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  #81  
Old 12-10-2018, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I understand the confusion, but it really is graaf (gravin) van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg. It is confirmed on the website of the Royal House (in English): https://www.royal-house.nl/members-r...ce-friso/title
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Thanks, I appreciate the source. There are indeed discrepancies between the website and the Royal Decrees: The website not only says that "van Oranje-Nassau" is included in the title, but it additionally says that "jonkheer van Amsberg" is a title, whereas according to the Royal Decrees "jonkheer" (without "van Amsberg") is a predicate.
I remain inclined to trust the Royal Decrees over the website regarding the legal definition of the title, given that the decrees are legal documents and the website is not. In Belgium family names are also unofficially referred to as a part of the title, even though from a legal point of view they are not.
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  #82  
Old 12-11-2018, 05:28 PM
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Please explain why Nassau-Dillenburg is sometimes placed after Willem's first name.
Willem (Nassau-Dillenburg) van Oranje Nassau
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  #83  
Old 12-11-2018, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
Please explain why Nassau-Dillenburg is sometimes placed after Willem's first name.
Willem (Nassau-Dillenburg) van Oranje Nassau
I have not seen anyone referring to King Willem-Alexander as a Nassau-Dillenburg, but his ancestor Willem the Silent, from whom all members of the Orange-Nassau dynasty descend, was from a branch of the Nassau family based in Dillenburg.
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  #84  
Old 12-11-2018, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
Please explain why Nassau-Dillenburg is sometimes placed after Willem's first name.
Willem (Nassau-Dillenburg) van Oranje Nassau
Because he was from the Nassau branch which resided on Dillenburg Castle. When Willem I inherited the prestigious sovereign principality of Orange from his cousin René von Nassau-Breda, the House Nassau-Dillenburg became known as Orange-Nassau. From all the many Nassau branches, the comital branch Merenberg is the only one existing and on the brink of extinction with only one lady alive.

Wilhelm Fürst von Nassau-Weilburg, Herzog von Nassau
x Pauline Prinzessin von Württemberg
= Nikolaus

Nikolaus Prinz von Nassau
x Natalia Alexandrovna Pushkina, cr. Gräfin von Merenberg
= Georg Nikolaus

Georg Nikolaus (von Nassau) Graf von Merenberg
x Olga Alexandrovna Romanova, cr Princess Yurjevskaya
= Georg

Georg (von Nassau) Graf von Merenberg
x Elisabeth-Anne Müller-Uri
= Clotilde

Clotilde von Rintelen née (von Nassau) Gräfin von Merenberg (*1941) is the last living Nassau from a legal male-only descendance.
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  #85  
Old 12-11-2018, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
Please explain why Nassau-Dillenburg is sometimes placed after Willem's first name.
Willem (Nassau-Dillenburg) van Oranje Nassau
Can you cite a source? I assume you are referring to the 'first' Willem de Zwijger (William the Silent; the forefather of the royal family) whose family was part of the 'Dillenburg' section of the Nassaus. See for example this explanation on Wikipedia.
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  #86  
Old 12-11-2018, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
From all the many Nassau branches, the comital branch Nassau-Merenberg is the only one existing and on the brink of extinction.
I presume you meant only the patrilineal Nassau branches, as the branch in Luxembourg is a long distance from extinction.

The counts of Merenberg never were Nassaus (the name "von Nassau-Merenberg" alleged on Wikipedia does not cite any source). Had they been Nassaus, Count Georg of Merenberg rather than Princess Marie-Adelaide of Luxembourg would have become Grand Duke of Luxembourg in 1912 under the Nassau family pact, which before 2011 gave priority to male relatives in patrilineal line (which he was).

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/nassau.htm
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  #87  
Old 12-11-2018, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Thanks, that was my understanding of Duc_et_Pair's explanation. In Belgium, however, it works differently: The legitimate child of a count (assuming that his title is hereditary) is a count(ess) even if they use their mother's surname. Les titres de noblesse sont associés à la personne, pas au nom - La Libre
That was not the interpretation ( or the position) , however, of the Association of the Belgian Nobility. In fact, in its submission to the government on the new name law, the ABN explicitly said that, in their opinion, titles of nobility should not be transmitted if the children carried their mother’s name only as surname.
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  #88  
Old 12-11-2018, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
That was not the interpretation ( or the position) , however, of the Association of the Belgian Nobility. In fact, in its submission to the government on the new name law, the ABN explicitly said that, in their opinion, titles of nobility should not be transmitted if the children carried their mother’s name only as surname.
It would be interesting to learn whether the Belgian government concurs with the ABN's position or the position of the specialist cited in the La Libre article. I have been unable to find any information regarding the Belgian government's interpretation. The point would have to be tested if and when a Belgian nobleman registers his child under the mother's name only.
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  #89  
Old 12-11-2018, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I presume you meant only the patrilineal Nassau branches, as the branch in Luxembourg is a long distance from extinction.

The counts of Merenberg never were Nassaus (the name "von Nassau-Merenberg" alleged on Wikipedia does not cite any source). Had they been Nassaus, Count Georg of Merenberg rather than Princess Marie-Adelaide of Luxembourg would have become Grand Duke of Luxembourg in 1912 under the Nassau family pact, which before 2011 gave priority to male relatives in patrilineal line (which he was).

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/nassau.htm
The counts von Merenberg were 100% Nassaus, but because Natalia Alexandrovna Pushkina was seen as a mésalliance for a Prince of Nassau, the descendants of that marriage were known as Counts and Countesses von Merenberg instead of Princes and Princesses of Nassau.

There has been a big dispute on the succession and the vast House of Nassau wealth when Marie-Adélaïde did succeed the throne of Luxembourg and in the end the Luxembourg Parliament agreed to pay an annual sum of 40.000 gold Marks to the Nassaus, eh... "Merenbergs" as compensation for their lost rights. (Similar to the compensation given to Arveprins Knud and his son Prince Ingolf in Denmark, when they lost their succession rights in the 1950's).
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  #90  
Old 12-11-2018, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The counts von Merenberg were 100% Nassaus, but because Natalia Alexandrovna Pushkina was seen as a mésalliance for a Prince of Nassau, the descendants of that marriage were known as Counts and Countesses von Merenberg instead of Princes and Princesses of Nassau.

There has been a big dispute on the succession and the vast House of Nassau wealth when Marie-Adélaïde did succeed the throne of Luxembourg and in the end the Luxembourg Parliament agreed to pay an annual sum of 40.000 gold Marks to the Nassaus, eh... "Merenbergs" as compensation for their lost rights. (Similar to the compensation given to Arveprins Knud and his son Prince Ingolf in Denmark, when they lost their succession rights in the 1950's).
According to Luxarazzi's summary, Count Georg of Merenberg's lawsuit was fruitless and his claim of having succession rights was not acknowledged, in spite of the 40,000 gold mark pension.

Quote:
At the time, there were three officially legal opinions by distinguished scholars. Two of them stated that Count Georg of Merenberg had no right to the grand ducal crown as his parents' marriage was both not equal and lacked the consent of the then head of the House of Nassau, Adolph, and was thus a morganatic one. This stance was also supported by Luxembourg's government and the Council of State. A third legal opinion, however, argued that as the last male descendant, Count Georg's claim to the throne was a stronger one than that of his female cousins born of an equal and approved marriage.

[...] He also filed a suit with German courts in Wiesbaden for the right of disposition of the Nassauisches Hausvermögen, the assets of the Nassau family.

[...] Having lost this battle, Count Georg also abandoned his lawsuit in Germany shortly thereafter. However, he didn't come away empty-handed as he received a yearly pension of 40,000 Goldmark.
Luxarazzi 101: Counts of Merenberg and Their Claim to Luxembourg's Throne

I have not seen any documentation suggesting that the Merenbergs were ever given the Nassau name or membership in the House of Nassau, but if it exists, please correct me.
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  #91  
Old 12-11-2018, 07:22 PM
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Yes, of course it was "fruitless" but he got 40.000 Goldmarks a year (a gold mark was on a gold standard with 2790 marks equal to 1 kilogram of pure gold) which was of course an eye-popping annual capital for those years. They would never have been paid this, were they indeed not male-line Nassaus. That is pretty obvious.
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  #92  
Old 12-11-2018, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Yes, of course it was "fruitless" but he got 40.000 Goldmarks a year (a gold mark was on a gold standard with 2790 marks equal to 1 kilogram of pure gold) which was of course an eye-popping annual capital for those years. They would never have been paid this, were they indeed not male-line Nassaus. That is pretty obvious.
If they were indeed male-line Nassaus, they would never been excluded from the throne of Luxembourg. That is according to the rules set down in the 1783 Nassau Family Pact and the 1907 family bylaw, which must be seen as more obvious than a large pension.

Note article 26 and article 42 of the Nassau Family Pact (prior to the amendments in 2011):
https://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/nassau.htm#26

Furthermore, article 1 of the 1907 Nassau bylaw (before the amendments in 2012)
Mémorial A n° 37 de 1907 - Legilux

Edited to replace the link with the correct one.
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  #93  
Old 08-11-2019, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
It seems to me that the arms of the Princes consort of the Netherlands were introduced into the heartshields of their children because they were men and not women, just as their titles and family names were introduced into those of their children (while Queen Wilhelmina for example never was a Princess of Waldeck and Pyrmont by right of her mother). Three consecutive princes consort was clearly sufficient to turn it into a custom which was followed for Máxima, thus the heartshield of Zorreguieta in her children's arms (although it confuses me why Máxima legally renounced the name Zorreguieta upon marriage instead of transmitting it to her children as the princes consort did).
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Máxima renounced nothing. Like Mathilde, or Fabiola, or Paola did not renounce anything. They just have another style, title, name and form of address since their marriage.
Indeed, the Belgian consorts continue to have their maiden names. For instance, Mathilde as a Princess was listed in a Royal Decree as Countess d'Udekem d'Acoz, in addition to her royal titles.


In contrast, the name Zorreguieta has disappeared from Máxima's name. Máxima as a Princess was listed in a Royal Decree as
Hare Koninklijke Hoogheid Prinses Máxima der Nederlanden, Prinses van Oranje-Nassau, mevrouw van Amsberg
Furthermore, she filled in as her "last name" in the 2007 census:
Hare Koninklijke Hoogheid Máxima, Prinses der Nederlanden, Prinses van Oranje-Nassau, Mevrouw van Amsberg

On a related note, I also do not understand why "Mevrouw van Amsberg" is included in her legal name, as that title was not conferred on her in her own right (only the titles of Princess of the Netherlands and Princess of Orange-Nassau).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
It is true that Máxima's children do not have the surname Zorreguieta. But they also no longer have their father's name Von Amsberg... The Government has given a reason, but this is about the Belgians, so better in another thread.
That is a good reason, if I understand you correctly: Only the name Van Oranje-Nassau will be inherited in the main line from here forward. But then for consistency, why did the Government not likewise decide that only the arms of the House of Orange-Nassau would be inherited by Máxima's children?
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  #94  
Old 08-11-2019, 06:27 AM
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Are Dutch royal arms inheritable? I know British royal arms must be granted anew each time
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  #95  
Old 08-11-2019, 06:32 AM
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Are Dutch royal arms inheritable? I know British royal arms must be granted anew each time
No, they have always been granted with Royal Decrees. A Royal Decree granted a coat of arms to the future children of the then Prince of Orange and Princess Máxima in 2003.
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  #96  
Old 08-11-2019, 06:54 AM
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I often wondered why Princess Mabel is not styled Dowager Princess of Orange-Nassau or is that term out of use now by the Dutch Monarchy?
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  #97  
Old 08-11-2019, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
I often wondered why Princess Mabel is not styled Dowager Princess of Orange-Nassau or is that term out of use now by the Dutch Monarchy?
In the Nobility of the three Benelux countries the word Douairière exists to designate widows of titled gentlemen but it is seldom or never used anymore. Like the word Freule exists to designate unmarried daughters of titled gentlemen but is seldom or never used anymore.

Let me give an example of real persons: Valérie de Guerre (1963) is married to Thomas graaf de Marchant et d'Ansembourg. Since the marriage her most formal style is: de hooggeboren vrouwe Valérie gravin de Marchant et d'Ansembourg - De Guerre

These days, she remains known as such, also when she would become a widow. The same applies to Princess Mabel. Because her husband had a royal title (prins van Oranje-Nassau) and a royal prefix (Zijne Koninklijke Hoogheid) her style until an eventual re-marriage is and remains Hare Koninklijke Hoogheid prinses Mabel van Oranje-Nassau.
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  #98  
Old 08-11-2019, 08:05 AM
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I had a feeling it would be deemed an out dated style to use in the egalitarian Netherlands.
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8th of October 1515 ; Birth of The Lady Margaret Douglas, Countess of Lennox
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  #99  
Old 08-11-2019, 08:43 AM
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Here an example:

Op den dood van Hare Koninklijke Hoogheid
Mevrouwe de Princesse-Douairière van Oranje-Nassau
geboren Princesse van Pruisen


( On the death of Her Royal Highness
Madame the Dowager Princess of Orange-Nassau
born Princess of Prussia )

https://books.google.nl/books?id=seT...3%A8re&f=false

These were the traditional laments published when a prominent royal passed away.

Ach God! De groote Vrouw, zoo lang beproefd door leed,
En altijd uit den smeltkroes weêr verrezen,
Wier ongeveinsde deugd gansch Neêrland hulde deed,
Etc. Etc. Etc.


( Ah God! The great Woman, tried so long by suffering,
And always resurrected again from the melting pot,
Whose sincere virtue paid homage to all the Netherlands,
Etc. Etc. Etc. )
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