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  #41  
Old 03-12-2019, 08:01 PM
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Location: Deltona, United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Political necessity often trumps justice.
Very often actually.

And we must keep in mind that since there has been no judiciary investigation that I know of about Emperor Hirohito's role prior to and during WWII, we don't know if he was:
A) Pro nationalism, including expansion of the Japanese Empire.
B) Maintained the traditionalist political neutral role of the post 1857 emperors.
C) Was kept out of influence, and only exercised what direct influence he had, towards the very end. (The shogunate emperor.)
D) Was politically naive, like so many of his subjects, and hailed the Japanese accomplishments while willfully closing his eyes, for atrocities.
Until he, like his people, began to feel the consequences by late 1943.
That the purpose of a trial to determine his guilt or innocence. He was one man ,the new Emperor carry on and unify the nation . He.could have abdicated and turn the throne to his son. So some justice could be served. If Hitler survived he would put on trial.
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  #42  
Old 03-13-2019, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunawalk View Post
That the purpose of a trial to determine his guilt or innocence. He was one man ,the new Emperor carry on and unify the nation . He.could have abdicated and turn the throne to his son. So some justice could be served. If Hitler survived he would put on trial.
Well, not so sure.
Stalin would have had no qualms about dragging Hitler through the streets of Moscow in a cage and then shot publicly. Perhaps that would have been the best solution had he been taken alive. I actually think so.

As you know towards the end Hitler was rambling and suffering from Parkinson. He would have been perfect on the stand!
But Hitler in a mode resembling anything from when he was in his prime?
I think Churchill, the old cynic, would have preferred to have had him killed off before that.
Keep in mind that Göring managed to disturb the proceedings pretty well and thrived big time in the last limelight.

The main purpose of the Nürenberg trials was IMO provide a moral high ground for exposing and eventually executing the main leaders - rather than just placing them up against the nearest wall and shooting them. - There was never any question of guilt. They were guilty.

However, and I know I will offend some by mentioning this, so be it:
Göring laughingly pointed out the irony of the Soviet Union being on the prosecuting side in regards to concentration camps.
Britain in regards to Germany's war of conquest.
And USA in regards to genocide - vis a vis the native Americans.

As for establishing the truth. Well, who on the Allied side were interested in implicating Vichy France' treatment of Jews?
Switzerlands role in regards to both Jewish and Nazi fortunes?
The deep rooted antisemitism in large parts of Eastern Europe. The Einsatz Kommandos got enthusiastic local help in rounding up and killing Jews - and Communists too for that matter.
As one death-camp commandant remarked when he told about the civilians outside the camps writing letters requesting clothes and prams, among other things from the camps - the Jews didn't need them... - "At least they didn't specify the colors of the prams they wanted..."

The purpose of such trials is not to ascertain the truth, but to ensure the right ones are sentenced.

After all after some de-Nazification, the next layer of Nazi-civil servants were pretty much left in place - just as in Japan. They were needed for administrating Germany and Japan.
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  #43  
Old 03-14-2019, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Well, not so sure.
Stalin would have had no qualms about dragging Hitler through the streets of Moscow in a cage and then shot publicly. Perhaps that would have been the best solution had he been taken alive. I actually think so.

As you know towards the end Hitler was rambling and suffering from Parkinson. He would have been perfect on the stand!
But Hitler in a mode resembling anything from when he was in his prime?
I think Churchill, the old cynic, would have preferred to have had him killed off before that.
Keep in mind that Göring managed to disturb the proceedings pretty well and thrived big time in the last limelight.

The main purpose of the Nürenberg trials was IMO provide a moral high ground for exposing and eventually executing the main leaders - rather than just placing them up against the nearest wall and shooting them. - There was never any question of guilt. They were guilty.

However, and I know I will offend some by mentioning this, so be it:
Göring laughingly pointed out the irony of the Soviet Union being on the prosecuting side in regards to concentration camps.
Britain in regards to Germany's war of conquest.
And USA in regards to genocide - vis a vis the native Americans.

As for establishing the truth. Well, who on the Allied side were interested in implicating Vichy France' treatment of Jews?
Switzerlands role in regards to both Jewish and Nazi fortunes?
The deep rooted antisemitism in large parts of Eastern Europe. The Einsatz Kommandos got enthusiastic local help in rounding up and killing Jews - and Communists too for that matter.
As one death-camp commandant remarked when he told about the civilians outside the camps writing letters requesting clothes and prams, among other things from the camps - the Jews didn't need them... - "At least they didn't specify the colors of the prams they wanted..."

The purpose of such trials is not to ascertain the truth, but to ensure the right ones are sentenced.

After all after some de-Nazification, the next layer of Nazi-civil servants were pretty much left in place - just as in Japan. They were needed for administrating Germany and Japan.
Yes I know the Allies commited their share of war crimes and the holocaust was the result of centuries of Antisemitism. Hitler had plenty of help killing the jews. But the holocaust more worse than crime committed by the allies. Trials are better than vengeance. In regards to the Japanese they committed their crimes in the name of the Emperor. Doesn't mean he guilty but a trial should determine his guilt or innocence. Since he's dead now it's a mystery. I know that sometimes the guilty get away with their crimes.
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  #44  
Old 03-14-2019, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Lunawalk View Post
Yes I know the Allies commited their share of war crimes and the holocaust was the result of centuries of Antisemitism. Hitler had plenty of help killing the jews. But the holocaust more worse than crime committed by the allies. Trials are better than vengeance. In regards to the Japanese they committed their crimes in the name of the Emperor. Doesn't mean he guilty but a trial should determine his guilt or innocence. Since he's dead now it's a mystery. I know that sometimes the guilty get away with their crimes.
Oh, I'm not trying to compare war-crimes.

I'm merely pointing out that Göring found it hypocritical for the main adversaries of in his case Germany being:
The largest colonial empire the world has ever seen.
A regime that put I don't know how many millions in gulags.
An expanding country that steamrolled the indigenous people.

There is no question that Japan committed many systematic atrocities, especially in China, the question still remains to what extent the Emperor knew.
Keep in mind that Japanese army already by the late 20's operates as a state within the state.
And the Kwantung army (The Japanese army in China) operated outside the social norms of Japan. (It's a horrific but most fascinating study in mass psychology by a homogeneous group of people no longer adhering to the social norms of their own society.)
Everything official in Japan was in the name emperor.
Every Japanese owned absolute allegiance to the Emperor for being so fortunate to be Japanese.
Just as every Japanese owed (and still do) their parents for giving them life.
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  #45  
Old 08-17-2019, 01:53 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Northamptonshire, United Kingdom
Posts: 112
This is a very interesting thread covering many controversial topics.

Both Japanese state visits to the UK in 1971 & 1998 were not universally welcomed. Neither was the visit by Hirohito to the Netherlands in 1971.

Earl Mountbatten did not attend the 1971 state banquet & both visits were protested by former British prisoners of war. Some of them turned their backs on the carriage procession in the mall & held a candle lit vigil outside the Japanese embassy.

Hirohito was booed & jeered at when he went to the Netherlands. One man even lunched towards the car carrying the emperor & Japanese flags were publicly burnt. Many Dutch had suffered terribly after the fall of the Dutch East Indies.

Clearly they did not think that justice had ever been done for them. Sadly most of them have now passed on. The greatest generation.
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