States-General, have approved and understand, like We approve and understand herewith:
[The contents of the law]

Given, &c.

For The Queen:
[signature of the Regent]

 

[Iain]

Due to the 40th birthday of the crownprince there has been much talk about his enthronement. Speculations when HM will abdicate and several polls. Apparently 70% thinks that the Queen should abdicate within 3 years.

Personally I get rather angry by such talks on the newspaper. It seems that people want change just for the sake of change. But thus far I asked two people about the matter who said that they though the Queen should abdicate soon. And here is where the polls are lacking I suspect. As a reason they don' t say that HM isn' t doing a good job, or that the Prince of Orange would do a better job but they both thought that HM deserved a rest. I suspect that most of the 70% are thinking among those lines.

Personally I liked Ton Elias comments about it, he said that HM was still doing a great job, she seemed to enjoy it even more then a few years ago and the crownprince still has a very young (and growing?) family. Ergo: there is no reason why Beatrix should abdicate in the near future.

I hope Beatrix goes on for many years yet. "Gaun yersel hen" (go on yourself girl) as we say in Scotland.

 

[Verde Esmeralda]

It seems that people want change just for the sake of change. But thus far I asked two people about the matter who said that they though the Queen should abdicate soon. And here is where the polls are lacking I suspect. As a reason they don' t say that HM isn' t doing a good job, or that the Prince of Orange would do a better job but they both thought that HM deserved a rest. I suspect that most of the 70% are thinking among those lines.

Personally I liked Ton Elias comments about it, he said that HM was still doing a great job, she seemed to enjoy it even more then a few years ago and the crownprince still has a very young (and growing?) family. Ergo: there is no reason why Beatrix should abdicate in the near future.

Indeed, there would be no practical reason to think that Beatrix would abdicate in the next few years. Has she ever said that 'she needed a rest' or that 'Willem is ready to be King"?

Anyway, again Story pops up a title that says "Willem Alexander becomes King September 6th, 2008" in this week's edition. Has anyone read it? What are the basements for that article? I know it is not reliable, but I am just curious...

 

[Marengo]

Gossip magazine Prive had am simular story, according to them there is a ´palace wisdom´ that says ´in het jaar van de acht, een wisseling van de wacht´ (a year with an 8, a change of guards) (enthronements in 1890/1898, 1948, 1980...2008?) They base their date of September 6th on the sheduele of exhibitions in the Nieuwe Kerk in Amsterdam, as it is unclear what exhibition will be around at that date.

Personally I think it is highly unlikely that HM will change her plans according to the sheduele of the Nieuwe Kerk, it is more the other way around. That HM informed the people of the Nieuwe Kerk about an abdication is even more unlikely. The magazines will probably go on guessing dates untill HM finally announces an abdiscation, so they will get it right in the end (after guessing 40 different dates ).

 

[Maxie]

You might be right about that, Marengo.
It's the same with all these magazines claiming that Maxima's pregnant. When you keep saying it every two weeks, in the end it will eventually happen and at that very moment you can say: 'Oh boy, aren't we brilliant? We predicted it!'

No, I think Queen B. will linger a little longer and I'm glad for that, she's a great queen.

 

[cristine]

After the abdication of Queen Wilhelmina and Queen Juliana we , the Dutch ,have come to expect a monarch to abdicate and not go on forever.

I have a question: the abdication is a tradition of the Dutch royal family? If Beatrix won't want to abdicate, she can be the queen till she die or she has to give the throne to WA?

 

[Verde Esmeralda]

Thanks for the info Marengo! I knew there was little to expect of this article...