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  #121  
Old 10-09-2016, 05:01 AM
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Well, apart from that politicians try to make a story of it that isn't there, what imo *is* clear is that the Oranje family cares more about money than about history, otherwise they'd consider keeping it in the country even if they wouldn't officially have to.

But that the Oranjes like money is not new
That is not really true: almost no any royal family has placed so many valuables into foundations, exactly to preserve it for the future! The amazing collection showed at the Anna Paulovna Exhibition proves the Oranges managed it with care.

This painting was in horrorful state and the family ordered it's restoration. Undoubtedly for a good sale but how would you divide this huge painting with the 13 other grandchildren of your late grandmaman?
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  #122  
Old 10-09-2016, 06:35 AM
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Yes, Juliana might have foreseen this coming when she created the foundation; had the jewels foundation not been there, i expect a bunch of that would have been sold as well, exactly for the reason you state above.
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  #123  
Old 10-09-2016, 06:44 AM
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Yes, Juliana might have foreseen this coming when she created the foundation; had the jewels foundation not been there, i expect a bunch of that would have been sold as well, exactly for the reason you state above.
Yes, Queen Wilhelmina and Queen Juliana were unique in being the sole general heirs of their predecessor. Had Queen Juliana not created funds then the law would have peeped around the corner: at least the inheritance was divided in 9 parts (5/9 for Prince Bernhard, 1/9 for Queen Beatrix, 1/9 for Princess Irene, 1/9 for Princess Margriet and 1/9 for Princess Irene). Not to mention the 14 grandchildren and possible other beneficiaries of her inheritance.

Money hungry or not money hungry Oranges: had Queen Juliana not created these foundations, Queen Beatrix would have been forced to compensate her three sisters for their share. And later again when Prince Bernhard died... It would have exhausted her financial means completely, while she had an heritage to pass to her son Willem-Alexander. Her three younger sisters could continue to live as überwealthy ladies without worries, in comparison with their eldest sister, with an empty bank account but a full attick...
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  #124  
Old 10-10-2016, 06:30 PM
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According to RTL, the royal family has for decades received a -secret- compensation by the state for their capital tax (vermogensbelasting). The news station looked at secret goverment documents form 1969-1973; Queen Juliana received compensation for the tax that she had to pay from 1973 onwards. In 1973 the amount, which was 150.000 guilders in 1973. The number at the moment is unknown, but is included in the dotation of the king.

It was prince Bernhard -who else- who made sure that the compensation was added to the agreement about the tax agreement. The highest public servant at the ministery of finance wrote at the time to the cabinet members that he did not agree with the decision.

Oranjes krijgen al tientallen jaren compensatie voor betalen belasting - RTL Nieuws
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  #125  
Old 10-11-2016, 12:00 PM
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As a Dutch citizen I think this is rather unfair. This makes them seem much better than they are. They either pay taxes or they don't. This is stupid.
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  #126  
Old 10-11-2016, 12:08 PM
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As a Dutch citizen I think this is rather unfair. This makes them seem much better than they are. They either pay taxes or they don't. This is stupid.
NRC Handelsblad seems to hint that this has to do with the donation of the Crown Domains to the State. The monarch always received revenues from these privately owned Crown Domains (the vast lands around Het Loo on National Park De Veluwe). Princess Wilhelmina gave these domains as a gift to the State but the monarch could still enjoy revenues.

In the 1960's a commission found out that year after year Queen Juliana had to use her private money because of deficits in the budget of the Royal House. This was the reason this commission was established to review the finances and it came up with the Act on the financial statute of the Royal House 1972, exactly the period where RTL is speaking about. Apparently as part of the new income structure, the revenues from the Royal Domains were taken into a sort of transfer period, as these were always free from taxation because it was used to fund the workings of the Royal House.

We will know soon enough when the Prime Minister will answer the questions.
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  #127  
Old 10-11-2016, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
NRC Handelsblad seems to hint that this has to do with the donation of the Crown Domains to the State. The monarch always received revenues from these privately owned Crown Domains (the vast lands around Het Loo on National Park De Veluwe). Princess Wilhelmina gave these domains as a gift to the State but the monarch could still enjoy revenues.

In the 1960's a commission found out that year after year Queen Juliana had to use her private money because of deficits in the budget of the Royal House. This was the reason this commission was established to review the finances and it came up with the Act on the financial statute of the Royal House 1972, exactly the period where RTL is speaking about. Apparently as part of the new income structure, the revenues from the Royal Domains were taken into a sort of transfer period, as these were always free from taxation because it was used to fund the workings of the Royal House.

We will know soon enough when the Prime Minister will answer the questions.


It is!! Waiting for the big answer of the Prime Minister. But I have no big illusions of it...
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  #128  
Old 10-11-2016, 12:47 PM
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It is!! Waiting for the big answer of the Prime Minister. But I have no big illusions of it...
Usually the answers are very detailed, with references to earlier agreements et al. When the Government answers in 17 sheets A4, the media picks only once sentence. With other words: blowing up everything and when then the details come maybe, if lucky, a small article on page 7 or so.

The private tax assessments of the Royal House have to be handled by the inspector of the Tax Revenue Service, district The Hague himself and has to be reported to the State Secretary of Finances. The current Minister of Finances already stated that the tax-exemption as mentioned by RTL is not known to him.

Only recently the Act on the financial statute of the Royal House has been reviewed and modernized. A couple of years ago a special commission chaired by former Minister of Finances Gerrit Zalm has completely reviewed the King's Budget. Since then the way of accounting, reporting and the budgetting methods have been modernized. We will see what the Prime Minister will say.
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  #129  
Old 10-11-2016, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Usually the answers are very detailed, with references to earlier agreements et al. When the Government answers in 17 sheets A4, the media picks only once sentence. With other words: blowing up everything and when then the details come maybe, if lucky, a small article on page 7 or so.

The private tax assessments of the Royal House have to be handled by the inspector of the Tax Revenue Service, district The Hague himself and has to be reported to the State Secretary of Finances. The current Minister of Finances already stated that the tax-exemption as mentioned by RTL is not known to him.

Only recently the Act on the financial statute of the Royal House has been reviewed and modernized. A couple of years ago a special commission chaired by former Minister of Finances Gerrit Zalm has completely reviewed the King's Budget. Since then the way of accounting, reporting and the budgetting methods have been modernized. We will see what the Prime Minister will say.
Very much the same.RTL is behaving like a rag while Parliament has yet another doorstep to trip over or so they pretend..All amazement et tralala over nothing..But ofcourse,matters were already deald with recently,so there's really not all of a big big deal here.And NRC btw,has since long lost the predicate of being a Class A evening paper.

But it DOES become annoying that time after time there's this tiresome and uncanny non-discussion about costs of this or that,that should stop.
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  #130  
Old 10-15-2016, 03:06 AM
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At his press conference after the weekly Council of Ministers, the Prime Minister, Mr Mark Rutte, stated that neither Princess Beatrix nor King Willem-Alexander are aware of any arrangement made in the early 1970's. In every case there is not something like "a return on private wealth tax" as RTL News did put it (and which was immediately spread furtherer by all other media).

The Prime Minister stated that his department "still has to investigate three meter of files in the National Archives around the Act on the financial statute of the Royal House 1972". Then he will answer all questions of Parliament.

That Princess Beatrix and King Willem-Alexander are not aware is indeed likely. Since 1972 the State grants an income to the present, the future and the former King (and their spouses). The amounts were once calculated in 1972 and since then it raised with the general indexation for all civil servants. How would Princess Beatrix of King Willem-Alexander ever have known that in the original calculation of this sum there was maybe a compensation for the loss of income from the Crown Domains or something?

They just have an annual Budget. That Budget is administered by the Thesauriër des Konings (the King's Treasurer) who has an office full with professionals for that. Every year the Rekenkamer (Auditory Chamber) audits the Dienst van het Koninklijk Huis (Royal House Agency) and it has always passed the audit without any problem. Once the Prime Minister stated that the accountancy by the Royal House Agency was a shining example for all ministerial departments, services and agencies!

In short: when Prince Bernhard indeed arranged a compensation for something in the original calculation of the annual income for the King, this was not his responsibility but that of the Cabinet De Jong, which agreed with said arrangement. And it was a responsibility of all successive Parliaments since 1972 which all approved the annual Royal House Budget...
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  #131  
Old 10-15-2016, 06:03 AM
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'Koning en prinses Beatrix niet op de hoogte van belastingdeal' | NU - Het laatste nieuws het eerst op NU.nl
Indeed that's the story, but as the Oranjes are very money-conscieus i tend to doubt that really nobody in the family other than P.Bernhard knew.
If indeed it is true than this is a good moment for the Oranjes to make the gesture by themselves to suggest they start paying taxes from now on

google translated
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  #132  
Old 10-15-2016, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
'Koning en prinses Beatrix niet op de hoogte van belastingdeal' | NU - Het laatste nieuws het eerst op NU.nl
Indeed that's the story, but as the Oranjes are very money-conscieus i tend to doubt that really nobody in the family other than P.Bernhard knew.
If indeed it is true than this is a good moment for the Oranjes to make the gesture by themselves to suggest they start paying taxes from now on

google translated
They actually pay all taxes except two:
- the King pays no inheritance taxes
- the (maximum six) receivers of a state income pays no income tax

That the King pays no inheritance taxes is because the properties of the family were (and are) used for the royal function. After all the carriages, the tableware during state banquets, the jewels adorning the royal ladies, the furniture in the palaces are not from the state but from the family. In the meantime all valuables have safely been placed in foundations, so that article is more or less a dead letter.

That the receivers of a state income pay no income tax is also understandable. They are funded by the state. It makes little sense to give them a higher income and then they have to make tax returns with "aftrekposten" (deductions) which will be hopelessly complicated because what is private and what is functional, etc.

For the rest the King and the members of the royal family pay all taxes as any other Dutchman.

I immediately believe that Princess Beatrix and King Willem-Alexander did not know that Bernhard had been dealing again. Probably Queen Juliana knew but even about her I am not sure. Bernhard seems to have been the one the most interested in money.

In the 1970's the royal finances were reviewed: the costs of the palaces, the pensions of retired staff, the incomes from the domains in Gelderland, Utrecht and Holland, the use of private properties for state functions, etc. On a certain moment, after long negotiations, the Cabinet agreed with a new annual sum and it was calculated with A-components and B-components and whatever more arrangements.

That in 2016 King Willem-Alexander has to know how exactly the Budget was cemented from various arrangements more than 40 years ago is most unlikely indeed. Maybe Princess Beatrix should have known it but it was her adored "Pappie", King Bernhard, who did the deal. And Bernhard was not the type of man to tell his daughter anything. "'None of your business Trix. Daddy does best."
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  #133  
Old 10-15-2016, 12:05 PM
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Agree!
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  #134  
Old 10-22-2016, 11:27 AM
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As always there is nagging about the costs of the Royal House. The Raad van State (established in 1531, it is the highest advisory council of the Government as well the supreme Court of Administration: the King is President of the Council) has written some comments about it.

The underlying question is: how much may the monarchy cost us, the taxpayers? Are the Oranges not living a too luxurious lifestyle? Can it not be less, with all that pomp and circumstance? The Council provided an answer, appended to the Budget of the King in 2017.

According the Raad van State, spending on the monarchy can not be separated from the State as well the prestige and dignity of the monarchy. Which, according the Council, "applies in particular to the substantial obligations of representative character. The importance of the State shall entail that these obligations must be met in a befitting way." The Council of State referred to a Government position in 1969/1970. Already 46 years ago the Government stated that members of the Royal House simply have a grander -and costly- structure of their Household. As an example is mentioned: "the level of receptions, revenue and banquets, the representation, ceremonial, clothing, gifts and the like". With other words: palaces, carriages and uniformed footmen give, like a plane, an own extended website, a fleet of cars "cachet and appearance" to the kingship.

Attachment (in Dutch): https://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&rct=j...xLtPBg&cad=rja
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  #135  
Old 10-26-2016, 01:07 PM
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The Prime Minister has informed the Second Chamber that there is no "compenastion for wealth taxes" as part of the annual income of the King, as was claimed by RTL News. However it is desireable that it becomes clear what exactly the agreements were which resulted into the amounts as established in the Act on the financial statute of the Royal House 1973. After all: since then the incomes of the King has been based on that calculation and has risen each year when there was a general indexation.

In short one can say that the situation BEFORE the Act from 1973 was:
- The King was exempted from all taxes;
- The King received an income from the Crown Domains;
- The King was compensated for functional and material costs.

Because of the explosion of the welfare state in the 1960's, the booming economy (with booming wages and prices) and because the income from the Crown Domains went down, for years and years Queen Juliana had to finance the proper workings of the monarchy from her private wealth, which led to an undesirable situation.

The deal with the Act from 1973:
- The King, the Heir and the abdicated King (and their spouses) get a personal netto income fixed with general indexation (A-component);
- The named 6 royals also get an annex to their income for functional costs (B-component);
- The State provides in accomodation, staffing, etc.

In return for this agreement:
- The several privately owned Crown Domains became state property with right of usufruct for the King;
- The privately owned Soestdijk Palace and the surrounding domain became state property with right of usufruct for Queen Juliana and Prince Bernhard;
- The tax freedom for the King is ended: he has to pay all taxes except the constitutional freedom of succession taxes for inheritances from the King to the Heir.

There is talk about a freedom of ƒ 750.000,-- (circa € 340.000,--) from taxes because in return no facilities could be claimed for functional costs. With other words, the Tax Revenue Service says: "We do not disturb you for € 340.000,--, in return you do not disturb us with endless deductions for functional costs." All by all it is not that shocking and understandable.
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  #136  
Old 10-28-2016, 04:05 AM
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Yesterday saw the debate in the Second Chamber of the States-General (Lower House of Parliament) about the Budget of the King.

Income of the Princess of Orange
Several parties at the left wanted to prevent that Princess Catharina-Amalia, when she turns 18 years old, will receive a personal annual income of € 260.000,-- plus € 1.200.000,-- for expenditures.

The Prime Minister pointed to the Second Chamber that -at their request- in 2008 a Commission lead by former Minister of Finances, Gerrit Zalm, has investigated the finances of the Royal House. As a result a modernized systematic for the finances of the Royal House was introduced. All amounts were known and were voted for, unanimous, by the very same Second Chamber. For an example: the leader of D66, Alexander Pechtold, wanted to prevent Princess Amalia getting this amount but he himself in own person approved it in 2006. The Prime Minister accused some fractions of "populism" and requested "show guts and stand for what you yourself approved". The amounts of the incomes are regulated by "normal law". This means that a normal majority is enough to change it. Not clear is if the Chamber indeed will support an initiative Bill by some left parties to lower the income of the Princess of Orange.

The funding of the costs of the Royal House
The Act on the financial statute of the Royal House 1973 regulates the incomes and the budgets for expenditures of at maximum 6 members of the Royal House:
- The present King (and his spouse)
- The future King (and his spouse)
- The former King (and his spouse)

The incomes of these -at maximum- 6 members have been fixed with the general pay rise of civil servants. But what was the calculation which led to these amounts? Were there fiscal deals or compensations? The Prime Minister promised the Second Chamber to appoint a Commission to review the whole process which led to the Act of 1973. The Chamber agreed with that.

The King has to pay income taxes?
The constitutional income for the -at maximum- six members of the Royal House is a netto amount. All Dutchmen pay income taxes. Some parties thought the King should pay income taxes too.

The Prince Minister rejected the idea. This would mean that the income of the King has to rise, to a bruto amount, after which the tax revenue services slashes it with some 40-50% income taxes and it will lead to endless discussions about tax deductions.

Probably there will be an Inititive Bill by Labour to let the King pay income taxes. However this needs a heavy procedure with two readings: a majority in the Second Chamber, then a majority in the First Chamber (Senate), then elections, then a 2/3rd majority in the Second Chamber and then a 2/3 majority in the First Chamber.

Opening up palaces and the royal burial crypt
D66 thought the summer opening of Noordeinde Palace and the Royal Mews in The Hague was a succes and asked the Prime Minister if this could be repeated. The Prime Minister was open for it, to make it a regular summer opening indeed. The Royal Palace in Amsterdam is open for visitors, almost all year. As is Het Loo Palace in Apeldoorn. The private residence of the King, Huis ten Bosch Palace in The Hague, remains private, for understandable reasons.

D66 wanted a virtual sightseeing of the royal burial crypt in Delft, so that people could visit the underground mausoleum virtually. The Prime Minister rejected the idea: it is the last resting place of members of the royal dynasty. Out of piety and respect the royal burial crypt should be left in peace, so thought the Prime Minister.
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