The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > British Royals > Current Events Archive

Join The Royal Forums Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #321  
Old 03-08-2011, 08:22 AM
Zonk's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere in, United States
Posts: 11,330
Didn't Oprah refer to Sarah as a morally bankrupt person not a corrupt person?

I realize that Sarah is not a perfect or popular person, but really the name calling has to stop. This is not directed to you Kathryn.

If we can't have a civil conversation about this issue without the name calling, then this thread will be closed.
__________________

__________________
.

  #322  
Old 03-08-2011, 09:21 AM
rominet09's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: LIEGE, Belgium
Posts: 3,364
I's her daughters I pity ! They must die of shame !
__________________

  #323  
Old 03-08-2011, 09:37 AM
NotAPretender's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: WPB FL/Muttontown NY, United States
Posts: 852
Quote:
Originally Posted by FergieFan View Post
It is quite horribly and grotesquely unfair that Sarah is being tarred, by association, with this man and his vile crimes. She has done NOTHING wrong, and should really not have created attention to this by apologising.
She knew nothing of what Epstein was up to (I don’t know if she’s even met him!), and it was her ex-husband who arranged this loan on her behalf. The media needs to stop these whispers and innuendos, and leave her alone!
By her own admission, she knew exactly where the money was coming from. And they aren't "whispers and innuendos"! This is out of Sarah's mouth!!!!!!!

"Nothing wrong?" you say? Even SARAH admitted that it was wrong! Good heavens, can you please read what she herself is spitting out? And she knew "nothing about what Epstein was up to?" He had already been convicted and served time for "what he was up to." Are you saying that Sarah is completely incapable of any higher brain function than respiration?

--------------------

What I find most illuminating about Sarah's statement is the number of times she used "I" in it - as well as her assertion that she and the other Yorks are standing together on it all. Once again, she shows how incredibly selfish and self-serving she is.

Not "my friend had taken a financial bath because I couldn't pay him, so to help him, this was arranged." No, it's "I wanted to get out of debt, because it's all about me always, me, me, me, me....I I I....."

And that last bit about she and Andrew and the girls (when do they get to be women, I ask you?) standing together on this? Pathetic attempt to keep Brand Fergie going by clinging to those last shreds of Royal.

The two York parents deserve each other in every respect, but neither deserves to be on the public teat. They can take the money that they got for Sunninghill and live off that for the rest of their days.

Perhaps Monaco would welcome them, the sunny place for shady people that it has become yet again.
__________________
"Me, your Highness? On the whole, I wish I'd stayed in Tunbridge Wells"
  #324  
Old 03-08-2011, 10:30 AM
georgiea's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: N/A, United States
Posts: 1,644
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotAPretender View Post
The two York parents deserve each other in every respect, but neither deserves to be on the public teat. They can take the money that they got for Sunninghill and live off that for the rest of their days.

Perhaps Monaco would welcome them, the sunny place for shady people that it has become yet again.
I agree with you statements NotAPretender. I have thought this since these last situations arose with the couple.

The only problem is the money from Sunninghill is probably spent. This couple think they are above their shady actions because who they are.

I just read that Prince Andrew's job is on firm ground with the British government.
__________________
Watch your actions, for they become your habits. Watch your habits because they become your character. Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.
  #325  
Old 03-08-2011, 11:48 AM
FergieFan's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 147
[QUOTE=NotAPretender;1213598]By her own admission, she knew exactly where the money was coming from. And they aren't "whispers and innuendos"! This is out of Sarah's mouth!!!!!!!

"Nothing wrong?" you say? Even SARAH admitted that it was wrong! Good heavens, can you please read what she herself is spitting out? And she knew "nothing about what Epstein was up to?" He had already been convicted and served time for "what he was up to." Are you saying that Sarah is completely incapable of any higher brain function than respiration?


Firstly, I wasn't aware that Epstein's conviction was as far back as 2008, so apologies there.
But I really don't think she knew too much about how her debts were being paid - only that Andrew had it in hand.
From the Telegraph:

"Referring to the settlement of her £5 million debts, which have now been cleared following individual arrangements with her creditors, the Duchess added: “The Duke sorted out my debts and he and his office have been more than marvellous.”
The comment was interpreted as confirmation that the Duke had arranged the payment with Epstein.
But a spokesman for the Duchess later issued a clarification, saying: “Jeffrey Epstein made a number of offers to the Duchess to help her over a nine-month period. Consequently, he took it upon himself to approach Johnny O’Sullivan directly, whom he knew and was aware of the unpaid debt by the Duchess.” "

There's no indication that Sarah herself knew who the money was coming from, only that it was arranged through Andrew or directly with Johnny O'Sullivan. We don't know for sure how much she knew about it at the time. I cannot believe that Sarah would have anything but contempt for those who abuse children. This clearly was a mistake, and she's doing all she can to rectify the situation. But with the horrendous financial situation she was in at the time, she perhaps didn't ask enough questions of the provenance of the money.
__________________
"There is no triumph without struggle, no wisdom without misjudgement, no character without getting knocked down and picking yourself up again".
- Sarah, Duchess of York
from Finding Sarah: A Duchess' Journey to Find Herself (2011: Simon & Schuster, New York)
http://duchessdiscoveries.com
  #326  
Old 03-08-2011, 12:04 PM
NotAPretender's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: WPB FL/Muttontown NY, United States
Posts: 852
Quote:
Originally Posted by FergieFan View Post
"Referring to the settlement of her £5 million debts, which have now been cleared following individual arrangements with her creditors, the Duchess added: “The Duke sorted out my debts and he and his office have been more than marvellous.”
The comment was interpreted as confirmation that the Duke had arranged the payment with Epstein.
But a spokesman for the Duchess later issued a clarification, saying: “Jeffrey Epstein made a number of offers to the Duchess to help her over a nine-month period. Consequently, he took it upon himself to approach Johnny O’Sullivan directly, whom he knew and was aware of the unpaid debt by the Duchess.” "

There's no indication that Sarah herself knew who the money was coming from, only that it was arranged through Andrew or directly with Johnny O'Sullivan. We don't know for sure how much she knew about it at the time. I cannot believe that Sarah would have anything but contempt for those who abuse children. This clearly was a mistake, and she's doing all she can to rectify the situation. But with the horrendous financial situation she was in at the time, she perhaps didn't ask enough questions of the provenance of the money.
FergieFan, I bolded what you yourself quoted from the newspaper, then bolded the contradition in your response. Epstein approached the Duchess - by the admission of the Duchess' representative - this is not "innuendo and whispers." So Sarah knew full well where the money was coming from, and the bolded statement in your response does not reflect that reality.

I realize that you think Sarah is wonderful, but can you please take a look at what was written and what you wrote?

Sarah only cared about herself and her own debt. Only. Not about O'Sullivan as a person, but that his unpaid debt was holding up her debt settlement. The girls that Epstein abused were the same ages as her own daughters....but she didn't care. She only cared about her own pocketbook.

I can still look back at the pictures of their wedding and remember how it all seemed like a great, rolicking-good match. Well, maybe it was and is, but in ways that I could not have imagined at that time.
__________________
"Me, your Highness? On the whole, I wish I'd stayed in Tunbridge Wells"
  #327  
Old 03-08-2011, 02:52 PM
Russophile's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Portland, United States
Posts: 4,071
Seems to me Sarah didn't care where the money came from as long as her debts were paid. And since she kept herself in the dark as to the shady character who fronted the money she can claim ignorance.
__________________
"Not MGM, not the press, not anyone can tell me what to do."--Ava Gardner
  #328  
Old 03-08-2011, 04:02 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: alpine village, Germany
Posts: 1,868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
Didn't Oprah refer to Sarah as a morally bankrupt person not a corrupt person?

I realize that Sarah is not a perfect or popular person, but really the name calling has to stop. This is not directed to you Kathryn.

If we can't have a civil conversation about this issue without the name calling, then this thread will be closed.
I'm sorry, Zonk, you're right, I should have checked the quote before I used it. And when I think about it I don't think Sarah is really corrupt but has a blind spot when it comes to the connection of money, influence, rank and the whole game of giving and taking.

I have no doubt that she is really shocked now to realise what her carelessness has brought over Andrew who, in my opinion, just wanted to bail her out and to have the whole stories about her going to a stop before he has to decide between her and his family.
  #329  
Old 03-08-2011, 06:14 PM
Roslyn's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tintenbar, Australia
Posts: 3,937
I'm sensing a witch hunt mentality about Sarah again, and that always makes me feel uneasy.

I think her biggest mistake was making any sort of apology and saying she would give the money back. Did the money Epstein provided come from the proceeds of child prostitution or some similar activity? Unless it did, I see no reason why she should. The deal was brokered by Andrew, yet he is going to come through this OK. He is just as responsible for this, if not more so because he is the Queen's son, and he owes his daughters' welfare the same consideration as their mother, yet it is Sarah, once again, who is getting most of the criticism.

Epstein's been convicted of the crime and paid the penalty, as I understand it. The mere fact he has a hankering for underage teenagers, and acted on that hankering, does not, in my opinion, mean that Sarah should not have accepted the money. The two issues are completely separate, IMO.
__________________
"That's it then. Cancel the kitchen scraps for lepers and orphans, no more merciful beheadings, -- and call off Christmas!!!"
  #330  
Old 03-08-2011, 06:27 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Galway, Ireland
Posts: 342
[QUOTE=Kataryn;1213802]

I have no doubt that she is really shocked now to realise what her carelessness has brought over Andrew who, in my opinion, just wanted to bail her out and to have the whole stories about her going to a stop before he has to decide between her and his family.[/QUOTE]

Kataryn, I sincerely hope it doesn't come to that. He is between a rock and a hard place. He is fully committed to HM and his royal heritege, but has love and in his own way is equally committed to Sarah and their family. I hope no ones forces him to choose because he would be the real loser IMO.
  #331  
Old 03-08-2011, 07:05 PM
Mermaid1962's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: NearTheCoast, Canada
Posts: 6,004
He didn't think about HM and his family's reputation when he got involved with Epstein and went to the house in Florida that had the evidence of an unhealthy interest in young girls hanging on the walls. No, I don't think that HRH The Duke of York thinks about the consequences of his actions and how they affect the rest of his family, either his parents or his daughters.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Eyes View Post
He is fully committed to HM and his royal heritege, but has love and in his own way is equally committed to Sarah and their family.
  #332  
Old 03-08-2011, 07:34 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Galway, Ireland
Posts: 342
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
He didn't think about HM and his family's reputation when he got involved with Epstein and went to the house in Florida that had the evidence of an unhealthy interest in young girls hanging on the walls. No, I don't think that HRH The Duke of York thinks about the consequences of his actions and how they affect the rest of his family, either his parents or his daughters.
I accept what your saying Mermaid1962.
I suppose what I was trying to say was that he will never give up his royal title and right to the thrown for Sarah, but equally he is not giving up on their family unit. After all these years he was still prepared to go to great lengths to help her rather than cut all ties. I just hope in the future he's not caught in the middle so much, and that the road isn't as rocky.
  #333  
Old 03-08-2011, 08:10 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bronx, United States
Posts: 427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
I'm sensing a witch hunt mentality about Sarah again, and that always makes me feel uneasy.

I think her biggest mistake was making any sort of apology and saying she would give the money back. Did the money Epstein provided come from the proceeds of child prostitution or some similar activity? Unless it did, I see no reason why she should. The deal was brokered by Andrew, yet he is going to come through this OK. He is just as responsible for this, if not more so because he is the Queen's son, and he owes his daughters' welfare the same consideration as their mother, yet it is Sarah, once again, who is getting most of the criticism.

Epstein's been convicted of the crime and paid the penalty, as I understand it. The mere fact he has a hankering for underage teenagers, and acted on that hankering, does not, in my opinion, mean that Sarah should not have accepted the money. The two issues are completely separate, IMO.
It's call getting tarred with the same brush. It happens in all walks of life, you're taught to not hang out with certain kids cause of the mistakes of one member, someone is forced to resign a position because of a mistake unrelated to their work.

The fact that he was convicted of that kind of crime is why her taking the money is seen so badly. Drunk driving, perjury. even some violent crimes can be excused but crimes against minors, (teenagers not children but still easily influenced), especially a man being convicted of such crimes, is poisonous. It takes quite a long time to wash the smell off from that one. And with fresh allegations, the stench is worse than ever.

Once again, Sarah doesn't think, she simply saw her debts being erased for her and ran with it. A lot of people would've done it, granted but when you're that disliked, why are you being that stupid?
  #334  
Old 03-08-2011, 08:11 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 6,643
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
Epstein's been convicted of the crime and paid the penalty, as I understand it. The mere fact he has a hankering for underage teenagers, and acted on that hankering, does not, in my opinion, mean that Sarah should not have accepted the money. The two issues are completely separate, IMO.
Perhaps Mr. Epstein has been convicted of a crime and has certain "leanings" in his personal life but we have to realize too that his profession is basically in financial matters I believe. Hedge funds and such? Sarah and Andrew both having anything to do with this man could solely be for professional reasons only. I'm sure that there were a lot of financial dealings going on with Michael Jackson and his music profession that had nothing whatsoever to do with any "alleged" crimes he was taken to court for too.

I have seen no allegations whatsoever that Andrew has been involved with anything other than business dealings with Mr. Epstein whether its been for the UKTI or personal. Sarah trusts Andrew completely and I don't believe she's done any wrong either in this matter.
  #335  
Old 03-08-2011, 08:21 PM
MRSJ's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: ******, United States
Posts: 1,863
In my opinion it's a question for each persons moral character. I for one would never take $ from someone convicted of a crime against a child, it would feel wrong to me... Maybe Sarah didn't know before (to give her benefit of doubt) and if she offered to return it (did she?) maybe that's because she felt bad (or because she got caught?) but my opinion is she just wanted debt paid and didn't bother to care where payment came from

Ps... When child molestation allegations first came out against Jackson he lost a lot of business contacts, and fans and was never as popular again, in fact he became a national joke and ot wasn't till he died that he was reinstated to icon status - and he was never found guilty of the charges....
  #336  
Old 03-08-2011, 09:30 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: indianapolis, United States
Posts: 218
this man did his time. there are plenty of people that do change and go on the straight and narrow. it is only money. i dont have a problem with him wanting to help sarah out. the only problem i would have is if he had her leave her underage daughters at his house while he bought her a month long vacation. that didnt happen.

Oral Roberts needed so much money or god would take his life, remember? he took 'blood money' that was obtained from gambling, therefore god saved his life because he got the money. my point being. green is green regardless of what field it comes from.

sarah needs to be given a break.
  #337  
Old 03-09-2011, 02:13 AM
RubyPrincess168's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Sun Prairie, United States
Posts: 1,655
3.8.11: After the heavy rains | New York Social Diary
The question unanswered in this mindless scandal is: what does Epstein’s pedophilia charges have to do with giving money to a friend, even if the friend is the Duke of York or the Duchess of York. If he weren’t an accused pedophile, would we care if it appeared that he was “buying” rich powerful friends? Probably not.

The British royals, especially the Queen’s immediate family, are in many ways isolated from the rest of us with all those rules that precede them; the bowing and curtsying, the ma’am-ing and sir-ing, laying out a field of pretense of regal superiority. But as it is with money, once the pretension becomes part of the lifestyle, it’s hard to shake, and no one really asks for justification. Instead it’s called tradition.

It’s not their fault. They don’t know any better. If Andrew’s mother weren’t the Queen Elizabeth II, if he were only an ordinary duke instead of a royal duke, he never would have had this trouble in the first place. He might have had a wife who always needed to be bailed out. And he might have more than a few friends that wanted to wine and dine and yacht and fly him. But he’d probably be regarded by many of his social peers and sycophants as a smart guy, forging relationships with financial hotshots like Jeffrey Epstein and political dictators’ sons – like Sakher El Materi, the son-in-law of deposed Tunisian dictator Zine El Abidine Ben Ali. Until, of course, the Great Fall.


  #338  
Old 03-09-2011, 11:57 AM
FergieFan's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 147
I guess the truth is that we don’t know for sure how involved Sarah herself was with giving the green light to Epstein’s offer to her to help her out, or if it was mainly or entirely dealt with by her people or Andrew’s people. We can’t expect her to have a detailed mental picture of every single financial measure that was arranged on her behalf to pay off her debts (especially as $25,000 amounts to a relatively small percentage of the overall debt).

So let’s lay this issue aside, and assume for the sake of argument the worst interpretation – that she knew the money came from him and gave it the green light. How do we then regard her decision?

For me, we need to take a sympathetic view of the situation in which Sarah found herself at that time. She was desperate. Her business interests in the US, which had been very successful for her in the past, had been wiped out due to the global financial crisis. Like so many people throughout the world, she was facing financial meltdown – the horror of ever-expanding debt and ever-decreasing income. As we know from her Oprah interview, she was in a “bad place”, in the “gutter”, drinking heavily and scared of the future. Then came the cash-for-access story. A result of her desperation – when people are under huge pressure, they often act wrongly and irrationally. And then a vicious witch hunt by the world’s media. Pressure mounts, unhappiness grows. And then Andrew, whom she still cares for so much (and he for her), offers her an escape – a chance to be debt-free, to put her misery behind her and look to the future...

This is the background and the context in which she (directly or indirectly) accepted Epstein’s money to help pay her debts. Put yourself in her shoes and feel some empathy. I can’t say I’d have necessarily turned it down – not under those circumstances.
__________________
"There is no triumph without struggle, no wisdom without misjudgement, no character without getting knocked down and picking yourself up again".
- Sarah, Duchess of York
from Finding Sarah: A Duchess' Journey to Find Herself (2011: Simon & Schuster, New York)
http://duchessdiscoveries.com
  #339  
Old 03-09-2011, 01:42 PM
Jacknch's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Suffolk/Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 4,931
This latest affair has been quite distasteful. I am sure there was once a time when people coming into close contact with the royal family were checked out beforehand to avoid awkward associations. I just hope that both Andrew and Sarah will consider more carefully who they choose as trade/business associates. The world of business can sometimes be abit "if you do something for me, I'll do something for you" and unless you work to a strict ethic code, you leave yourself open to scandel and alls orts of things.
I do hope things settle down for Sarah and after this situation, I really do not expect it to happen again. As I said before, Sarah needs to concentrate on a simpler life with limited business interests (like sticking just to story writing). As for Andrew, I do hope that he concentrates on using his ambassadorial skills in countries that are actually likely to benefit British trade. To me, that means avoiding potentially corrupt and dictatorial countries whose leaders care more about prestige than the good of their countries (sorry if that's abit political!).
__________________
JACK
  #340  
Old 03-09-2011, 02:04 PM
Russophile's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Portland, United States
Posts: 4,071
Quote:
Originally Posted by bethaliz6894 View Post
this man did his time. there are plenty of people that do change and go on the straight and narrow. it is only money. i dont have a problem with him wanting to help sarah out. the only problem i would have is if he had her leave her underage daughters at his house while he bought her a month long vacation. that didnt happen.
Give it time. It will happen. These type of people don't change--sad to say. I know this for a fact.
__________________

__________________
"Not MGM, not the press, not anyone can tell me what to do."--Ava Gardner
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sarah, Duchess of York Current Events 18: January 2014 Zonk The Duke of York, Sarah Duchess of York, and Family 864 12-04-2016 04:35 AM
Sarah, Duchess of York Current Events 1: January 2003-September 2004 Jacqueline Current Events Archive 170 09-23-2004 04:30 PM




Popular Tags
ascot 2016 belgian state visit to japan best gown best gown september 2016 best hat best outfit catherine middleton style christening of prince alexander coup d'etat crown prince haakon crown princess mary crown princess mary fashion crown princess mette-marit current events duchess of cambridge e-mail fashion poll fashion suggestions gothia cup grand duke jean greece hereditary grand duchess stéphanie's fashion & style kate middleton king abdullah ii king felipe king felipe vi king willem-alexander member introduction monarchy new zealand nobel gala norway november 2016 october 2016 opening of parliament picture of the week prince bernhard prince charles princess madeleine princess marie princess mary princess mary daytime fashion princess mary fashion princess mary hats queen letizia queen letizia casual outfits queen letizia daytime fashion queen letizia fashion queen letizia style queen mathilde queen mathildes outfits queen maxima queen maxima casual wear queen maxima daytime fashion queen maxima fashion queen maxima hats queen maxima style queen rania royal fashion september 2016 sheikha moza state visit state visit to denmark succession sweden the duchess of cambridge the duchess of cambridge casual wear the duchess of cambridge daytime fashion the duchess of cambridge fashion the duchess of cambridge hats


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:30 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2016
Jelsoft Enterprises