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  #381  
Old 05-04-2009, 10:25 AM
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they (I do not know which royals, I heard it on tv) waved to the people waiting at the Palace het Loo. There is a lane lined with trees that goes upto the palace in the park where very happy enthousiastic people were waiting for the bus and waving to them. Those people did not have an idea of what had just happened and out of courtecy to them, the royals waved back.

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Originally Posted by JessRulz View Post


When did they wave after the accident occured? Not once after the car smashed into the needle did a wave come from any member of the royal family. They were, like the rest of the spectators, in terrible shock. The only people which needed to be with the victims were the paramedics, and then later their families in hospital, not the royal family walking amongst the injured.
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  #382  
Old 05-04-2009, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Paty View Post
The President of Estonia sent a message of condolence to the Queen Beatrix

President Ilves expressed his sympathies to the Queen of the Netherlands
The message send by HRH Grand Duke Henri:

Ook rouwbeklag van Luxemburgs groothertogelijk paar - Koninginnedag 2009

courtesy hja
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  #383  
Old 05-04-2009, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by biboquinhas View Post
I just think that the royal family should have step out of the bus and be along with the victims and give their support to them in the street near them, be more close to their people and not only wave on a bus. On a moment like this they should not only fell sorry, but also make something with "their own hands".That would make a lot of difference. Of course we have security problems but there were many many police officers there that could have escolt some members of the Royal family to the tragic place just for a while, that would make a big difference!
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Originally Posted by biboquinhas View Post
Well because they are human being from flesh and blood I think that they maybe could have step out of the bus, of course that was a big security problem but they could have done it, that is just me thinking what they could have done... Of course I know that medical services where more needed at that time, but to me that image of them waving and them what happen to those people that were there just to see them again waving...I cannot explain better sorry!

With all due respect . . .

I honestly do feel that I get the general idea of what it is that you're saying.

However . . .

In my humble opinion, there might and could possibly have been a larger catastrophe had the royals even attempted to get off the bus. And as others have stated as well, medical personnel --- who would CERTAINLY have been able to assist the victims more immediately, logically and readily than any of the royals --- were on the scene and attending to the needs of the injured. In my mind, had any of the royals been so foolish as to leave the bus to go to the injured, their presence would have been hindering what was logically the first piority then, which would have been to attend to the needs of the wounded.

And their presence there might also have caused more people to be injured and killed, as it was not known at the time whether or not this man had any accomplices in the crowd. And by then, anyway, he had also clearly shown that he did not care at all who else he injured in order to get to the royals.

Also --- and I'm choosing to be blunt, here --- if their security people were worth a damn, anyway, then they would have kept any of the royals --- even by using physical force, if need be --- AWAY from any areas at all where the wounded/dead were, or were being worked on or attended to, should any of them have been so foolish as to try to move off the bus and into those areas.

As a sort of paralell example . . .

When our President was sworn in earlier this year, he and his wife decided to leave the security of their car and walk for part of their parade route (at least a couple of times, as I recall now) to the reviewing stand.

Had anyone with an agenda chosen to try to injure them, believe me, regardless of whoever else might have happened to have gotten injured --- simply by being in the wrong place at the wrong time --- the Secret Service security detail surrounding them and in their car would've hustled them --- physically --- out of the line of fire, or whatever, into their car, and out of there.

IMMEDIATELY.

I feel that Queen Beatrix and the rest of the royals DID meet the standard of what it is that I believe you're referring to and suggesting.

The Queen took to the Dutch television airwaves to express her and her family's shock and dismay over what had happened. And NO one who actually witnessed that footage, I believe, can doubt for one second her honest anguish and grief over the events of the day. She --- as well as other royals --- visited the surviving victims in the hospital. I have no insight at all into the inner workings of their security detail, but I would tend to believe that security for all of those visits was much heavier than it would have been otherwise. Yet the royals chose to go ahead and personally visit the wounded after the incident. They could just as easily have chosen to stay inside the walls of Het Loo (that's the palace they were in, I believe?) and be updated via phone calls, etc., regarding the condition of the wounded. Or just spoken to them (were it permitted) via phone. As far as I know, they will also be in attendance at a formal service of mourning and remembrance, later on this week. And, from what I gathered, by reading this thread, the Queen has already stated that the Queensday celebrations will be continued in the future, as per usual.

Again, I personally feel they've met the standard of what I think you might be expecting from them, given who they are and the circumstances involved.

These are just my thoughts and observations regarding what you stated earlier.
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  #384  
Old 05-04-2009, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by biboquinhas View Post
Well because they are human being from flesh and blood I think that they maybe could have step out of the bus, of course that was a big security problem but they could have done it, that is just me thinking what they could have done... Of course I know that medical services where more needed at that time, but to me that image of them waving and them what happen to those people that were there just to see them again waving...I cannot explain better sorry!
I think that if they were actually waving, it may have been something that they did out of shock. When people encounter traumatic events, they react differently, but it is very common to see people in shock exhibiting behavior as if the event didn't really happen at all. It is the brain's way of protecting the body. I didn't see anyone waving, but if they were, it is most likely done out of shock. Another explanation could be that they were waving at a child in the audience (there were a lot of children present that day). Not all children, particularly very young children, may not have been aware of what was happening, and if one of the royals waved, it could have been done for a child (which would make sense-we want to protect children and shield them from evil). I understand what you are saying, biboquinhas, but it really would have been next to impossible for the royals to get off that bus. They didn't know whether they were still in danger, and their security probably wanted to get them out of there as soon as humanly possible.
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  #385  
Old 05-04-2009, 02:42 PM
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According to newspaper the 'Telegraaf' the main target of Karst T. were the prince of Orange and princess Maxima. Apparently he said so much to the security officers when they held his head in the car.

---

Former prime minister Ruud Lubbers (CDA) was in the political programme 'Buitenhof' yesterday and also said that Queen's Day should remain unaltered, though in the future (after an abdication) they might want to limit the amount of people that are participating.

---
Palace het Loo placed a mourning advertisement in the NRC Handelsblad (and maybe in other newspapers too) commemorating the 6 victims:

Wilfrido Plantijn,
John Veldhuizen,
Netty Martens,
José van den Berg,
Ad Teunissen,
Roel Nijenhuis.
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  #386  
Old 05-04-2009, 02:52 PM
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Abdication ..? Queen Beatix may abdicate ..? Did the accident prompt politicians to rehash the possibility of the abdication? If it did, it is a rather sad development.
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  #387  
Old 05-04-2009, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
According to newspaper the 'Telegraaf' the main target of Karst T. were the prince of Orange and princess Maxima. Apparently he said so much to the security officers when they held his head in the car.

---

Former prime minister Ruud Lubbers (CDA) was in the political programme 'Buitenhof' yesterday and also said that Queen's Day should remain unaltered, though in the future (after an abdication) they might want to limit the amount of people that are participating.

---
Palace het Loo placed a mourning advertisement in the NRC Handelsblad (and maybe in other newspapers too) commemorating the 6 victims:

Wilfrido Plantijn,
John Veldhuizen,
Netty Martens,
José van den Berg,
Ad Teunissen,
Roel Nijenhuis.
So his main target was not HM Queen Beatrix, but Prince W-A and Princess Maxima?
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  #388  
Old 05-04-2009, 06:13 PM
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That is the conclusion of the newspaper indeed. When the security people asked him questions he repeatedly said the names of Willem-Alexander and Maxima:

Prinselijk paar doelwit - Binnenland - Telegraaf.nl [24 uur actueel, ook mobiel] [binnenland]
(in dutch)

-------------------------------------

From Dutchnews.nl:

Quote:
Royal attack: investigation continues (update)

Monday 04 May 2009
The investigation into Karst Tates' motives for driving his black Suzuki car into the crowd watching the royal motorcade during the Queen's Day celebrations still remains unclear on Monday.
The newspapers are full of speculation about the reasons for the attack.
The Telegraaf reports that crown prince Willem-Alexander and princess Máxima were Tates' real target, quoting police sources. The paper says Tates spoke to military police staff after his car smashed into the obelisk close to the royal bus and repeated their names.
This statement is considered essential to the investigation, the paper says.
Read the entire article here.
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  #389  
Old 05-04-2009, 06:21 PM
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An interesting article from the NRC Handelsblad:

Quote:
Will Queen's Day ever be the same again?

Published: 1 May 2009 19:41 | Changed: 4 May 2009 10:48

By our news desk

To freely mingle with the people was the very essence of Queen's Day and the hallmark of the Dutch royal family. Did Karst T. change that forever?

Queen Beatrix, crown prince Willem-Alexander and princess Máxima will attend next Monday's national remembrance ceremony in Amsterdam as planned. The government information service RVD confirmed the royal presence - an annual tradition - after doubts had been cast following Thursday's deadly incident in Apeldoorn. Amsterdam authorities say they are studying the need for extra security measures.
Read the entire article here.
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  #390  
Old 05-04-2009, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by lucien View Post
I'm quite sure she knows everything about that....

Prince Constantijn handed out prizes last night for the World Press Photo 2008.
This is what he had to say on the tragic events in Apeldoorn.
I haver posted it in his thread,but feel it also belongs here,as it expresses the
feelings of not only a first hand witness,but also one of the people targeted:

Het Koninklijk Huis
A clip of his interview with the NOS:

http://koningshuis.nos.nl/video/beki...-open-karakter

------------------------------------------------------
Animation of the route that Karst T. took:

http://koningshuis.nos.nl/video/beki...-koninginnedag

------------------------------------------------------

Interview of Astrid Kersseboom with the prime minister (on April 30th):
http://koningshuis.nos.nl/video/beki...alkenende-2009

------------------------------------------------------

Curious detail: various owners of black Suzuki Swift, like the one used in Apeldoorn, have reported vandalism to their cars. Sometimes people even show their fists to the drivers in anger... (as reported in the Telegraaf on sunday).
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  #391  
Old 05-04-2009, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
That is the conclusion of the newspaper indeed. When the security people asked him questions he repeatedly said the names of Willem-Alexander and Maxima:

Prinselijk paar doelwit - Binnenland - Telegraaf.nl [24 uur actueel, ook mobiel] [binnenland]
(in dutch)

-------------------------------------

From Dutchnews.nl:



Read the entire article here.
Thank Marengo for providing us with an English article.
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  #392  
Old 05-04-2009, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by sgl View Post
I do hope that the royal family members are able to eventually come to terms with this. I hope that they are able to find peace, whether it be through counseling or talking this over with each other. Events like this are traumatic, and everyone deals with them in a different way. I wish them peace.
I so agree with you. I really hope the royal members can find peace inside themselves because it was a terrible event for all of them. You never expect anything like this to happen to you, especially when you're a very beloved royal in your country!
I think events like this one traumatize everyone who watch them somehow. I believe I'll never forget that little girl and a man rolling over the floor... it was simply horrible. Now I try to imagine how traumatic and shocking it was to all those who watch it alive! The Queen is indeed a very strong woman, she deserves all the praises, and God bless the Dutch royal family.

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Originally Posted by sgl View Post
I think that if they were actually waving, it may have been something that they did out of shock. When people encounter traumatic events, they react differently, but it is very common to see people in shock exhibiting behavior as if the event didn't really happen at all.
True.
Not everyone exhibite "emotional" behaviours as Máxima (and other royals) did. If I was at Máxima's place I know I would express my horror right away just like she did but that's me, there are persons who don't act like this, and we should never jugde how people react. I read somewhere that those who don't react "immediatly" are more prone to develop post-traumatic stress disorders :(

So his targets were Máxima and WA? Then why did he do this against a bus full of royals? When the Police got close to him he was already dying, so maybe he said their names as he could have said any other royal name. It's so sad to imagine that this man hated WA and Máxima like this...
I still think he wanted to harm the Royal Family and to "punish" all of them for his situation , not only one or two members or if.
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  #393  
Old 05-04-2009, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by susan alicia View Post
they (I do not know which royals, I heard it on tv) waved to the people waiting at the Palace het Loo. There is a lane lined with trees that goes upto the palace in the park where very happy enthousiastic people were waiting for the bus and waving to them. Those people did not have an idea of what had just happened and out of courtecy to them, the royals waved back.
Thank you for that susan alicia , that makes it somewhat more understandable for them to wave if the people nearer to Het Loo did not know what was going on. The way it was said in a previous post, I thought they were talking about the RF waving while still in the area of the accident.
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  #394  
Old 05-04-2009, 08:25 PM
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I so agree with you. I really hope the royal members can find peace inside themselves because it was a terrible event for all of them. You never expect anything like this to happen to you, especially when you're a very beloved royal in your country!
I think events like this one traumatize everyone who watch them somehow. I believe I'll never forget that little girl and a man rolling over the floor... it was simply horrible. Now I try to imagine how traumatic and shocking it was to all those who watch it alive! The Queen is indeed a very strong woman, she deserves all the praises, and God bless the Dutch royal family.



True.
Not everyone exhibite "emotional" behaviours as Máxima (and other royals) did. If I was at Máxima's place I know I would express my horror right away just like she did but that's me, there are persons who don't act like this, and we should never jugde how people react. I read somewhere that those who don't react "immediatly" are more prone to develop post-traumatic stress disorders :(

So his targets were Máxima and WA? Then why did he do this against a bus full of royals? When the Police got close to him he was already dying, so maybe he said their names as he could have said any other royal name. It's so sad to imagine that this man hated WA and Máxima like this...
I still think he wanted to harm the Royal Family and to "punish" all of them for his situation , not only one or two members or if.
I don't think we will ever know why he did this. I believe that if he were to have lived, he probably couldn't even give a true explanation as to why he did this. He was a sick person, and his reasons, whatever they were, were most likely illogical. He most likely acted out of impulse and insanity, and there probably wasn't any sort of reasonable thought going through his mind when he committed this horrible act.
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  #395  
Old 05-05-2009, 03:39 AM
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About the waving.No one waved.

As the bus made it to the Palace there were many spectators cheering and waving.They awaited a RF smiling and waving,they instead saw a family sad,crying.The people there were blissfully unaware of what had taken place,they heard that only minutes after the RF had arrived.

All a few members did was to raise a hand,no-one waved.

People were disappointed at the time,but ofcourse later fully understood.

That it was Alexander an Máxima that Tates aimed,is nothing but a rumour among the Royal Constabulary Force.
It is anybodies wild guess as it is not confirmed.The commander who alledgedly said that to his troops,refuses to
talk.He wasn't/isn't in a position to talk anyway.Moreover,it is highly unlikely he was able to talk all that much at all.
He was unconscious most of the time due to his broken neck and the braindamage.People,anybody,in that condition
will not talk that much,utter a few words,yes,maybe.But meanwhile " we have heard him say" more then logically possible.
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  #396  
Old 05-05-2009, 04:27 AM
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I don't think we will ever know why he did this. I believe that if he were to have lived, he probably couldn't even give a true explanation as to why he did this. He was a sick person, and his reasons, whatever they were, were most likely illogical. He most likely acted out of impulse and insanity, and there probably wasn't any sort of reasonable thought going through his mind when he committed this horrible act.

He said to a friend that he was to take revenge on the security company that recently fired him,and that he was to proof that security in Apeldoorn was a mess.It wasn't,he just ran through four rows of innocent people to get to his goal after he was send away by security & police minutes before.
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  #397  
Old 05-05-2009, 04:52 AM
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I wonder if this incident will affect the Queen's decision about abdication. I really don't like to speculate and I hate the fact that Her Majesty's whole reign is passing with constant abdication speculations, but this incident could result in:

* abdication very soon (no need to explain why)
* Her Majesty's decision to reign for life (as symbol of of endurance and persistance)

I'm sure this incident will affect her decision somehow.
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  #398  
Old 05-05-2009, 05:19 AM
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I wonder if this incident will affect the Queen's decision about abdication. I really don't like to speculate and I hate the fact that Her Majesty's whole reign is passing with constant abdication speculations, but this incident could result in:

* abdication very soon (no need to explain why)
* Her Majesty's decision to reign for life (as symbol of of endurance and persistance)

I'm sure this incident will affect her decision somehow.
No,it will not.
As Marengo already posted a few posts above,by means of HM's Minister of State Ruud Lubbers
he said a change is not eminent nor will be for the next few years.As he is very close to HM,
this is her way of letting all know that she doesn't intend to step down yet.
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  #399  
Old 05-05-2009, 09:40 AM
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Belgian newspapers write that different religious services on sunday were interupted by people of a German sect who say that the tragedy in Apeldoorn is a punishment of God...
HLN Buitenland - Duitse sekte noemt drama Apeldoorn 'straf van God' (842906)

Duitse sekte: 'Aanrijding Apeldoorn is straf van God' - Gva.be
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Old 05-05-2009, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by biboquinhas View Post
I just think that the royal family should have step out of the bus and be along with the victims and give their support to them in the street near them, be more close to their people and not only wave on a bus. On a moment like this they should not only fell sorry, but also make something with "their own hands".That would make a lot of difference. Of course we have security problems but there were many many police officers there that could have escolt some members of the Royal family to the tragic place just for a while, that would make a big difference!
Good heavens! You have got to be joking. The Royal family stepping off that bus would have "made a difference" alright. It would have been nothing short of disasterous. They and their protection squad would have hampered the swift action of the emergency services for nothing short of gratuitous publicity.

Whenever there is a disaster I always admire the VIP's who watch and wait from a distance and do not decide to "visit the scene" as a photo opportunity getting under everyones feet and removing resources for their security and transport that would be far better used at the scene.

The Dutch RF showed consideration and concern and visited when the victims were able to cope with such visits. A tremendous display of 'Grace under pressure".
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