Sarah, Duchess of York Current Events 7: December 2006-February 2007

[Warren]

It sounds like a "disposable" relationship.

"Disposable"?? Anything which has endured in one form or another for over 20 years can hardly be dismissed as "disposable"!

 

[Sereta]

"Disposable"?? Anything which has endured in one form or another for over 20 years can hardly be dismissed as "disposable"!

Well, when people only live together as a couple when they feel like it and still date other people, then yes to me that sounds like a disposable relationship. Not much of a commitment. It sounds dysfuntional to say the least.

 

[Avareenah]

I agree with Sereta and, personally, I don't think their relationship is all that wonderful for their children, contrary to popular opinion. What does it teach them about the serious commitment of marriage when their parents divorce but simply carry on as before? I don't understand how divorced couples can still be "good friends". If that's the case, there should be no need for them to divorce in the first place. Obviously, a cordial relationship is necessary where children are involved but anything more is...strange...in my opinion.

Sarah couldn't handle the self-control needed for royal life - that's why she divorced Andrew who, to his credit, has stuck by her thick and thin.

They both see other people, though apparently sometimes live as a "married" couple.

I don't see that as positive for the young princesses at all.

 

[Zonk]

I love it how everyone automatically assumes that they are sleeping together. Because a man and a woman just can't be friends, even after a marriage and two kids.

 

[Avareenah]

Just friends, living together in the same house? Don't think so!

 

[Warren]

Yes, remaining on good terms with one's ex is regarded by some of our members as "dysfunctional" and setting a bad example for the children. An acrimonious splitup is apparently the preferred and better option for all concerned.

 

[Skydragon]

Nobody has said it has to be an acrimonious divorce, nobody is suggesting that they can't remain friends. It does send out the wrong signals, it is telling the world and the daughters, that Sarah can have her cake and eat it!
If Andrew had another partner and Sarah was allowed to stay by that partner, that is one thing. For Andrew and Sarah to be living as a couple, whatever it involves, is tacky and wrong.

"new partners often don’t understand their close relationship. She said: “If we have boy and girlfriends it does have an effect."

Oh, how surprising!

 

[HighGoalHighDreams]

Do not forget that Andrew professes to belong to the Church of England. This relationship as described by them is not right in the eyes of the church, and there is where I have my beef. (I would be glad to elaborate on that, but please PT me if you wish to discuss the point- otherwise, this thread will turn into a heated religous discussion that has no prayer of staying on topic!)

 

[sophie25]

Actually the Church of England is one institution that wouldn't have a problem with them sleeping together because in the eyes of the Church they are still married. Like the Catholic Church it dosn't recognise divorce and a marriage can only be dissolved on the death of one or both partners. That's why Camilla and Charles could only get a blessing but not re-married because in the eyes of the Church Andrew Parker-Bowles is still her husband.

 

[HighGoalHighDreams]

Yes- but that's what makes it so their relationships are wrong in the eyes of the church, that and other things.

 

[Skydragon]

Actually Angela, the CoE would still have a problem with it. Even though they did not officially accept the divorce for Camilla, most vicars will marry divorced couples. The problem arose for C & C because Charles will one day be the head of the CoE and of course Camilla was blamed by the press and the public for the breakup of Charles' marriage. We now know that wasn't entirely true but....

They would expect Sarah and Andrew to remarry, to make it legal and acceptable, until they do they are not married in the eyes of the church or the law.

 

[ysbel]

Nobody has said it has to be an acrimonious divorce, nobody is suggesting that they can't remain friends. It does send out the wrong signals, it is telling the world and the daughters, that Sarah can have her cake and eat it!
If Andrew had another partner and Sarah was allowed to stay by that partner, that is one thing. For Andrew and Sarah to be living as a couple, whatever it involves, is tacky and wrong.

"new partners often don’t understand their close relationship. She said: “If we have boy and girlfriends it does have an effect."

Oh, how surprising!

I'm getting sick of the phrase 'have your cake and eat it too' It was used with Charles, Camilla, Sarah, and now even Kate and I find it used when people don't like a person and get angry because that person is apparently not suffering enough for the sins they have committed. So if Sarah isn't suffering enough for you skydragon, so sorry for that but I consider it a point in her favor that she's refusing to ride the guilt trip that everybody wants to put her on. I said the same thing about Camilla.

I also fail to see how Beatrice and Eugenie will benefit from seeing their mother and father dragged through the gutter because they couldn't end their relationship with the marriage. How inspiring for the girls, how uplifting to see their parents suffer from the indignations of others, what utter hogwash all this moralistic preening is. It was there was Charles and Camilla, its happening with Kate Middleton and its ugly and vicious no matter what form it takes and who the target is.

On the contrary, I think Andrew's and Sarah's relationship is wonderful for the girls. They see the two most important people in their lives getting along and having a relationship that includes being concerned with the girls. Most children of a divorce would give their right arm for parents like that.

Now having said that, I think that what is good for the girls is not good for Andrew and Sarah. For themselves, I think they need to break it up and find somebody else. But neither one apparently wants to; I think they're using each other to escape having to make a real commitment to someone else. If Andrew found a marriageable woman, he would have to make a real effort to sustain an relationship within the confines of the royal family. If Sarah found someone, she would have to work hard to make it work too given a new husband would be in the uncomfortable position of having princesses as stepdaughters. Neither one wants that pressure it seems.

Yeah, its weak but its not the abomination that others make it out to be and the girls do benefit.

 

[Skydragon]

What else could you call it ysbel, Sarah lives as a couple with her ex husband, but still dates and presumably sleeps with new boyfriends. How else could that possibly be described.

I also fail to see how Beatrice and Eugenie will benefit from seeing their mother and father dragged through the gutter because they couldn't end their relationship with the marriage.

It has nothing to do with expecting her to be on a guilt trip for the rest of her life, normal people 'suffer', (which only means to go through). Sarah just seems to expect everything to go on as if nothing has happened. You fail to see any mixed messages, others fail to see how there can be anything but. Friendship yes, relationship no, if they feel that strongly about one another get married. They clearly don't feel that strongly, they just want to play at it all! Would you think it's OK for Sarah to have stayed married to Andrew and continued with her lover, because she felt strongly about that relationship and couldn't end it?

I think Andrew's and Sarah's relationship is wonderful for the girls. They see the two most important people in their lives getting along and having a relationship that includes being concerned with the girls.

If they were that concerned for the girls, Sarah wouldn't have gone in for a bit of toe sucking or Andrew would have stood by her when she was outed!
As I said, friendship after a divorce, I'm all for it, invite her and her partner to stay, fantastic, announce to the world in general that you live as a couple, tacky. I wonder how Andrew feels about yet another tell a bit interview with his ex wife.

Yeah, its weak but its not the abomination that others make it out to be and the girls do benefit.

So after they marry and possibly divorce, because, well we can still live together 'as a couple', you will still think it's OK. I don't believe I have called or inferred it is an abomination, the label I put on it is tacky!

 

[ysbel]

It has nothing to do with expecting her to be on a guilt trip for the rest of her life. You fail to see any mixed messages, others fail to see how there can be anything but. Friendship yes, relationship no, if they feel that strongly about one another get married. They clearly don't feel that strongly, they just want to play at it all! Would you think it's OK for Sarah to have stayed married to Andrew and continued with her lover, because she felt strongly about that realtionship and couldn't end it?
If they were that concerned for the girls, Sarah wouldn't have gone in for a bit of toe sucking or Andrew would have stood by her when she was outed!
As I said, friendship after a divorce, I'm all for it, invite her and her partner to stay, fantastic, announce to the world in general that you live as a couple, tacky. I wonder how Andrew feels about yet another tell a bit interview with his ex wife.

So after they marry and possibly divorce, because, well we can still live together 'as a couple', you will still think it's OK. I don't believe I have called or inferred it is an abomination, the label I put on it is tacky!

I'm not saying its OK;the relationship is putting Andrew and Sarah in a holding pattern and keeping them from moving on. Its definitely not good for them; but it is good for the girls because they see the two most important people of their lives working together towards a common goal.

I totally agree with you that the toe sucking and letting Beatrice go around naked in front of Sarah's boyfriend was not good for the girls, but for Sarah and Andrew to keep up their relationship with each other I think is definitely good for the girls-the girls are probably the only beneficiaries of the arrangement.

I think its hurting Sarah and Andrew the most but after several years, it looks like they're not going to change so if it only hurts them and doesn't hurt the girls what can the rest of the world do?

 

[Zonk]

First of all...who says they are having a relationship in the true sense. She stays with him when she is in London. She could be on the other side of the house for all anyone knows.

You seem to know alot of what Sarah knows and how she is thinking? Do you speak with her on a regular? Is that how you know "Sarah expects things to go on as if nothing ever happened?" Sarah knows things are different each and every Christmas when her daughters go to spend Christmas with her ex in laws. I don't know her personally, but I am sure she gets it.

 

[Skydragon]

I'm not saying its OK;the relationship is putting Andrew and Sarah in a holding pattern and keeping them from moving on. Its definitely not good for them; but it is good for the girls because they see the two most important people of their lives working together towards a common goal.
I totally agree with you that the toe sucking and letting Beatrice go around naked in front of Sarah's boyfriend was not good for the girls, but for Sarah and Andrew to keep up their relationship with each other I think is definitely good for the girls-the girls are probably the only beneficiaries of the arrangement.
I think its hurting Sarah and Andrew the most but after several years, it looks like they're not going to change so if it only hurts them and doesn't hurt the girls what can the rest of the world do?

I don't even have a problem with the toe sucking, I thought she was wrong to have a casual relationship with the chap in the pool and if she had stayed with Andrew, that would have been great, (even though I didn't like her boisterous behaviour and lack of decorum).
I do seriously think it is wonderful if Sarah and Andrew are the best of friends and tell each other everything. I just can't accept that it is acceptable for them to be pretending they are a couple. Sarah didn't say they live as man and wife, but she didn't say she didn't. The girls were hopeful of her being invited back into the fold for certain events and with one interview, she has probably blown it.

 

[Zonk]

Skydragon...I would agree that Sarah has always been her worst enemy (not even talking about the toe sucking). She doesn't know the word discretion.

 

[Sister Morphine]

I'd rather exes be too friendly than overly bitter. Having had friends with divorced parents and seeing both sides of the coin (parents were either overly friendly or they were barely on speaking terms), I'd say that what is going on right now between Andrew and Sarah is 1000x better than if they were barely unable to maintain eye contact without breaking out into a fight.

 

[Skydragon]

You seem to know alot of what Sarah knows and how she is thinking? Do you speak with her on a regular? Is that how you know "Sarah expects things to go on as if nothing ever happened?"

You seem to have missed vital words out in the section you quote - just seems to expect......

 

[Zonk]

My mistake. Whether you add those two words or not...my point remains the same. She knows things are different.

 

[Skydragon]

I'd rather exes be too friendly than overly bitter. Having had friends with divorced parents and seeing both sides of the coin (parents were either overly friendly or they were barely on speaking terms), I'd say that what is going on right now between Andrew and Sarah is 1000x better than if they were barely unable to maintain eye contact without breaking out into a fight.

I too have known many couples from both sides, but, I only know of three couples that have this 'arrangement'. One couple really split having fallen out over a new one night stand. The children were devastated as you can imagine, after living with this arrangement for 12 years. One couple remarried, divorced again to the childrens relief. They now have very little contact with each other, the can't live with you, can't live without you syndrome. We are all still waiting to see what happens with the other 'couple'.

 

[ysbel]

The girls were hopeful of her being invited back into the fold for certain events and with one interview, she has probably blown it.

I see what you're saying, skydragon. But I think that decision rests with the Queen and I think its much harder now to predict whether Sarah's comments have done any lasting damage with the Queen.

Quite frankly, I don't see the Queen shutting Sarah out for claiming to have a relationship with Andrew. I think the Queen may shut Sarah out for the company Sarah has been keeping which is questionable at best.

 

[Zonk]

I see Sarah not getting invited to things because Phillip can't stand her. I think as low as the occassion was low key The Queen has no problem Sarah being invited. She loves Andrew....so if it makes him and her grandchildren happy..she is cool with it.

The most profile event was the Garter ceremony and thats because Andrew was invested. You won't see her at next year's ceremony.

 

[ysbel]

I see Sarah not getting invited to things because Phillip can't stand her. I think as low as the occassion was low key The Queen has no problem Sarah being invited. She loves Andrew....so if it makes him and her grandchildren happy..she is cool with it.

The most profile event was the Garter ceremony and thats because Andrew was invested. You won't see her at next year's ceremony.

I don't see Prince Philip wearing the pants in the family. Philip has never liked Sarah but she got invited to Balmoral and the Order of the Garter.

I think the Queen is more forgiving than many of Her Majesty's subjects but she is from another generation and Sarah's actions are going to be totally alien to the Queen's sense of dignity and propriety. So I think there's a limit to how welcoming the Queen can be without sacrificing her own sense of decorum and dignity.

Being the compassionate person she is, I think the Queen will try very hard for the sake of the grandchildren.

 

[Sister Morphine]

If Beatrice and Eugenie were younger, I would say that the way Andrew and Sarah are carrying on was inappropriate and giving the kids false hopes/ideas that they were getting back together. However, they're what.....18 and 16 now?

I can see how the Queen might not be pleased with it, but as long as the kids are being cared for and they are happy.....who's to intervene?

 

[Elspeth]

I think Andrew and Sarah's situation is rather different from many people's because being Andrew's wife comes with a lot of baggage involving duties and expectations of behaviour, which it seems, for one reason or other, Sarah couldn't or wouldn't accept. If she loves Andrew the person but can't tolerate the Duchess of York position, I suppose this is one way to compromise. At least the girls are old enough now to know what's going on and hopefully understand it. Only time will tell whether this arrangement has done anything detrimental to their ability to form strong relationships and have steady marriages.

 

[HighGoalHighDreams]

By all the inside accounts and comments I've ever read, Philip is DEFINITELY in charge of his household. That doesn't mean that he doesn't, on occasion, difer to his wife, but I firmly believe that he is indeed in charge of their private household.

I don't see Prince Philip wearing the pants in the family

 

[Alison20]

Hm, where to start? Sarah living off the taxpayer when she stays with Andrew? To the best of my knowledge his house was bought as a wedding present by the Queen. So it is not being run by tax-payers money. Andrew had also had a career as a naval officer, and has his own private money. Any small amount of taxpayers money that went that way would be too small to notice. (I think each person in the UK pays about 30p a year towards the cost of the Royal Family. There are many other things/people (such a Members of Parliament and their expenses claims) that are more dubious expenses on the taxpayers.

Secondly, everyone is different in their relationships and needs. It is quite possible that Andrew and Sarah have a platonic relationship now. Whether they do or not, though, is their private business, and I for one don't feel I have to be a keeper of their morals.

Thirdly, it is well known that the Queen has left the running of the family to Philip. I believe that he vetoed Sarah living with Andrew in a naval married quarter when they were first married. (Why? Who knows - when Philip was first married to Pss Elizabeth she lived with him in ?Malta as a naval wife.) This left Sarah lonely and isolated for much of the time, with no 'support network' round here, which would have been available in a naval setting. She is not the first young wife to get bored and do silly things - but others are not in the unforgiving media spotlight.

Fourthly, Sarah has worked hard and paid off her debts. She is involved with a children's charity, and works for Weight Watchers in the US. Some people are sour about her - but I think she deserves the success she has, and also deserves to have Andrew still care about her. Although his daughters are 5th and 6th in succession to the throne, both he and, more importantly, the Queen, allow them a lot of time with Sarah, both in the UK and overseas.

 

[Skydragon]

Hm, where to start? Sarah living off the taxpayer when she stays with Andrew? To the best of my knowledge his house was bought as a wedding present by the Queen. So it is not being run by tax-payers money.

Prince Andrew is paid £249,000 each year from the civil list, and his travel bill is picked up by the taxpayer, via the palace. If anyone believes that Andrew is able to support his lifestyle, house, himself, his daughters and his ex wife on a naval officers pension or from his trust funds until the end of time, I'm afraid they are misinformed.

she deserves the success she has, and also deserves to have Andrew still care about her. Although his daughters are 5th and 6th in succession to the throne, both he and, more importantly, the Queen, allow them a lot of time with Sarah, both in the UK and overseas.

I don't think the Queen has ever had any say in whether or not he see's Sarah.

it is well known that the Queen has left the running of the family to Philip. I believe that he vetoed Sarah living with Andrew in a naval married quarter when they were first married. (Why? Who knows - when Philip was first married to Pss Elizabeth she lived with him in ?Malta as a naval wife.) This left Sarah lonely and isolated for much of the time, with no 'support network' round here, which would have been available in a naval setting. She is not the first young wife to get bored and do silly things

Where on earth is the evidence for any of this statement? What support network did you see Sarah joining, she was far too busy having fun to want to be involved in the naval officer wives coffee mornings.

 

[ysbel]

Prince Andrew is paid £249,000 each year from the civil list, and his travel bill is picked up by the taxpayer, via the palace.

Are you sure about that skydragon? I thought the Queen and Prince Charles are the only ones left on the civil list.

Doesn't the Queen pay Andrew's income the same way she pays for the income of the minor royals?