Prince Harry Current Events 23: July 2008-May 2009

[ghost_night554]

They will only launch an investigation if a complaint is made, it is quite possible with the wall to wall coverage this is getting on all of the UK TV news stations and papers, someone, somewhere will now complain.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1111882/Ahmed-extraordinary-cadet-father-joked-Charles.html

Well that's good to know seems as though an official investigation won't be happening.

The Army will not launch a formal investigation because no complaint has been made, and it is understood that the Prince's swift apology and the length of time since the offence will be taken into account.

but then it says..

Prince Harry's use of the word 'Paki' about an Asian colleague will be looked at by the Ministry of Defence.

 

[Incas]

How does anyone judge any event except on their personal experience and by their reading of history and current events?CH issued a statement that Ahmed was his friend and that Paki was a group nickname.

Public relations statements such as the ones you are referring to is just standard issue. You can insert any regrets into it. Both you and I know just having the statement put out doesn't mean the media "outrage" will stop unless other bigger royal news come up.

The fact you are using "Paki" freely in your post seems to negate the level of aversion your comments suggest. If the term is truly as offensive to you personally as the "n"-word, you would reframe from spelling it out. Again, I'm just pointing out you are transferring what you perceived to be the "correct" emotion only represents your feelings. It's not the emotional response of the supposed injured party.

 

[bekalc]

How do we know that Harry isn't racist? I don't know if he is racist, but I don't think there is exactly proof out there that Harry isn't racist.

I know those are types of comments I would never make.

As for Ahmad being his "buddy" we don't know that either. They weren't exactly hanging out in the video, were they. In fact the guy's Uncle said that Ahmad never mentioned that he was friends with Harry.

It's totally possible that Ahmad was not comfortable with being called that term and "our little Paki friend, is so totally disrespectful" but didn't say anything because it's the army and he didn't want to draw attention to himself in that way.

 

[wbenson]

The fact you are using "Paki" freely in your post seems to negate the level of aversion your comments suggest. If the term is truly as offensive to you personally as the "n"-word, you would reframe from spelling it out.

sthreats has also spelled out "the n word" in other posts.

 

[Incas]

sthreats has also spelled out "the n word" in other posts.

I noticed. But that doesn't mean I personally want to spell it out in my posts. Two wrongs don't make a right!

 

[Skydragon]

I am as mystified as many posters on newspapers websites. What's so derogatory about "Paki", compared to Yanks or Brits? I'm curious as to what other short versions of foreign nationals are banned in Britain.

As an Army Officer, let alone 3rd in line to the throne, Harry used a word that is offensive to many here in the UK. It is the term used by Alf Garnet types, supporters of the BNP. If such a time comes that Harry has to command ordinary troops with any Pakistani members, their trust in their officer will have been eroded and thats why it is considered so unacceptable.

Many Americans that I know object to being called Yanks, all of the people from Pakistan I know object to being racially labelled, as they have every right to be. Germs, Nazi, Frog, Wog (hence the banning of the sale of golliwogs), Spade, ******, none are words you would use in any decent society, least of all to call one of your friends.

It was three years ago, it was wrong then but would be 100 times worse if it had been yesterday.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

As an Army Officer, let alone 3rd in line to the throne, Harry used a word that is offensive to many here in the UK. It is the term used by Alf Garnet types, supporters of the BNP. If such a time comes that Harry has to command ordinary troops with any Pakistani members, their trust in their officer will have been eroded and thats why it is considered so unacceptable.

Many Americans that I know object to being called Yanks, all of the people from Pakistan I know object to being racially labelled, as they have every right to be. Germs, Nazi, Frog, Wog (hence the banning of the sale of golliwogs), Spade, ******, none are words you would use in any decent society, least of all to call one of your friends.

It was three years ago, it was wrong then but would be 100 times worse if it had been yesterday.

I think I understand now what Skydragon wants to point out: the army is there for the real serious situations as war is no children's play. okay, most of the time it's nowadays a "potential" war situation, but that's not what these people are training for - they are training for the real thing. And that means that they need to be able to trust absolutely. It was much easier in the days of WWII or before - today we have seen a real change in society and not to the better when it comes to the real serious things. Points like solidarity, belonging, reliability are not longer at the center of people's perspective but the question: what do I personally get out of it?

In a canged situation like this such a verbal mishap is dangerous, as it undermines the trust of Pakistanian or other foreign soldiers (even if they held British passports) in their commanding officer Henry of Wales. But trust and belief are the things that hold an army together. So this is more than a mishap. It's a destasterfor Henry of Wales on the most important level of being officer: earning the trust, support and blind obeisance of your subalterns.

 

[wbenson]

I noticed. But that doesn't mean I personally want to spell it out in my posts. Two wrongs don't make a right!

That's not the point. You implied that sthreats didn't see "Paki" and "******" as equivalent, as she spelled the former out. Since she spells both out, that doesn't make sense. Edit: What I mean to say is that I see nothing that says to me that her "level of aversion" to the words is different.

 

[sthreats]

I hope that Harry's apology is sincere and not just CH spin. And that he realizes that he likely offended his fellow troop member. (without realizing it).I hope he takes this seriously.

 

[Royal Fan]

at his best he seens like a nice enough fellow im sure he has apologized personally hope this doesent destroy his career Long Live the House of Windsor!

 

[Enigma]

sorry seems to be the easiest word for prince harry! i hope he knows what the word sorry really means. it's not the first time and it's not going to be the last in my opinion.

 

[Incas]

Edit: What I mean to say is that I see nothing that says to me that her "level of aversion" to the words is different.

I got your meaning the first time. It's been noted before that some blacks consider their exclusive realm to use the "n"-word. Without going into personal details, I prefer not to spell out the term and get into another debate about who gets to spellout that word.

 

[ghost_night554]

at his best he seens like a nice enough fellow im sure he has apologized personally hope this doesent destroy his career Long Live the House of Windsor!

Ya, but I don't think this will destroy his career, unless someone is really offended by it but like I've said before he was obviously joking, I mean I get it's wrong to use it and stuff but he's apologized I don't know what else people want him to do and, seems like none of the other soldiers were bothered by his language, as for what his role will one day be in the army that's years away, I'm sure most people will have forgotten all about this by then and I'm sure Harry will have matured alot more by then, he's already seems to have grown up alot in the past year IMO.

 

[Skydragon]

sorry seems to be the easiest word for prince harry! i hope he knows what the word sorry really means. it's not the first time and it's not going to be the last in my opinion.

Sorry is one of the hardest words to say, IMO.

Beyond the realms of fantasy, he cannot go back in time and unsay any of it. He has apparently apologised, he can do no more.

 

[Idriel]

THE FACT that some Black comedians have used the word ****** in their humor does not make it an okay word to use

Pretending that the N word is only used in Chris Rock shows is amazingly dishonest.

I do respect your opinions but I believe that words have the power you give them. You feel entirely different. It is a fundamental difference and we will not possibly reach an agreement.

People also seem to think derogating terms are only used in a humorous way for minorities in the army, that the bia is racial only. That's completely untrue. If you are Welsh, you will likely be know as a taffy (I hope I got that right), etc.
They lampoon themselves in every possible ways. You may think that it is extremely distastefull to mock someone based on things he/she was born with and can't do anything about (like skin colour, country of origin, sexual orientation, social class), but it is common place in the army and at least nobody is protected from such teasing. Equal opportunity banter all the way.

To me, context, intent and purpose are paramount.

I wasn't in the least bit offended by anything Harry said.
I was however offended by Silvio Berlusconi's comments on Barack Obama's 'tan'. Silvio didn't use the N word but by he made the word 'tan' sound just as offensive, especially considering they were not private comments with his buddies but pretty much official statements made in a formal setting by an elected head of state.
If Harry goes on using the paki term outside the licentious world of the army (where much worse is allowed and considered completely normal) then we can make conclusions about his character. In this instance, he was just being one of the boys.

they are not isolated incidents. It was a standing joke

Probably right. That kind of banter goes on all the time, as I already pointed out, and as most young men (and the not so young too) in the military will be able to confirm to you.

Harry is not "anybody" he is the third in line to the throne - he should set an example.

He should set an example in private silly videos taken in private contexts? If it was filmed at a royal function, I would understand but can't he have down time and be silly. The video was probably stolen from someone private collection or sold by a 'friend' who turned out not worth of the trust. I am more worried about the example the backstabber and/or thief is setting here.
I have never seen him behaving anything but like a gentleman when he is on officitial duty (royal or army).

Above any sugestion of racism i actually think Harry's overall behaviour in the video clips is worse - i think he had a bit of an attitude, a bit of cockiness to him that i don't quite like but cant put my finger on exactly what it is.

I believe the term you are looking for is 'frat boy'. He behaves like a typical one, albeit an amusing one, imo.

How do we know that Harry isn't racist? I don't know if he is racist, but I don't think there is exactly proof out there that Harry isn't racist.

Indeed. But since calling someone a racist is the worst possible thing you can say about someone after calling him a pedophile, I am distressed at how casually that title is thrown around.
At this point, racist is the most overused and misused words in the English language, and it is doing a great disservice to a very real issue.
Considering the flimsy evidence and put in perspective with other things we know about him (like his commitment to the children of Lesotho, or his reported relationship with people from minorities, including that Black soldier he called the 'real hero' when he got back from Afghanistan), calling Harry a racist isn't giving him a bad name but rather is giving racists a good name.

Rant over.

 

[SillyBoy]

Prince Harry Video

Are the Brits seriously up at arms over the new video of Prince Harry that has been released? I don't really see the reason... I found this posting online that pretty much sums it up:

Rants, Thoughts & Merde: An Average Prince Harry

 

[SillyBoy]

Average Joe Prince Harry

I am wondering if the Brits are really as up at arms over the new Prince Harry video as the news is reporting.

I saw this posting with the video and thought it simply makes him come accross as an jock acting like a jock with his jock friends:

Rants, Thoughts & Merde: An Average Prince Harry

would luv for some feedback.

 

[Skydragon]

They lampoon themselves in every possible ways. You may think that it is extremely distastefull to mock someone based on things he/she was born with and can't do anything about (like skin colour, country of origin, sexual orientation, social class), but it is common place in the army and at least nobody is protected from such teasing. Equal opportunity banter all the way.

Some bullies may use a persons sexual orientation to ridicule or upset another soldier, it is still considered an absolute insult to suggest someone is a 'gay boy', nor is teasing of any type encouraged in most regiments.

If Harry goes on using the paki term outside the licentious world of the army (where much worse is allowed and considered completely normal) then we can make conclusions about his character. In this instance, he was just being one of the boys. Probably not. That kind of banter goes on all the time, as I already pointed out, and as most young men (and the not so young too) in the military will be able to confirm to you.

No much worse is not allowed, nor considered 'normal' within the Forces, hence the MODs involvement now this has come to light.

The Forces have been working hard to stop racist or other terms being used, it is not acceptable and shouldn't be. To say it is the norm and can be confirmed by anyone in the military is IMO, untrue.

Army investigates Prince's racist remark - Yahoo! News UK

An Army spokesman said: "The Army does not tolerate inappropriate behaviour in any shape or form. The Army takes all allegations of inappropriate behaviour very seriously and all substantive allegations are investigated. This specific case will be dealt with in line with normal Army procedures.

The father of a high-flying Pakistani officer cadet, who was called a "Paki" by Prince Harry in a home-made video, has "profoundly condemned" his actions.

Prince Harry 'Paki' row: Father of Pakistani officer 'profoundly condemns' the Prince - Telegraph

 

[ghost_night554]

Never mind, I guess a complaint of some sort was filed....

'Sorry's not good enough': Harry insult was disgraceful says father of Asian cadet called Paki by prince | Mail Online

 

[Skydragon]

Never mind, I guess a complaint of some sort was filed....

'Sorry's not good enough': Harry insult was disgraceful says father of Asian cadet called Paki by prince | Mail Online

No complaint has yet been filed, but because this is so public, the Army has no option but to investigate. The Mail article is wrong as it says he will be given a severe dressing down this week, I don't think the investigation has yet been held.

It was a stupid thing to say, deeply offensive, (if any of mine said that, their OC would be the easy option), but the media seem to be making a meal out of it. The more excuses people make, the longer the story will run. He has said he is sorry therefore he has accepted it was wrong, what more can he do.

 

[Idriel]

^^^ it has been confirmed by army people interviewed for articles and in the comment sections of news websites. I also have a couple of Army friends who have told me as much (about the kind of raucous behaviour and language that goes on behind doors).

You may have a different experience, I understand the British army isn't a monolithic block and maybe I should not have used 'most' (I didn't use 'anyone'). Maybe 'many' is more appropriate.

Bullying, intimidation, harassment, racial hatred an vicious behavior are of course unacceptable and offensive, and the army has rightly been fighting against such derives and abuses. And Harry would certainly not be receiving the kind of public support he has so far enjoyed if that what was the video depicted.
There has been incident of disgusting videos showing army recruits being degraded and humiliated (verbally and physically) and not a word of defence for the bullies was heard.
You are talking about a very different phenomenon here.

 

[christinacg]

It was a stupid thing to say, deeply offensive, (if any of mine said that, their OC would be the easy option), but the media seem to be making a meal out of it. The more excuses people make, the longer the story will run. He has said he is sorry therefore he has accepted it was wrong, what more can he do.

I think the RF will try to say as little as possible in the hopes of letting the story die down as soon as possible.

If Ahmed is indeed hurt by this, I think Harry should apologize to him in person or over the phone. If they were friends during the training I'm sure Ahmed will accept the apology.

 

[ghost_night554]

No complaint has yet been filed, but because this is so public, the Army has no option but to investigate. The Mail article is wrong as it says he will be given a severe dressing down this week, I don't think the investigation has yet been held.

It was a stupid thing to say, deeply offensive, (if any of mine said that, their OC would be the easy option), but the media seem to be making a meal out of it. The more excuses people make, the longer the story will run. He has said he is sorry therefore he has accepted it was wrong, what more can he do.

Thanks for explaining it, the Mail seriously try and confuse you with their headlines, I didn't have a good read I just skimmed through the first few lines.

 

[Skydragon]

it has been confirmed by army people interviewed for articles and in the comment sections of news websites.

It is never wise to rely on blogs or comment sections, taking one comment I saw, the person says he had a swarthy complexion and so was called 'Darkie', of course we have no idea if he was in the Army, least of all his rank. It is bad enough coming from the ranks, but more is expected of officers.

Harry made a mistake, he has apologised, which is a darn site more than many do!

 

[wbenson]

What worries me more than what he said is the fact that he said it with a camera present. Like with the vodka snorting incident, I think that shows much more about his judgment than the actual incident. For anyone, and especially a person in his position where the people who are going to care number in the millions, you don't do anything on camera, even if you trust the person doing it at the time being, that you don't want everyone to find out about. Hopefully he's learned that in the intervening three years, though.

 

[Royal Fan]

The News seems to always make big deals out of everything,although I See their point in respect I Just hope the Monarchy can survive as long as possible.

 

[Roslyn]

What Harry did was foolish and immature, IMO. A lot has happened in his life since then, and he has grown up a lot and has been to war. I bet he regrets that he said what he said, and particularly that the incident was recorded.

I can't get excited about what he said though. It's all very well and good and politically correct to say we shouldn't make racist remarks, or remarks that might be taken to be racist, but that overlooks the fact that we are human beings with thousands of years of human history beind us. We come from tribes and nations which have historical differences and fears and even hatreds of other groups, and till quite recently racism was a normal part of life, practised at official level.

Because of migration, these days we sometimes find ourselves brought together into groups comprising people from vastly different racial and cultural backgrounds. It's difficult to homogenise a heterogeneous group of people, and not within one or two generations, and there are going to be "incidents".

When in the relaxed safety of a trusted number of our own social and cultural group, many of us say things to each other which we would not say in groups of the general public, and which could well be taken to be racist or at least ethnocentric. I certainly do, and so do many of my friends, but no-one is interested enough in what we say to record it and publish it.

Harry has to accept that people do want to publish what he says and does, so he has to be particularly careful and has to regard all video and sound recording devices with deep suspicion, and be on his guard and not do or say anything in the vicinity of such things that he would not like printed on the front page of the paper. Better still, much safer to not do or say anything anywhere that he would not like to see on the front page of the paper, because with the tiny recording devices like mobile phones that people have now, he can never be sure what's being recorded. This restriction is one of the prices he has to pay for being who he is.

But it happened three years ago! Too long to dredge up now. He's probably already learnt the lesson I'm talking about. The wretched paper would have known what the knee-jerk reaction would be, and is probably enjoying it.

 

[Mermaid1962]

This has occurred to me as well. Harry is 24 years old now, and his behaviour can no longer be excused on the basis of youthful highjinks.

I am glad that he apologized, but notice that he again used that "if" that was used in his apology about the Nazi uniform. Does he really think that there are large number of people who DON'T find this language offensive?

What worries me more than what he said is the fact that he said it with a camera present. Like with the vodka snorting incident, I think that shows much more about his judgment than the actual incident.

 

[christinacg]

This has occurred to me as well. Harry is 24 years old now, and his behaviour can no longer be excused on the basis of youthful highjinks.

Keep in mind, he was 21 at the time, if that makes much of a difference.

 

[Ella Kay]

Good point about the presence of the camera, wbenson. You would think that someone who has been so subject to the media glare throughout his life would be more guarded around cameras. I think the whole thing is just incredibly unfortunate. He should really, really know better.