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  #21  
Old 05-19-2008, 08:12 AM
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Princess of Lippe-Biesterfeld; Jonkheer/Jonkvrouwe van Amsberg

Queen Beatrix and her sisters are bearing the name "Princess of Lippe-Biesterfeld" in their names. The sons of Queen Beatrix and Count Claus-Casimir are styled as Jonkheer van Amsberg, her daughers-in-law and her granddaughters (without Amalia, Alexia and Ariane) are also styled as Jonkvrouwe van Amsberg. My question is: Why aren't the sons of Queen Beatrix also styled "Prince of Lippe-Biesterfeld", why aren't the daughters of Willem-Alexander and Maxima also "Jonkvrouwe van Amsberg" and don't have a second family name "Zorreguieta", why aren't the children of Constantijn and Laurentien also named "Brinkhorst" and the Luana and Zaria "Wisse Smit"? Has it something to do that the Queen's daughters-in-law are former commoners?
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  #22  
Old 05-19-2008, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by principessa View Post
Queen Beatrix and her sisters are bearing the name "Princess of Lippe-Biesterfeld" in their names. The sons of Queen Beatrix and Count Claus-Casimir are styled as Jonkheer van Amsberg, her daughers-in-law and her granddaughters (without Amalia, Alexia and Ariane) are also styled as Jonkvrouwe van Amsberg. My question is: Why aren't the sons of Queen Beatrix also styled "Prince of Lippe-Biesterfeld", why aren't the daughters of Willem-Alexander and Maxima also "Jonkvrouwe van Amsberg" and don't have a second family name "Zorreguieta", why aren't the children of Constantijn and Laurentien also named "Brinkhorst" and the Luana and Zaria "Wisse Smit"? Has it something to do that the Queen's daughters-in-law are former commoners?
Doesn't it have to do with the fact that titles and surnames usually (with the obvious exception of the titles connected to the Crown) come from the male side? Beatrix and her sisters are Princess of Lippe-Biesterfeld, as their father, Prince Bernhard, was a prince of Lippe-Biesterfeld. These titles go with the male line, so they wouldn't go to either of the children of the sisters.

Similarly, Prince Claus was Jonkheer of Amsberg - but as he only had sons, and not daughters, these titles go from his sons to their children. I don't know why the daughters of Maxima and WA don't have the Jonkheer van Amsberg, though.

Also, Queen Juliana was also Duchess of Mecklenburg, because of her father, Prince Hendrik was originally a Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin. This is not a title of Beatrix, if I've understood the elegant video Marengo posted earlier correctly.

To reply to your final question, it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that they're commoners, but rather the fact that they're women. Last names go through the male. If you'll observe the van Vollenhaven family; Pieter van Vollenhaven isn't a royal, but his sons also carry his last name in addition to the of Orange-Nassau.
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  #23  
Old 06-23-2008, 11:11 PM
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Well I'll admit I dont speak the language, but still, thats quite the mouthfull!
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  #24  
Old 06-24-2008, 06:52 AM
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Perhaps it is easier to understand when it is written down?
HM Beatrix Wilhelmina Armgard, by the grace of God:
- Queen of The Netherlands
- Princess of Orange-Nassau, Princess of Lippe-Biesterfeld
- Duchess of Limburg
- Marchioness van Veere en Vlissingen (Flushing)
- Countess of Katzenelnbogen, Vianden, Dietz, Spiegelberg, Buren, Leerdam and Culemborg
- Viscountess of Antwerpen
- Baroness van Breda, Diest, Beilstein, the city Grave, the Land of Cuijk, IJsselstein, Cranendonck, Eindhoven, Liesveld, Herstal, Waasten, Arlay and Nozeroy
- Hereditairy and Free-lady of Ameland
- Lady of Baarn, Besançon, Borculo, Bredevoort, Bütgenbach, Daasburg, Geertruidenberg, Hooge and Lage Zwaluwe, Klundert, Lichtenvoorde, Het Loo, Montfoort, Naaldwijk, Niervaat, Polanen, Steenbergen, Sint Maartensdijk, Sankt Vith, Soest, Ter Eem, Turnhout, Willemstad, Zevenbergen

For those who read dutch, this wikipedia site might be helpfull.
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  #25  
Old 06-24-2008, 04:52 PM
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Yes it is, thank you Marengo!
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  #26  
Old 08-04-2008, 09:14 PM
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I dare someone to try to read all of the queen's titles without taking one single breath? I think I could not do it so many titles and in such litte time.Thanks for posting all the queen's titles I knew some of them but to see them all is wonderful.
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  #27  
Old 04-14-2014, 04:22 AM
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The governor of Limburg informed in September with the High Counsil of the Nobility if it was possible for the king to use the title 'Duke of Limburg' again.

According to the counsil, the title was never created by royal decree and thus doesn't have an official status. In the constitution of 1815 it was chosen not to list the titles of the king. However people are free to mention the title at culturally important events in Limburg.

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  #28  
Old 04-14-2014, 05:21 AM
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Interesting,if the Limburg title was re-created by His Majesty would it be the sole dukedom in the Netherlands?
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  #29  
Old 04-24-2014, 04:30 AM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Interesting,if the Limburg title was re-created by His Majesty would it be the sole dukedom in the Netherlands?
If it would be re-created yes.But there are other regions with claims to a Ducal title,like Gelre and Brabant,old mediëval Dukedoms.

As a Crown Prince the Belgian King Filip held the title Duke of Brabant too,referring to the Belgian part of the province of Brabant.We have what we call Noord-Brabant,to make a distinction and to not puzzle the Belgians more then they can manage...grin...
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  #30  
Old 11-14-2014, 07:24 AM
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If King Willem-Alexander will abdicate while Queen Maxima is still living, will Maxima then be transfered to HRH Princess Maxima of the Netherlands or could she remain Queen of the Netherlands?
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  #31  
Old 11-14-2014, 08:39 AM
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Not unless Willem-Alexander retained his title as King post abdication,which is unlikely as the last 3 monarchs have not done so.
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  #32  
Old 11-14-2014, 09:55 AM
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Not unless Willem-Alexander retained his title as King post abdication,which is unlikely as the last 3 monarchs have not done so.
The Royal House Act says:

Article 8, first lemma:
"The presumed successor, and the King who has abdicated the kingship, bear the title Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands".

Article 9, first lemma:
"The presumed successor, and the King who has abdicated the kingship, bear the title Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau".

This means that the king who has abdicated the kingship, automatically, by Law, without any necessary Royal Decree or Act, will be addressed with the titles Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands, Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau, as we have seen with Princess Beatrix.

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  #33  
Old 11-14-2014, 10:08 AM
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If King Willem-Alexander will abdicate while Queen Maxima is still living, will Maxima then be transfered to HRH Princess Maxima of the Netherlands or could she remain Queen of the Netherlands?
By law Máxima is and remains Princess of the Netherlands, Formally she is no Queen.

The Act on the membership of the Royal House says:
Article 2
"The title Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands can, by Royal Decree, only be granted to the following members of the Royal House:
(a) - the spouse of the King
(b) - [...]"

With this gender neutrality is obtained. No matter the gender of the spouse, he/she enjoys the style, rank and address of HRH Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands.

That is de jure. Now comes de facto: with a clever loophole the Dutch Government pointed to "social custom". It is tradition that female spouses of titled gentlemen can be addressed by their husband's title. The spouse of a Count is a Countess. The spouse of a Baron is a Baroness. Princess Laurentien did not obtain any title or nobility when she married Prince Constantijn. She is just referred as "Princess Laurentien" as the spouse of Prince Constantijn. In this very same tradition Máxima is referred as "Queen Máxima", purely by tradition.

She is not "HM Queen Máxima of the Netherlands". Instead she is "HM Queen Máxima, Princess of the Netherlands" see: H.M. koningin Máxima , prinses der Nederlanden, prinses van Oranje-Nassau - Parlement & Politiek
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  #34  
Old 11-14-2014, 11:03 AM
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Are the Van Vollenhoven Prince of the Netherlands (HH)
Are de Bourbon Parme Prince or Princess of the Netherlands (HRH) ?

No Lippe-Biesterfeld anymore ??
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  #35  
Old 11-14-2014, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
Are the Van Vollenhoven Prince of the Netherlands (HH)
Are de Bourbon Parme Prince or Princess of the Netherlands (HRH) ?

No Lippe-Biesterfeld anymore ??
Only children of a King or a Heir have the title Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands, Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau:

- Beatrix
- Irene
- Margriet
- Christina

- Willem-Alexander
- Johan Friso
- Constantijn

- Catharina-Amalia
- Alexia
- Ariane

The four children of Princess Irene have the hereditary title "Prince (Princess) de Bourbon de Parme" which is their father's title. The title is incorporated in Dutch (and Luxembourgian) Nobility. They are no members of the Royal House.

The four Van Vollenhoven sons have the personal and non-hereditary title "Prince [....] van Oranje-Nassau, Van Vollenhoven". The title is not incorporated in Dutch Nobility. They are no members of the Royal House.

The three children of Princess Christina are Mr (Mrs) Guillermo. They are no members of the Royal House.

The four daughters of Prince Bernhard also have the title "Prince of Lippe-Biesterfeld", which is their father's title. That title will become extinct after them. The chef of the House of Lippe, Prince Armin (cousin of Prince Bernhard) is genealogically a Lippe-Biesterfeld too. As chef of the House, he and his children are Prinz (Prinzessin) zur Lippe. So the name "Lippe-Biesterfeld" (since 1626) has now merged into the main branch of the House of Lippe and will disappear after the death of the four daughters of Prince Bernhard.




The children of Prince Friso and Prince Constantijn have the surname Van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg with the title Count (Countess) van Oranje-Nassau and the predicate Jonkheer (Jonkvrouw) van Amsberg. This is a new noble dynasty. Queen Beatrix and the late Prince Claus only have one grandson: Count Claus-Casimir, he is the only one whom can procreate the new dynasty. The thought behind this: the title Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands, Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau must indicate a close bond with the bearer of the Crown. So no far-away cousin somewhere with that royal title. It must remain "exclusive" for a small group directly linked to a King or a Heir.
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  #36  
Old 11-14-2014, 01:00 PM
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Can anyone tell me what Jonkhur or the female version, Jonkhvrow, mean?
Jonkheer is an honorific predicate held by members of the untitled nobility in Belgium and the Netherlands. The predicate is inherited by both male and female descendants, but can be transmitted in male line only, i.e. all children of a Jonkheer are jonkheren ou jonkvrouwen, but a Jonkvrouw does not transmit the predicate to her respective children.

When a family was admitted into the nobility of the Netherlands, all its male line descendants by default became Jonkheren or Jonkvrouwen, unless a title such as count, viscount or baron was also created or recognized for that particular family. Sometimes, when a new title was created, the legal instrument creating the title stipulated that it could only be inherited by the first-born son of the original title holder or by the "head of the family". In that case, all other children of the title holder and their respective descendants in male line would be also entitled to the Jonkheer/Jonkvrouw predicate, whereas the first-born son, if he survived his father, would inherit the title properly.

For example, before she got married, Queen Mathilde of the Belgians was a Jonkvrouw, having inherited the predicate from her father, who was a Jonkheer. Mathilde's grandfather, however, was a baron. The title passed in that case to Mathilde's uncle, who was her father's older brother. When she got married however, King Albert II decided to elevate Mathilde's entire family, including her father and siblings, to the rank of count/countess, with the title extending to all male or female descendants in male line.
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  #37  
Old 11-14-2014, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
Are the Van Vollenhoven Prince of the Netherlands (HH)
Are de Bourbon Parme Prince or Princess of the Netherlands (HRH) ?

No Lippe-Biesterfeld anymore ??
Prof. Van Vollenhoven's and Princess Margriet's sons hold the personal (non-inheritable) title of "Prince xxx of Orange-Nassau, van Vollenhoven" with the style HH. Prince Irene's children have the title of "Prince/Princess xxx of Bourbon de Parme" with the style HRH. The latter is a foreign princely title legally incorporated into the nobility of the Netherlands.

Neither the Van Vollenhoven children, nor the Bourbon de Parme have the title of "Prince/Princess of the Netherlands". The two elder sons of Princess Margriet were, however, members of the Dutch Royal House until the abdication of Queen Beatrix. The younger Van Vollehoven boys were also born members of the Royal House, but lost their membership when they got married without seeking the consent of the Dutch parliament.

Prince Constantijn's children, as also members of the Royal House from birth until the abdication of their grandmother, Queen Beatrix, could also have been given by law the personal title of "Prince/Princess of Orange-Nassau" (HH), but the Queen, under the advice of the Dutch government, decided instead to elevate them to the Dutch nobility as "count/countess of Orange-Nassau". As explained by Duc et Pair, they belong to the noble family van Orange-Nassau van Amsberg and not to the royal House of Orange. Their comital title is inheritable by all descendants of the family in male line and, hence, can be transmitted only by count Claus-Casimir if he has any issue. Since Prince Constantijn also holds the predicate of Jonkheer van Amsberg inherited from his father, his children are also automatically Jonkheer or Jonkvrouw van Amsberg, in addition to count/countess of Orange-Nassau.
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  #38  
Old 11-14-2014, 01:53 PM
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The late Prince Friso and his children as well the children of Prince Constantijn have:
- the surname Van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg
- the title Count (Countess) van Oranje-Nassau
- the predicate Jonkheer (Jonkvrouw) van Amsberg

This is peculiar because the predicate (not a title) Jonkheer or Jonkvrouw indicates a noble without a title. But they have a title... Count or Countess. Most likely they did this to stress the descendance from both Beatrix as well Claus: the last one was also of aristocratic descent. In Dutch law it is not allowed to "staple" titles into a name. This means that the highest title is used in connection with the surname. So the passports will show them as "[... given names...] Count (Countess) van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg".

Descendance via Claus von Amsberg:

Parent:
Von Amsberg (Adel) cr. Prince of the Netherlands (1966)

Grandparents:
Von Amsberg (Adel)
Von dem Bussche-Haddenhausen (Freiherren)

Great-Grandparents:
Von Amsberg (Adel)
Von Vieregge (Grafen und Freiherren)
Von dem Bussche-Haddenhausen (Freiherren)
Von dem Bussche-Ippenburg (Freiherren)

Great-Great-Grandparents
Von Amsberg (Adel)
Von Passow (Adel)
Von Vieregge (Grafen und Freiherren)
Von Gutschmidt (Freiherren)
Von dem Bussche-Haddenhausen (Freiherren)
Von Salviati (Adel)
Von dem Bussche-Ippenburg (Freiherren)
Von Chelius (Adel)
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  #39  
Old 11-14-2014, 02:58 PM
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May we say Princess Marilène, Princess Annette , Princess Anita , Princess Aimée ?
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  #40  
Old 11-14-2014, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
May we say Princess Marilène, Princess Annette , Princess Anita , Princess Aimée ?
Yes, if you like. They are married to a gentleman with that title so they can be addressed with that title. Like the sisters of Queen Mathilde can be addressed as Marchioness Pallavicini and Baroness Jansen, the titles of their husbands...
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