Prince of Wales and Duchess of Cornwall Current Events 14: April 2006-June 2006

[naida]

The marriage of Charles and Camilla is unlikely to produce any offspring, but should the princes William or Harry need to remarry; the legal botch could put the legitimacy of an heir to the throne in jeopardy.


“Above all things our royalty is to be reverenced and if you begin to poke about it you cannot reverence it,” as Bagehot so perceptively noted.


The royal wedding may have passed off safely in so far as it was a private contract between two individuals, but as an act of state, the whole event is indicative of a deep malaise within the British parliamentary system and points to the existing form of rule decaying.

 

[bbb]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2217999,00.html
another link to this story
its a shame this is all coming out, they seem so happy with each other. its as if Charles is a new man Camilla makes him so happy. i hope this is just another attempt to stir things up and it'll fade away.
what do the people on the street in England think, are they talking about it or just ignoring it?
i must say as a huge Diana fan it took me awhile to warm to Camilla but after all this time and the princes affection for her, her openness and ready for anything appearences she's won me over. i wish they could just be happy and left alone.

 

[Skydragon]

what do the people on the street in England think, are they talking about it or just ignoring it?
i must say as a huge Diana fan it took me awhile to warm to Camilla but after all this time and the princes affection for her, her openness and ready for anything appearences she's won me over. i wish they could just be happy and left alone.

I can't speak for everyone but, IMO, most people in the UK are happy for them. Despite all the tabloid headlines at the time of the wedding, a lot of ordinary people had no problem with them getting married. people have realised that she is the perfect wife for Charles and she has been winning people over, as you say, with her open and friendly character and a charm that has nothing to do with being 'dressed up'.

Are they all talking about this article in The Times, not really, apart from saying 'for goodness sake, leave them alone'.

 

[Skydragon]

Presicely!
All this talks emerged again from the lack of news, imo. They can't do anything, can they? Prince Charles and Camilla have already married and nothing they do or say will change that.

As you say Avalon, a slow news week.

 

[Skydragon]

The marriage of Charles and Camilla is unlikely to produce any offspring, but should the princes William or Harry need to remarry; the legal botch could put the legitimacy of an heir to the throne in jeopardy.

Why Their fathers marriage has no effect on their parentage. If William or Harry marry, divorce and remarry, Williams 1st born male child will be the heir, unless he only has girls.

 

[bbb]

God bless the brits, glad to hear it! thanks for the info skydragon

 

[Maxie]

As you say Avalon, a slow news week.

A very slow news week, as it seems...

 

[love_cc]

The behaviour of allowing Prince Charles to marry a divoursee will be regarded as a step of modernise the monarchy which is very important. The monarchy should be modernised or catch up the social changes. For me, all tragedies such as the 1936 crisis, Princess Margarete's marriage, Anne's first marriage, Charles's first marriage are all related with the restrictions of royals marrying their loved ones. Even they are royals, I respect their basic human rights such as marriage freedom. The document was presented about 10 years ago and time to make a new decision. I support the government's decision.

 

[wymanda]

Basically I think it comes down to the fact that John Major was a staunch supporter of Diana and any advice his government provided was going to be slanted so that it appeased the Di-hards and made it seem impossible for Charles to marry Camilla.
As far as legislation is concerned, virtually every civilised country has implemented Human Rights or Equal Opportunity legislation which makes it illegal to discriminate against a person because of Age, Sex, Religion, Marital Status, Sexual Preference, Occupation, etc. In the case of the Marriages Act and other legislation Charles could justifiably claim that he was being discriminated against because of his birthright. IMO this is illegal.

 

[Heidi P.]

love_cc,
Exactly my thoughts about the modernization of the monarchy.

 

[ysbel]

The monarchy stopped being a focus for reverence when Rupert Murdoch came to England and decided to attack the British class system by attacking the monarchy - it happened before Prince Charles and it happened before Murdoch became the owner of the Times which printed this latest article of 'concern for legality of the Prince of Wales' marriage

Bollocks! Murdoch would like nothing better than to destroy the monarchy and he said as much in a 1989 interview.

Here's an excerpt from the transcript of the PBS Frontline program:

RUPERT MURDOCH, Newspaper Owner: [1989 interview] I used to feel that this was a society that was held down by a very stratified class system and that the royal family was the pinnacle of that and that you would never really open up this society to opportunity for everybody until you tackled this class system and it was very hard to see how you could tackle it with the royal family there.

I take Murdoch's concern for the legality of the marriage with quite a hefty grain (if not several buckets) of salt.

 

[Skydragon]

I take Murdoch's concern for the legality of the marriage with quite a hefty grain (if not several buckets) of salt.

They say salt is not good for you but, Murdoch is certainly worse. Why is it that those who can't get in, set out to destroy the very thing they long to be part of?

 

[julial]

They say salt is not good for you but, Murdoch is certainly worse. Why is it that those who can't get in, set out to destroy the very thing they long to be part of?

But I thought that M was also from aristocratic background... his father was a knight and he was sent to study in Oxbridge, no? In his own way, his family was the creme de creme of the Australian society...??? I guess he had too much of the strong personality which lebelled against his own class-because he felt that he could not fit in with his fellow classmates...any thought on this? His is very competence oriented-that was part of the reason why he wanted to marry the young Chinese girl and left his Australian wife who was more of a housewife and a part-time writer. His new wife is very much business oriented and very energetic-(not only being young)

The man is very much of paradox. I think he just wants to be the king himself!

 

[Warren]

But I thought that M was also from aristocratic background... his father was a knight

Being awarded a knighthood for services to publishing does not make one an aristocrat. The Murdoch empire commenced with a small-town Adelaide newspaper. He had to break in to the 'social circles' of the big cities of Sydney and Melbourne; his nickname was "The Dirty Digger." Maybe he still harbours that old resentment of being an outsider. Just as Mohammad Al Fayed still harbours resentments at his lack of acceptance into British 'society'. Money can't buy class.

 

[Skydragon]

Britain is still very class orientated and as Warren has said, just because you are awarded a knighthood, does not mean you become a British aristocrat. He will, like al Fayed, always be seen as a wannabe, never quite belonging.

 

[ysbel]

The man is very much of paradox. I think he just wants to be the king himself!

I think you got that right!

His biggest paradox is ranting against an inheritance-based system while setting up his son as editor of some of his newspapers.

Doesn't he realize that's how the monarchy started? Originally kings got a certain amount of power and they groomed a son to succeed them. Looking out for your own family is one of the most primary human instincts.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I think you got that right!

His biggest paradox is ranting against an inheritance-based system while setting up his son as editor of some of his newspapers.

Doesn't he realize that's how the monarchy started? Originally kings got a certain amount of power and they groomed a son to succeed them. Looking out for your own family is one of the most primary human instincts.

He also inherited the business from his father who inherited it from his father - seems a bit hypocritical to me!!

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Britain is still very class orientated and as Warren has said, just because you are awarded a knighthood, does not mean you become a British aristocrat. He will, like al Fayed, always be seen as a wannabe, never quite belonging.

Do you think Charles would never have been interested in Camilla if she hasn't been from an aristocratic or gentry background? What about Sarah Ferguson? Sie descends from landed gentry but doesn't behave accordingly. At least in my opinion.

Another view on the British class system: I found it very interesting when I lived for some time in Belsize Village, London that while the British seemed to be very class-conscious they didn't take this attitude on viewing foreigners. At least I never had the feeling that someone did. And due to my profession (I'm a wine and spirits expert) then I had a lot of contacts to people of the upper class as well - both in London and Scotland. Okay, I knew I was judged for who I was - but nobody ever asked about my family background, the way I spoke English and the knowledge in my topic seemed to be enough.
Which I consider a very pleasant way to behave as here in Germany it's mostly money that counts today.

 

[Skydragon]

Do you think Charles would never have been interested in Camilla if she hasn't been from an aristocratic or gentry background? What about Sarah Ferguson? Sie descends from landed gentry but doesn't behave accordingly. At least in my opinion.

... And due to my profession (I'm a wine and spirits expert) then I had a lot of contacts to people of the upper class as well - both in London and Scotland. Okay, I knew I was judged for who I was - but nobody ever asked about my family background, the way I spoke English and the knowledge in my topic seemed to be enough.

You can marry into the aristocracy and after a while be partially accepted, your children will be of course. The aristocratic line is what is important. Landed gentry are not aristocrats, so Sarah is basically a rich farmers daughter who married well and as you say acts accordingly.

You would have been judged on what you did, it is unlikely you would have been invited to mix with these people in an informal way. One person you never upset is your wine merchant!

 

[Jo of Palatine]

It's a bit off-topic but I'd love to learn more about the workings of the British upper class, so maybe the moderators will allow this post to be answered? Thank you very much in advance.

You would have been judged on what you did, it is unlikely you would have been invited to mix with these people in an informal way. One person you never upset is your wine merchant!

Does I understand you right and you mean that people like wine merchants don't get invitations to mix with the upper class in Britain? Are they still expected to use the backdoor?

Then obviously the people who invited me to visit were not considering me to be of the same class as their wine merchant. Come to think of it, I never invited a wine merchant either.

But somehow it is degrading to think that my hosts just thought I was good enough to amuse their other guests with my knowledge when they invited me - should I have sent them a bill afterwards, I wonder? For "performing" at their parties? Or is it enough to still be on their list when it comes to sending christmas cards?

 

[Skydragon]

Do I understand you right and you mean that people like wine merchants don't get invitations to mix with the upper class in Britain? Are they still expected to use the backdoor?
But somehow it is degrading to think that my hosts just thought I was good enough to amuse their other guests with my knowledge when they invited me - should I have sent them a bill afterwards, I wonder? For "performing" at their parties? Or is it enough to still be on their list when it comes to sending christmas cards?

You are confusing upper class with aristocracy, however many 'upper class' people do expect tradesmen to use the back door, although a rich wine merchant is normally considered to be in the upper classes anyway.

Professors and 'experts' are guests and are therefore allowed to use the front. I should also say it depends on your host, the nouveau riche tend to 'use' people to help their social standing more than aristocrats, who feel they have nothing to prove.

Again if you struck up a friendship with your hosts, of course they will send you a christmas card but, does it have a personal note in it? Like many people, we send out a variety of cards ie. family, close friends, distant friends, acquaintances, businesses and people who happen to be in the address book that you have met or conversed with a couple of times.

Very complicated is it not?

 

[stellam]

Have any arrangements been made with regards to the funeral of Camilla's father, Major Shand?

Stellad

 

[grevinnan]

There is a big difference between being a personal friend and a useful acquaintance. It is sometimes very difficult to distinguish which group someone belongs to. However, over time the distinction usually makes itself known.

 

[WindsorIII]

originally posted by Stellad
Have any arrangements been made with regards to the funeral of Camilla's father, Major Shand?

Stellad

I only know that arrangments are being made for a private, family funeral. I don't think it will be a big media event. They've asked the press to back off out of respect for Camilla.

My guess is it will be a low key, just close family funeral. Although I suspect we will see a few photos anyways.

 

[stellam]

Thank you Windsor111

Stellad

 

[selrahc4]

Most aristocrats, nobility, and royalty if nothing else have exquisite good manners. Typical of this, I think, would be what James Callaghan once said when discussing the time he was Prime Minister, that the Queen offers "friendliness but not friendship".

 

[Duchess]

about the class system - as long as you're useful you're in(even if you don't have titles and wealth but better if you have money and breeding). once you've outlived your usefulness the butler will show you the door. most country's have the same system....try breaking into high society in...say new york or washington or palm beach or beverly hills or toronto or vancouver or ottawa. the only difference is that the upper classes (at lease in north america) wish they had the nobles and aristocrats that the UK has.

 

[Elspeth]

This really isn't the appropriate place for an in-depth discussion of the class system. Could we perhaps get back on topic?

Elspeth

British royals moderator

 

[julial]

Camilla, did not come from as good background as Diana... thus, she was not a good match to Charles previously. Now she is the consort of the future king-her status has been elebated by love. Not refering to the Duchess of Cornwall, but I always find it intersting that it is usually those who made it who behave quite snobby than those who are actually born into it.

 

[julial]

Do you think Charles would never have been interested in Camilla if she hasn't been from an aristocratic or gentry background? What about Sarah Ferguson? Sie descends from landed gentry but doesn't behave accordingly. At least in my opinion.

Another view on the British class system: I found it very interesting when I lived for some time in Belsize Village, London that while the British seemed to be very class-conscious they didn't take this attitude on viewing foreigners. At least I never had the feeling that someone did. And due to my profession (I'm a wine and spirits expert) then I had a lot of contacts to people of the upper class as well - both in London and Scotland. Okay, I knew I was judged for who I was - but nobody ever asked about my family background, the way I spoke English and the knowledge in my topic seemed to be enough.
Which I consider a very pleasant way to behave as here in Germany it's mostly money that counts today.

Well Charles did not choose Camilla based on her social status...
I find it interesting that many Brisith gentlemen tend to choose some random Asian women with no particular background as their wives. I guess if you do not come from the same social system, such as being foreigners, it might actually work better in terms of being friendly. People from same background tend to look at each other more harshly because they know too well. One thing I noticed-the ones who are at the top of the social pyramid seem not caring all that much about who they associate, date or marry... look at Frederick, Joachim, Philippe, Max, Hakkon, Victoria, and others... they all choose their partners from non aristocratic background. In fact, those partners’s previous social standing may not even be middle class.

I did not know the social value of Germany was similar to that of the United Sates-the center of Capitalism. Usually countries with longer affluent history value more of culture and class, than those new countries. For example, I was surprised to find out that the country of Liechtenstein is actually quite wealthy yet people seem no need to show off.

In one way or another, I have read that Diana did not behave too upperclass when it concerned about "stiff upper lips" and this was not well-liked by those in the same class, if not royals. Camilla, on the other hand, I read, is more liked by the royal circles due to her maturity and discreetness. Diana was very much liked by people outside of her own class-so she was as political as her counterparts.