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  #41  
Old 09-09-2015, 08:43 AM
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Titles for Willem-Alexander and Máxima following abdication

following this thread here on Máxima title as queen, i wonder what titles her and WA will take following abdication to Amalia. of course this is a long way away at this point, but i was dissappointed to see Beatrix being made "only" a princess again when she abdicated, and i hope this is reconsidered for Willem-Alexander and Máxima...

Princess Máxima's Future Title
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  #42  
Old 09-09-2015, 11:00 AM
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That is highly unlikely. After Wilhelmina, Juliana and Beatrix, I just don't see them changing it. After the death of Princess Beatrix, hopefully far away, she will be listed as Queen Beatrix again.

A different scenario would be Queen Máxima surving King Willem-Alexander. The last time this happened was with Queen Emma, née Princess of Waldeck-Pyrmont. She was Koningin-Moeder (Queen Mother) and Regentes because of her underage daughter.
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  #43  
Old 09-09-2015, 11:20 AM
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Isn't Maxima really "only" a princess but styled as Queen because of tradition?


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  #44  
Old 09-12-2015, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
Isn't Maxima really "only" a princess but styled as Queen because of tradition?


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Yes. At the time of their Wedding it was discussed that she should remain Princess Máxima after WA's accession but the then goverment ndecied to leave the Issue to the goverment who would be in charge at the time of the abdication. Her official title is now Queen Máxima, Princess of the Netherlands not Queen of the Netherlands.
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  #45  
Old 09-12-2015, 02:42 PM
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Dutch law says that a monarch upon addication is styled "Prince of the Netherlands" and that would be Willem-Alexander's title if he stepped down. Maxima, on the other hand, is already a Princess of the Netherlands (and Princess of Orange-Nassau) in her own right and would continue to be so if WA abdicated. In fact, those are her only true titles; she is referred to as "queen" and HM by courtesy only, and not by law.

In any case, I think we are getting ahead of ourselves here. There is no requirement that WA should abdicate in favor of Amalia and maybe he will never do it. Wilhelmina and Juliana abdicated for health reasons. It is not so clear to me why Beatrix abdicated, as she could easily have kept the job for many years to come, but, again, the fact that she did abdicate doesn't mean her son will do the same in the future.
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  #46  
Old 09-18-2015, 11:23 AM
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thanks for the clarification! it's interesting seeing all these differences in titles in the different monarchies...
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  #47  
Old 09-18-2015, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
It is not so clear to me why Beatrix abdicated, as she could easily have kept the job for many years to come, but, again, the fact that she did abdicate doesn't mean her son will do the same in the future.
The Queen herself stated on television (announcing her abdication):

"I am abdicating, not because my duties are becoming too burdensome, but because I am convinced that it is time for the responsibility for our country to be passed to a new generation. On the 30th of April this year, with the utmost confidence, I shall hand over the kingship to my son, the Prince of Orange."

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  #48  
Old 09-18-2015, 11:55 AM
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The Royal House Act 2002 says it clear:

Article 8
1. The presumed successor of the King, and the King who has abdicated the kingship, bear the title Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands

Article 9
1. The King, the presumed successor of the King, and the King who has abdicated the kingship, bear the title Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau

wetten.nl - Wet- en regelgeving - Wet lidmaatschap koninklijk huis - BWBR0013729

So, like Queen Wilhelmina, Queen Juliana and Queen Beatrix, also King Willem-Alexander will revert to the style he had before the kingship:

Since 4 September 1948
HRH Princess Wilhelmina of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau

Since 30 April 1980
HRH Princess Juliana of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, Duchess of Mecklenburg

Since 30 April 2013
HRH Princess Beatrix of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, Princess of Lippe-Biesterfeld

Since ??-??-??
HRH Prince Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau, Jonkheer van Amsberg
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  #49  
Old 07-29-2018, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by carlota View Post
following this thread here on Máxima title as queen, i wonder what titles her and WA will take following abdication to Amalia. of course this is a long way away at this point, but i was dissappointed to see Beatrix being made "only" a princess again when she abdicated, and i hope this is reconsidered for Willem-Alexander and Máxima...

Princess Máxima's Future Title
Following an abdication, Willem-Alexander will have the title of Prince of the Netherlands. That is determined by law.

As for Máxima, her title of Queen is merely a courtesy title. Her only legal titles are Princess of the Netherlands and Princess of Orange-Nassau, which she is in her on right. If her husband ceases to be king, I suppose she will drop her courtesy title and revert to using only her legal titles. I din’t think it is a controversial issue.

A more interesting question iIMHO is what title and style Máxima would take as a widow when Amalia ibecame Queen.
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  #50  
Old 07-30-2018, 02:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Following an abdication, Willem-Alexander will have the title of Prince of the Netherlands. That is determined by law.

As for Máxima, her title of Queen is merely a courtesy title. Her only legal titles are Princess of the Netherlands and Princess of Orange-Nassau, which she is in her on right. If her husband ceases to be king, I suppose she will drop her courtesy title and revert to using only her legal titles. I din’t think it is a controversial issue.

A more interesting question iIMHO is what title and style Máxima would take as a widow when Amalia ibecame Queen.
Princess,she would prefer to be styled Princess again instead of the pompous and old fashioned Queen Dowager or Queen Mother.
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  #51  
Old 07-30-2018, 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by lucien View Post
Princess,she would prefer to be styled Princess again instead of the pompous and old fashioned Queen Dowager or Queen Mother.

Officially Máxima still is prinses der Nederlanden. She is only Queen by courtesy. A missed opportunity to make the position of the consort gender neutral and non-discriminatory for ever, which was actually the intention of the Royal House Act 2002

de Koning &
de Prinses der Nederlanden

de Koningin &

de Prins der Nederlanden

---------------------------------------------

de Prins van Oranje &
prinses [....] der Nederlanden


de Prinses van Oranje &
prins [....] der Nederlanden
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  #52  
Old 07-30-2018, 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The Royal House Act 2002 says it clear:

Article 8
1. The presumed successor of the King, and the King who has abdicated the kingship, bear the title Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands

Article 9
1. The King, the presumed successor of the King, and the King who has abdicated the kingship, bear the title Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau

wetten.nl - Wet- en regelgeving - Wet lidmaatschap koninklijk huis - BWBR0013729

So, like Queen Wilhelmina, Queen Juliana and Queen Beatrix, also King Willem-Alexander will revert to the style he had before the kingship:

Since 4 September 1948
HRH Princess Wilhelmina of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau

Since 30 April 1980
HRH Princess Juliana of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, Duchess of Mecklenburg

Since 30 April 2013
HRH Princess Beatrix of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, Princess of Lippe-Biesterfeld

Since ??-??-??
HRH Prince Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau, Jonkheer van Amsberg

I like that fact that the ex-queens Wilhelmina and Juliana were buried with the highest title they held in their life: both as queens. So other than in life, in death the Dutch still believe in a kingdom forever...
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  #53  
Old 07-30-2018, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
I like that fact that the ex-queens Wilhelmina and Juliana were buried with the highest title they held in their life: both as queens. So other than in life, in death the Dutch still believe in a kingdom forever...
Immediatly after the passing of a former Monarch who after her Abdication holds the title of Princess,the Court as well as the Staats Courant will announce that the deceased will henceforth be known as Queen again.
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  #54  
Old 07-30-2018, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by lucien View Post
Immediatly after the passing of a former Monarch who after her Abdication holds the title of Princess,the Court as well as the Staats Courant will announce that the deceased will henceforth be known as Queen again.
To be more precize: it became Queen Juliana again "vanaf het moment van de bijzetting" ("from the moment of the interment").

Proof: the Order of Service for the Funeral of Her Royal Highness Juliana Emma Louise Marie Wilhelmina Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, Duchess of Mecklenburg, Princess of Lippe-Biesterfeld:

http://www.radio4.nl/deklassieken/nieuws-pagina/75
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  #55  
Old 07-30-2018, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
To be more precize: it became Queen Juliana again "vanaf het moment van de bijzetting" ("from the moment of the interment").

Proof: the Order of Service for the Funeral of Her Royal Highness Juliana Emma Louise Marie Wilhelmina Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, Duchess of Mecklenburg, Princess of Lippe-Biesterfeld:

Nieuws Pagina - De Klassieken - NPO Radio 4 - Liturgie bijzetting koningin Juliana

It is so ritualistic that a former queen who on abdicating became a princess again is only again recognized as queen in death as "late" as she is really buried - so there are at no moment two queens regnant of the Netherlands above the earth. Not that it mattered for the deseased but it's an elegant way to deal with the fact that the Netherlands know an interregnum but make sure the people of the future will know who the deseased was in life. For it surely would look strange if the history books are telling of king this and queen that but in the Royal crypt only princesses and princes are buried...
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  #56  
Old 07-30-2018, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
It is so ritualistic that a former queen who on abdicating became a princess again is only again recognized as queen in death as "late" as she is really buried - so there are at no moment two queens regnant of the Netherlands above the earth. Not that it mattered for the deseased but it's an elegant way to deal with the fact that the Netherlands know an interregnum but make sure the people of the future will know who the deseased was in life. For it surely would look strange if the history books are telling of king this and queen that but in the Royal crypt only princesses and princes are buried...
It is more or less the same with the abdicated Edward VIII who is also King again on his grave stone:

The Prince Edward Albert Christian
George Andrew Patrick David
Duke of Windsor

King Edward VIII
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  #57  
Old 07-30-2018, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
It is more or less the same with the abdicated Edward VIII who is also King again on his grave stone:

The Prince Edward Albert Christian
George Andrew Patrick David
Duke of Windsor

King Edward VIII
I didn't know that. Thank you. Fascinating!
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  #58  
Old 08-01-2018, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by paulette View Post
1. By Royal Decree of February 16th, 1966 is declared that the children from this marriage (then Crown Princess Beatrix and Prince Claus) would bear the style and title HRH Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands, Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau, Jonkheer (Jonkvrouwe) van Amsberg.

2. By Royal Decree of January 25th, 2002 is declared that the children from this marriage (Crown Prince Willem-Alexander and Crown Princess Maxima) will bear the style and title HRH Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands, Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau.

3. The marriage of Prince Johan Friso to Mabel Wisse Smit was conducted without the necessary permission of the Parliament. Prince Johan Friso was therefore automatically declined of the right of succession for himself and his descendants.

By Royal Decree of March 19th is declared that from the moment of his marriage Prince Johan Friso retained the personal title Prince of Orange-Nassau with the style Royal Highness and received the hereditary title count as well as the surname "van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg.

4. By Royal Decree of May 11th, 2001 is declared that the children from this marriage (Prince Constantijn and Princess Laurentein) will bear the title Graaf if male (Gravin if female) van Oranje-Nassau, Jonkheer if male (Jonkvrouwe if female) van Amsberg.

A distinction is made in the Netherlands between the royal house and the royal family. Not every member of the Orange-Nassau family is a member of the royal house. Membership of the royal house is restricted by Act of Parliament to the head of state, the former head of state, the members of the royal family in line for the throne, and their spouses. The monarch is head of the royal house. The present royal house consists of Queen Beatrix and her sons - Princes Willem-Alexander and Constantijn, Princess Catharina-Amalia, the daughter of Prince Willem-Alexander, countess Eloise and count Claus-Casimir, the daughter and son of Prince Constantijn, the Queen's father Prince Bernhard, the Queen's younger sister Princess Margriet, her husband Mr Pieter van Vollenhoven, and their four sons Princes Maurits, Bernhard, Pieter-Christiaan and Floris, and the Princesses Máxima, Laurentien, Marilène and Annette.
I believe the workings of Dutch titles are comparable to Belgian titles: there is no such title as "Countess of Orange-Nassau" or "Jonkvrouwe van Amsberg", but the surname "of Orange-Nassau" is used after the title of "Countess" and the surname "van Amsberg" is used after the predicate "Jonkvrouwe".

For example, the Royal Decree of May 11, 2001 says:
De geslachtsnaam van de kinderen die geboren mochten worden uit het huwelijk van Zijne Koninklijke Hoogheid Prins Constantijn Christof Frederik Aschwin der Nederlanden, Prins van Oranje-Nassau, Jonkheer van Amsberg met Petra Laurentien Brinkhorst luidt «van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg», met de titel graaf en het predikaat jonkheer.

Zij zullen zijn: graaf (gravin) van Oranje-Nassau, jonkheer (jonkvrouwe) van Amsberg.


(The family name of the children who may be born in the marriage of His Royal Highness Prince Constantijn Christof Frederik Aschwin of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau, Jonkheer van Amsberg with Petra Laurentien Brinkhorst is "of Orange-Nassau van Amsberg", with the title count and the predicate jonkheer.

(They will be: count (countess) of Orange-Nassau, jonkheer (jonkvrouwe) van Amsberg.)
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  #59  
Old 08-03-2018, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I believe the workings of Dutch titles are comparable to Belgian titles: there is no such title as "Countess of Orange-Nassau" or "Jonkvrouwe van Amsberg", but the surname "of Orange-Nassau" is used after the title of "Countess" and the surname "van Amsberg" is used after the predicate "Jonkvrouwe".

For example, the Royal Decree of May 11, 2001 says:
De geslachtsnaam van de kinderen die geboren mochten worden uit het huwelijk van Zijne Koninklijke Hoogheid Prins Constantijn Christof Frederik Aschwin der Nederlanden, Prins van Oranje-Nassau, Jonkheer van Amsberg met Petra Laurentien Brinkhorst luidt «van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg», met de titel graaf en het predikaat jonkheer.

Zij zullen zijn: graaf (gravin) van Oranje-Nassau, jonkheer (jonkvrouwe) van Amsberg.


(The family name of the children who may be born in the marriage of His Royal Highness Prince Constantijn Christof Frederik Aschwin of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau, Jonkheer van Amsberg with Petra Laurentien Brinkhorst is "of Orange-Nassau van Amsberg", with the title count and the predicate jonkheer.

(They will be: count (countess) of Orange-Nassau, jonkheer (jonkvrouwe) van Amsberg.)

That is correct but a Jonkheer (Jonkvrouw) is not a title but a prefix to designate untitled nobility.

So the children of Prince Constantijn and Prince Friso have:
a surname (Van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg),
a title (graaf/gravin van Oranje-Nassau) and
a predicate (jonkheer/jonkvrouw van Amsberg).


The Nobility Act and the Civic code describes that the surname is preceded by a title or a predicate.
So it is "Eleonore gravin van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg" and "Max graaf van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg"

There are only a few exceptions, in which a noble title "breaks" in a surname:

Wolthera Juckema van Burmania barones Rengers
(surname: Juckema van Burmania Rengers)

Elisabeth van Panthaleon barones van Eck
(surname: van Panthaleon van Eck)


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Old 08-08-2018, 06:37 PM
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Thank you for the information! But what I meant was that, according to the Royal Decree, the title is "graaf/gravin" and not "graaf/gravin van Oranje-Nassau" and the predicate is "jonkheer/jonkvrouw" and not "jonkheer/jonkvrouw van Amsberg", which I believe is in accordance with Dutch practice.
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