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  #121  
Old 10-11-2005, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Marmalade
Ahhh...thank you both BeatrixFan and ysbel. :)

Seems complex in some respects.

I have read that Charles turns quite a yearly profit on his returns from the Duchy's income, more than enough to support the Duchess and his two sons.

But the refurbishment of Clarence House was paid for primarily from the taxpayer, is that correct?
Ah, Lady Marmalade, you're getting into territory I'm unfamiliar with. I think if Clarence House belongs to the government, I imagine the government would pay for its upkeep but if its privately owned then the royal family would. I'm not 100% sure of this. Windsor Castle was owned by the government but the government refused to pay for its reconstruction after the fire, so the Queen put up the money.

As far as covering the normal living expenses for the Prince of Wales, the Duchess of Cornwall and the two princes, the Duchy income is meant for that type of expense and I imagine that's how its being used. I don't know for sure though.

But chartering a plane for an official trip goes far beyond the realm of a private living expense. Its rather like expecting a private businessman to pay for his own flight and hotel room on a business trip. I mean, yes, they can afford it, but if they're on official business should they?

Again I am amazed that only Charles and Andrew get criticized for this type of thing.
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  #122  
Old 10-11-2005, 01:59 PM
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Re:

All the major Royal Residences belong to the Queen. Tax-Payers Money is used to keep them running, but as far as I know, the Government have never owned the Royal Residences.

Windsor Castle became an issue for the Government after the fire. John Major said that the Government would fund the repairs (but in actual fact, that would be tax-payers money) and there was media outcry. The basic opinion was ' Its her home, she should pay'. In the end, the Queen payed the bill for the repairs and this has made the Royal Family a bit more careful about fire prevention etc.

The big-wigs in finance break down every aspect of Royal Life to decide who should get what. For example;

Princess Alexandra - Widow - Coppins and Thatched House Lodge, Apartment in St James's Palace

The houses are not rented of course. They will probably be owned, either by the Princess herself or by the Queen (Thatched House Lodge and her apartment in the Palace are definately Crown Property). So, the only tab is the upkeep of the properties - gardeners and groundsmen, game-keepers etc. Then you have the 3 footman that are assigned to the Princess. 30,000 a year. (Each one earns about 10,000 a year). Then you have the security which I believe is 4 police men assigned to the Princess. I'm not sure of Police Salary but that could equal 50,000 easily. Then you have everyday bills - water, electricity etc. Her Ladies and Waiting (4 of them) don't get paid. Her Staff and Property would be considered as Business I imagine because she has to have somewhere to live and staff to help her.
She has an office and an apartment in Buckingham Palace complete with a Lady in Waiting, a Press Secretary and a Private Secretary. All have salaries to be paid, as well as office costs for stationary, mailing costs etc etc
Food etc would also be classed as living costs so that comes in to the bill too. Then you have travel. The police escort, the bentley, the footman in the front and the Chauffeur. Again, adds to the Bill.

All this would be paid for by the Civil List - but say the Princess fancies a trip to Biarritz, then she pays for that out of her personal purse. That is a private matter and she wouldn't be expected to give a breakdown of costs (although I imagine it would be made avaliable).

When you add all of this up, you get a pretty high total. She is considered the lower end of the Royal Scale and so for Prince Charles - the costs would be 4 times as much - he has to support Prince William and Prince Harry. As a member of the Royal Family, I think that the Duchess of Cornwall would get a set amount from the Civil List that was set aside from her husband. In the past, Prince Charles took from his alloted fund to support Camilla, but now, she will recieve it personally, the amount given to Prince Charles will account for her or there'll be no extra.

St James's Palace, Kensington Palace etc etc are all owned by the Queen and over the years, they'll have become the property of the Sovereign to do as she likes with within reason. She won't charge rent for her family living there, but they'll have to pay taxes and land costs etc. So, when there was that hoo-hah about Prince and Princess Michael living on a small rent, they probably were only paying the bills we all have to pay and not a rent for the apartment. Their home in Gloucestershire that they are trying to sell (Nether Lypiatt) will be their private home and so the Queen won't own it or have anything to do with it's selling or the new house that they buy.

To sum up my huge waffle, it's a private and public pay-check. Their private finances are exactly that and they can do as they wish, but their public one is dealt with by the tax-payer but that doesn't mean that everything they do with the money can be criticised. The public pay-check is there to ensure that they can carry out official duties and that they can be Royals.

As Ysbel, Prince Charles's expenses to the USA will be picked up by the tax-payer because thats what their pay-check does. If he wants to buy a baseball cap for Camilla, that will come from his private pay-check.
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  #123  
Old 10-11-2005, 02:03 PM
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I thought Prince Charles paid for most of the refurbishment of Clarence House himself.
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  #124  
Old 10-11-2005, 02:05 PM
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I think he paid for the refurbishment of the private apartments, whereas the rooms to be opened to the public and the general structural upgrading were covered by the Crown Estates.
  #125  
Old 10-11-2005, 02:21 PM
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Thanks BeatrixFan and Elspeth. See, Lady Marmalade, I told you I was getting out of my depth here.

The knowledge in these forums never ceases to amaze me.
  #126  
Old 10-11-2005, 02:49 PM
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WOW!! :)

Thank you for the breakdown.

I know he pays income tax as well, and has done so for many, many years and decided to do this on his own accord without anyone pressuring him.
  #127  
Old 10-11-2005, 02:52 PM
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Thank you Elspeth and BeatrixFan for your helpful clarifications. :)

And just to clarify, the only two residences owned outright by the Sovereign as her personal property are Balmoral and Sandringham.

Charles owns Highgrove outright as well.

If I am incorrect, please let me know.
  #128  
Old 10-11-2005, 03:02 PM
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I think you're correct, with the minor nitpick that I think Highgrove is owned by the Duchy of Cornwall rather than by Charles outright.
  #129  
Old 10-11-2005, 03:10 PM
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ahhh....thank you! :)

See..there can be so many interesting points on this to learn about.
  #130  
Old 10-11-2005, 03:14 PM
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Re:

I thought the Queen owned Windsor? I don't think she did until 1992, but after paying for the entire repairs herself, I believe they came to a decision that it would become the Queen's property, much like Balmoral and Sandringham. I may be wrong.

Clarence House. I think that Prince Charles offered to pay for it but in actual fact, the Government paid because it was deemed a working residence.

The problem with the whole money thing is that we rarely get a financial report on each item and why the hell should we?
  #131  
Old 10-11-2005, 03:44 PM
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As far as I understand it, the repairs of Windsor were financed by the money obtained from opening Buckingham Palace to the public and by using money already set aside for repairs of royal residences. No extra money came directly from taxpayers via a request for funds in Parliament. The Queen didn't pay for the money out of her private funds, and Windsor hasn't changed ownership.

The negative response by the public was to a suggestion from a minister that the money to repair Windsor should be made available from the Treasury over and above anything already set aside for upkeep of royal buildings, so this wasn't done. Instead they opened Buckingham Palace to the public (not before time, IMO) and got most of the money that way.
  #132  
Old 10-11-2005, 03:54 PM
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RE: ownership of Windsor Castle. Some links and information from the royal website.
http://www.royalinsight.gov.uk/output/page3108.asp

The residences associated with today's Royal Family are divided into the Occupied Royal Residences, which are owned by The Queen as Sovereign (i.e. not as a private individual) and the Private Estates which have been inherited by The Queen from her father. The Occupied Royal Residences are Buckingham Palace, Windsor Castle, St James's Palace and the Palace of Holyroodhouse.

The private estates are Sandringham House and Balmoral Castle, which are commercial estates managed privately on The Queen's behalf.

http://www.royalinsight.gov.uk/output/page396.asp

The Queen owns Balmoral and Sandringham, both inherited from her father. She also owns the stud at Sandringham (with a small amount of land in Hampshire). Her Majesty owns no property outside the United Kingdom.

Estimates of The Queen's wealth have often been greatly exaggerated, as they mistakenly include items which are held by The Queen as Sovereign on behalf of the nation and are not her private property.

These include Royal Palaces, most of the art treasures from the Royal Collection, heirlooms in The Queen's jewellery collection and the Crown Jewels.

The 'inalienable' items held by Her Majesty as Sovereign, rather than as an individual, cannot be disposed of by The Queen and must pass to her successor as Sovereign.



  #133  
Old 10-11-2005, 03:57 PM
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The Queen does not directly own any private property except for Balmoral and Sandringham House. All of the other palaces and home mentioned belong to the Crown Estate, which is the property of the Exchequer, or the Royal Trust, held in perpetuity by the Crown for each Sovereign. The Royal Trust properties (like Clarence House) cannot be sold, but their use is governed by the wishes of the Sovereign.

Renovations of Crown Estate and Royal Trust properties are usually paid by the Government out of Crown Estate monies, with some contribution by the individual (or the Queen) when appropriate.

Since most of the Queen's cousins have little money of their own or small fortunes, she pays a lot of their expenses out of her private purse.
  #134  
Old 10-11-2005, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
When you add all of this up, you get a pretty high total. She is considered the lower end of the Royal Scale and so for Prince Charles - the costs would be 4 times as much - he has to support Prince William and Prince Harry. As a member of the Royal Family, I think that the Duchess of Cornwall would get a set amount from the Civil List that was set aside from her husband. In the past, Prince Charles took from his alloted fund to support Camilla, but now, she will recieve it personally, the amount given to Prince Charles will account for her or there'll be no extra.
Please note that Charles receives nothing from the Civil List. His income, on which he supports himself, his sons and his wife, comes from the Duchy of Cornwall estate only.

Only the Queen and Prince Philip actually receive payments from the Civil List. The others, except for the Duke of Cornwall and family, who are listed have their income repaid by the Queen. This was agreed to as part of the scaling back of the cost of the Royal Family in the early 90s.

Charles started voluntarily paying taxes in the 1970s or even 1969 when he gained control of the Duchy estates on turning 21. He was paying 50% at that time but scaled it back to 25% after marrying Diana to pay for the cost of having a wife. I don't know if he has ever increased it but as he has had to pay for his sons since then and has now acquired a new wife he probably hasn't done so.
  #135  
Old 10-11-2005, 07:27 PM
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Re:

Please note that Charles receives nothing from the Civil List. His income, on which he supports himself, his sons and his wife, comes from the Duchy of Cornwall estate only.

I meant that he recieves money from the Queen from the money she recieves from the Civil List. My error! :)
  #136  
Old 10-11-2005, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Please note that Charles receives nothing from the Civil List. His income, on which he supports himself, his sons and his wife, comes from the Duchy of Cornwall estate only.

I meant that he recieves money from the Queen from the money she recieves from the Civil List. My error! :)
Prince Charles does not receive a penny from the Queen, whether from her private purse or through her Civil List monies. As Duke of Cornwall, he receives the duchy's profits, which is designated to provide an income to the heir to the throne and his family. He also pays taxes on this income.

Also, Princes William and Harry have plenty of their own money, both from Diana's estate, the Queen Mother's trust and the money left to Harry in trust by the Earl Spencer before he died. So, we don't have to worry about them sucking up taxpayers' dollars!
  #137  
Old 10-11-2005, 10:14 PM
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To remark on an earlier post someone made...even though I know it is admanently denied, I would not be surprised if the Royal Family did in fact own property in the U.S. privately.
  #138  
Old 10-12-2005, 11:17 AM
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They probably do own land outside the UK but it is probably under an alias. I know Princess Margaret owned land in the Carabean.
  #139  
Old 10-12-2005, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
I think he paid for the refurbishment of the private apartments, whereas the rooms to be opened to the public and the general structural upgrading were covered by the Crown Estates.
well, that isn't bad...acceptable if you ask me.

Then why are so many complaining about the royal family's wasting tax payers money?
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  #140  
Old 10-12-2005, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Harry's polo shirt
well, that isn't bad...acceptable if you ask me.

Then why are so many complaining about the royal family's wasting tax payers money?
Beats me! I'd rather talk about Camilla leading Ozzy around a high British tea party telling jokes!

BTW, Warren, did they catch any jokes Her Royal Highness told the Oz-ster?
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