Prince Harry Current Events 23: July 2008-May 2009

[Idriel]

The reason that they can't use those words is that they have been used deliberately as derogative terms against specific groups of people. It is the same as using the 'n....' word in the USA when referring to people of Afro-American background.

The word is derogative when you use it in a derogative way. In this particular situation, it was obviously not used as a racial slur, but in a jokey way.
The N word is used liberally by many Black people who have reappropriated the word. I remember seeing this group of White people at a Obama rally proudly displaying a 'Rednecks for Obama' banner. I myself have no problem being jokingly called a 'bloody frog' by my English friends. Etc, etc.
The intend with which you say a word matters more than the word itself.
You can put a lot of hatred in neutral words and make them offensive or you can render strip offensive words from their power if you don't put any malice or hatred in them.

And context does matter: Army boys (or boys in general) will constantly tease each other on everything and anything (sexual orientation, social background, nationality, even, apparently, the color of their pubic hair). It may not be the height of witticism but I can't see how that is offending or unexpected.

There is something lacking in this yourg man's understanding of the world and the people within it, probably due to something lacking in his education.

Nobody ever accused him of being worldly but I can't see how anyone can make any serious conclusions about Harry's values, political leaning or ethical values from a silly 3min video clip.

 

[ghost_night554]

^First off I have to agree with you Idriel and secondly another Harry related article

Daily Star: Simply The Best 7 Days A Week :: News :: Boozy Harry’s wings clipped

 

[James in London]

Idriel: "Even funnier is NOTW 'outrage' at an army boy using slang and rude terms (of course, soldiers conversation usually sound straight off an Evelyn Waugh novel).
I won't even get into the pure comedy that is NOTW (the Sun's sister paper) and the Daily Mail, both the most bigoted, xenophobic and fascist publications in England calling anyone a racist." I so agree - the bigotry and hypocrisy of the British media makes my blood boil. They are so xenophobic, homophobic and mysoginistic that this really does scream 'I live in a glass house!'

So - another storm in a teacup. Is Hal shaping up to be the new Prince Philip I wonder? Look - I don't like the terms he uses, but they get used, and I think people have to be grown up about it. It is a shame that someone like Harry whose education was so expensive and well thought through is doing this, but then, he's not meant to be the sharpest tool in the box - but someone who is dedicated to his military career... And I think we have to accept that military men do have a bit of an earthy and un-PC sense of humour. NOt that I am making excuses for him, hopefully he now knows better and appreciates he offence these terms can make (not that it did here I hasten to add...)

In the past three years, as other commentators have said, he has grown up a lot, so he just has to do a big mea culpa and move on.

Ignoring the racism, my favourite bit was the fake phone cal to his Granny - hilarious!
From BBC news "Meanwhile, during a faked call to the Queen, as the Commander in Chief of the British Army, the prince says: "Granny I've got to go, send my love to the Corgis and Grandpa."
He finishes saying: "I've got to go, got to go, bye. God Save You ... yeah, that's great." "

Has anyone called this Harrygate yet? Matter of time surely....

 

[Skydragon]

I don't particularly care for Harry's remarks (in fact, I find them distasteful), but I think it's safe to say that soldiers are under a lot of stress and find humour where they can.

These remarks were made when Harry was still at Sandhurst, so he wasn't under any stress at all. The labeling of another officer cadet by ethnic background was and is totally unacceptable. However it was three years ago, before the Nazi uniform fiasco and hopefully Harry has matured enough to know it is not the done thing. Calling men in Iraq and Afghanistan 'Rag Heads', is rife in the entire country as is 'questioning' what the SM has ordered you to do, I do hope however, that Harry has learned it is the non comms and ordinary soldiers who do most of the work, (I say that with one 'grunt' and umpteen Officers in the fold).

The major complaint I have is that once again the palace spokesperson has made it so much worse by releasing a statement, which tells us that it was a nickname. That is clearly unlikely to be true.

Harry was an idiot for using a derogatory term for a fellow cadet, he really should now show some intelligence and look to replacing some members of his PR team, who pour oil on troubled waters!

 

[Skydragon]

IMO I hope they don`t launch an investigation, I don`t think it`s needed, you`d have to be dumb to not realize he was just joking.

They will only launch an investigation if a complaint is made, it is quite possible with the wall to wall coverage this is getting on all of the UK TV news stations and papers, someone, somewhere will now complain.

It is only a joke if the subject is involved and so far the reports are saying the other cadet was unaware of the comment.
-------------------
The Conservative leader said the Prince was right to have said sorry after being caught on video referring to his colleague Ahmed Raza Khan as "our little Paki friend".

Prince Harry's 'Paki' comments 'completely unacceptable', says David Cameron - Telegraph

The ‘Ahmed’ referred to by Prince Harry in the video is thought to be his fellow Sandhurst trainee Ahmed Raza Khan.
Khan passed out of Sandhurst with the highest possible honour for an overseas cadet – winning the coveted ‘Overseas Sword’

'Ahmed' the extraordinary cadet whose father joked with Charles | Mail Online

 

[BeatrixFan]

Trust Harry. Why is that when the RF gets on an even keel with no problems, one member puts their foot in by doing something stupid. Honestly.

 

[Luv2Cruise]

Skydragon as usual, ever the level head.

 

[QUEENECE29]

Prince's apology for racist term
BBC NEWS | UK | Prince's apology for racist term

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7822739.stm

 

[christinacg]

I've never known "Paki" to be a derogatory term over here in the US. I can't speak for Harry if he knew it to be or not. But the way he said it in the video was not derogatory at all. I agree the Prince Harry doesn't always have the smartest judgement in some of the things that he does being that he is a prince. But we all know he strives to be "normal" and thats exactly how he was acting in the video amongst his comrades. I think if anybody wants to take action against Harry for these remarks, they better look at the army as a whole and not this one individual. In fact they better look at their society as a whole. I think its a disgrace the way the media has always saught to ruin Harry's reputations and all of the good things he does are so easily forgotten. I really feel bad for him this morning, b/c I don't think he's stupid or racist or anything like how he's being made out to be. But I really hope from now on he'll avoid behaving like that when camera's are around.

But I'm happy to say, that most of the comments this morning on the newspaper websites are still positive for Harry. So it seems like the public is mostly ok with it but the media is trying to make something more of it (as usual).

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Young men often say derogative things camouflaged as nicknames about somebody they view as an over-achiever. Maybe this was the case here as well. Let's hope that Harry has learned in the meantime that he isn't "one of the boys" when it comes to say things like that. Part of the price he has to pay for being a prince of the UK.

 

[Idriel]

But I'm happy to say, that most of the comments this morning on the newspaper websites are still positive for Harry. So it seems like the public is mostly ok with it but the media is trying to make something more of it (as usual).

Yes indeed.
It is quite telling, considering that one of the British public favourite pastime is knocking down the royals, that the majority of the comments in every single mainstream news outlet websites (BBC, Sky News, DM, NoTW, Times, even the liberal Independent) are supportive of Harry and dismissive of that story.

 

[zembla]

It's in the NY papers too, but I'm going to agree with everyone and say that it looks like they are just having fun...I don't think this was some malicious rant. Of course that won't stop people from exploiting it as such...

The nazi thing was another story but this seems harmless.

 

[Incas]

I am as mystified as many posters on newspapers websites. What's so derogatory about "Paki", compared to Yanks or Brits? I'm curious as to what other short versions of foreign nationals are banned in Britain.

 

[Naggi]

See definition: Paki - Wiktionary

There is no humour in making a racist comment - especially if you are an army member and as in Harry’s case, also a high profile member of the British royal family! No matter in which mood he was, what he said and how he acted in this video is wrong. Yes, he was young, but still old enough so that he should have been aware of the offensiveness of such words.
Maybe the army language is like this, I have no idea, but this doesn't make Harry's behaviour right. I also do not care that much what Harry does, but he has embarrassed not only his family, as it seems they could not raise him to be respectful and thoughtful, but also the British army, above all Sandhurst, for its lack to give its cadets a proper education not only with guns but also in how a soldier should act.
I live as a minority almost all my live now and I know exactly how such derogative words – even if they are spoken in a “humorous” way, can hurt and offend people. You see things differently when you know that the person he is talking about could be you.

 

[sthreats]

The word is derogative when you use it in a derogative way. In this particular situation, it was obviously not used as a racial slur, but in a jokey way.
The N word is used liberally by many Black people who have reappropriated the word. I remember seeing this group of White people at a Obama rally proudly displaying a 'Rednecks for Obama' banner. I myself have no problem being jokingly called a 'bloody frog' by my English friends. Etc, etc.
The intend with which you say a word matters more than the word itself.
You can put a lot of hatred in neutral words and make them offensive or you can render strip offensive words from their power if you don't put any malice or hatred in them.

And context does matter: Army boys (or boys in general) will constantly tease each other on everything and anything (sexual orientation, social background, nationality, even, apparently, the color of their pubic hair). It may not be the height of witticism but I can't see how that is offending or unexpected.Nobody ever accused him of being worldly but I can't see how anyone can make any serious conclusions about Harry's values, political leaning or ethical values from a silly 3min video clip.

THE FACT that some Black comedians have used the word ****** in their humor does not make it an okay word to use. And it is never okay for a white person to call someone their '****** friend' and then say it was just a joke. I have heard ****** jokes (by whites) since I was five and it always hurt. Just because Ahmed didn't beat up Harry on tape doesn't mean he wasn't insulted. I hope Harry had sense enough to personally apologize. (sorry I didn't use "the n word" but I don't believe in euphemisms)

 

[christinacg]

^But "Paki" is what people form Pakistan call themselves, for short. I saw a whole website about it. Its only used as a racist term by certain people in certain contexts, from what I understand. Obviously thats not how Harry was using it. And this guy Ahmed is said to be a friend of Harry.

 

[Incas]

If the negative connotation were acquired "in the 1960s when used by British tabloids ", that meant there wasn't a negative reference before and why can't its meaning be changed again?

There is a website: www.paki.com with the subheading "Biggest Parkistani online community". Is this one of those instances where only the natives can use any term they can to discribe themselves and no one else can use the same term?

 

[Shaiya]

^But "Paki" is what people form Pakistan call themselves, for short. I saw a whole website about it. Its only used as a racist term by certain people in certain contexts, from what I understand. Obviously thats not how Harry was using it. And this guy Ahmed is said to be a friend of Harry.

The word "Paki" carries with it a negative connotation just as the word "******" does. It doesn't matter if some people of Pakistani descent call themselves that word, it was still inappropriate of the grandson of the British monarch to use that about ANYONE. There is absolutely no excuse for his atrocious behaviour in that video. But what can I say, we all know Harry's a spoiled idiot.

 

[Naggi]

I think that the real issues here are who leaked this and why. For profit? To undermine the reputation of the member of the Royal Family? I don't particularly care for Harry's remarks (in fact, I find them distasteful), but I think it's safe to say that soldiers are under a lot of stress and find humour where they can.

The photos from Guantanamo also were never meant to be published, but there is always someone who wants to profit from publishing such material. The soldiers were not even famous people and for sure did not expect the publishing of these photos, but Harry must be aware of his attraction to people who would like to make profit with his pictures - especially when taken on private occasions. The Guantanamo soldiers were even under more pressure and stress than a cadet Harry was at Sandhurst. And on the photos you can see that some soldiers are having a "fun time", I am sure, that they did not wanted to be offensive, maybe they were just trying to find "humour where they could".

Please please please do not misunderstand me; I am NOT comparing Harry's behaviour with that of the soldiers in Guantanamo at all! But I am asking myself where can we draw a line? Where can we excuse inappropriate behaviour in the army (and again, we have here also the case, that this has been done by a royal member who is third to the British throne) and where not?

 

[christinacg]

The word "Paki" carries with it a negative connotation just as the word "******" does. It doesn't matter if some people of Pakistani descent call themselves that word, it was still inappropriate of the grandson of the British monarch to use that about ANYONE. There is absolutely no excuse for his atrocious behaviour in that video. But what can I say, we all know Harry's an idiot.

"Atrocious behavior"? You don't like Harry, thats fine. But he didn't tar and feather the guy for being from Pakistan. He said it like he would call someone from Denmark "Our little Dane friend". So maybe he's ignorant for not knowing that that word could be offensive to some, but he wasn't being malicous, we all know that.

I'm so sickened right now about the media's coverage about it. I saw one news channel headline it "Prince's racist rant". They're all trying to make it worse than it was so that if people don't watch the video themselves, they'll walk away thinking Harry is a racist. He surely isn't. I seriously feel bad for him. Make's me glad I wasn't born into the royal family where everything you do is ridiculed.

 

[Incas]

Just because Ahmed didn't beat up Harry on tape doesn't mean he wasn't insulted. I hope Harry had sense enough to personally apologize.

On the tape, Harry zoomed in toward Ahmed from a distance. The two men were in different aisles in the waiting area. Ahmed didn't appear to know he was being filmed. Harry was not speaking in a loud voice, Ahemd didn't appear to have heard any of Harry's words. It's ridiculous to suggest Ahmed's feelings at that time.

It's not known if the tape was circulated within the group previously. If any insult was made, the finger should be pointed at the newspaper's and whoever broadcasts the film. I'm sure the reports would have to all get him on camera in person now to get his "feelings" and being called Paki to his face in the name of responsible journalism. They already got his uncle to say what they expected.

 

[Incas]

There is absolutely no excuse for his atrocious behaviour in that video.

Seriously, atrocious?! A bit over the top to on dramatic affect.

 

[Jacknch]

I for one am very proud of Prince Harry for having the guts to carry out his duties with bravery and hard work alongside his fellow soldiers. He is an asset to this country and to the army. I believe he does a very good job and is certainly a better man than most of the tabloid writers and editors who wouldn't last five minutes on the battle field. Prince Harry also has a lovely sensitive side with his amazing charity work with children and his ability to communicate with them on their level. It is unfortunate that this video has been released in the way it has been and it is unfortunate that Harry made reference to his buddy using that phrase. Life in the army and indeed in the other forces is very different from civvy life and the P word is certainly not the worst phrase that is going to be used in banter between the lads. It's a tough hard life and unfortunately being politically correct is not at the forefront of these mens' lives all the time. It is easy for civvies like us to be shocked at such a phrase and for it even to be on Harry's mind all those years ago, but in this instance it was a phrase used as a term of endearment. I think we can be assured that Harry is not a racist, nore does he see people from Pakistan or South Asia or anywhere else for that matter as being less worthy people than the rest of the world. When someone does something wrong or makes a mistake they are expected to apologise and say sorry. Harry has done so and made it clear beyond doubt that he had no intention of upsetting anyone. It is therefore incumbant upon the rest of the world including the tabloids to accept his apology. Of course, this news story is indeed a reminder to us that all so-called "nicknames" have the potential upset people and we must be careful with what we say and ensure we respect people of all races, creeds and colours.

 

[christinacg]

I for one am very proud of Prince Harry for having the guts to carry out his duties with bravery and hard work alongside his fellow soldiers. He is an asset to this country and to the army. I believe he does a very good job and is certainly a better man than most of the tabloid writers and editors who wouldn't last five minutes on the battle field. Prince Harry also has a lovely sensitive side with his amazing charity work with children and his ability to communicate with them on their level. It is unfortunate that this video has been released in the way it has been and it is unfortunate that Harry made reference to his buddy using that phrase. Life in the army and indeed in the other forces is very different from civvy life and the P word is certainly not the worst phrase that is going to be used in banter between the lads. It's a tough hard life and unfortunately being politically correct is not at the forefront of these mens' lives all the time. It is easy for civvies like us to be shocked at such a phrase and for it even to be on Harry's mind all those years ago, but in this instance it was a phrase used as a term of endearment. I think we can be assured that Harry is not a racist, nore does he see people from Pakistan or South Asia or anywhere else for that matter as being less worthy people than the rest of the world. When someone does something wrong or makes a mistake they are expected to apologise and say sorry. Harry has done so and made it clear beyond doubt that he had no intention of upsetting anyone. It is therefore incumbant upon the rest of the world including the tabloids to accept his apology. Of course, this news story is indeed a reminder to us that all so-called "nicknames" have the potential upset people and we must be careful with what we say and ensure we respect people of all races, creeds and colours.

All very well said, thank you.

 

[tommy1716]

I do think this is being overblown by the medi, but then thats what to be expected. I do think though that it can't be said that "everyone does it" etc, Harry is not "anybody" he is the third in line to the throne - he should set an example. I'm not saying he cant have a life but there are some things he just shouldn't do. I have to say that i think the explanation that Harry was using a nickname is a bit much. And comments such as "he is in the army" are a bit much - if he was under fire in battle i would see that as an excuse - but he was in an airport and bored - not exaclty a stressful environment is it (unless you take into account Heathrow)
However the incident was three years ago, people change, people mature and I think Harry has. Above any sugestion of racism i actually think Harry's overall behaviour in the video clips is worse - i think he had a bit of an attitude, a bit of cockiness to him that i don't quite like but cant put my finger on exactly what it is.
And the end of the day - it was three years ago, to someone he knew and it wasnt as if he was yelling out at Pakistani people on the streets. I think it provide a intresting insight into Harry's personality but doesn't uncover some racist crime.

 

[Naggi]

I for one am very proud of Prince Harry for having the guts to carry out his duties with bravery and hard work alongside his fellow soldiers. He is an asset to this country and to the army. I believe he does a very good job and is certainly a better man than most of the tabloid writers and editors who wouldn't last five minutes on the battle field. Prince Harry also has a lovely sensitive side with his amazing charity work with children and his ability to communicate with them on their level. It is unfortunate that this video has been released in the way it has been and it is unfortunate that Harry made reference to his buddy using that phrase. Life in the army and indeed in the other forces is very different from civvy life and the P word is certainly not the worst phrase that is going to be used in banter between the lads. It's a tough hard life and unfortunately being politically correct is not at the forefront of these mens' lives all the time. It is easy for civvies like us to be shocked at such a phrase and for it even to be on Harry's mind all those years ago, but in this instance it was a phrase used as a term of endearment. I think we can be assured that Harry is not a racist, nore does he see people from Pakistan or South Asia or anywhere else for that matter as being less worthy people than the rest of the world. When someone does something wrong or makes a mistake they are expected to apologise and say sorry. Harry has done so and made it clear beyond doubt that he had no intention of upsetting anyone. It is therefore incumbant upon the rest of the world including the tabloids to accept his apology. Of course, this news story is indeed a reminder to us that all so-called "nicknames" have the potential upset people and we must be careful with what we say and ensure we respect people of all races, creeds and colours.

For my part, I do not judge on Harry as being a racist - I do not have reason or right to do so. I also do not know if Harry is brave. You seem to know something about him that I do not But unless this video is not a fake one, I know that he has made a racist comment. The fact that he turned out to be a "hero on the battlefield" years later, and has done many charities, can not and should not excuse such a comment made. The fact that the Royal House apologized officially proves that there indeed was something wrong in Harry's behavior. This apology is a real one when Harry has learnt something from it: namely called a hero on some occations is not a free ticket to act inapropriate on other occations.

 

[sthreats]

To IncasIn my 40+ years on this earth as a black woman, it has been my experience that when these type of racial comments are going around they are not isolated incidents. Harry was not the only one calling Ahmed a Paki -it was a standing joke. And unless you have been on the continous receiving end of this type of 'humor' , please do not refer to my comment as ridiculous. I happen to think Harry is a positive young man who has done and will do a lot of good for the world. But as my daughter's third grade teacher says "Right is right and Wrong is wrong."

 

[Incas]

Sthreats, I'm only pointing out that people are projecting their personal opinions into the incident as that of the principles. It is not fair to say you know exactly how Ahmed was feeling unless you have had direction communications with him. Your personal experience is irrelevant to what was said and felt between the two men in the tape.

 

[Jacknch]

For my part, I do not judge on Harry as being a racist - I do not have reason or right to do so. I also do not know if Harry is brave. You seem to know something about him that I do not But unless this video is not a fake one, I know that he has made a racist comment. The fact that he turned out to be a "hero on the battlefield" years later, and has done many charities, can not and should not excuse such a comment made. The fact that the Royal House apologized officially proves that there indeed was something wrong in Harry's behavior. This apology is a real one when Harry has learnt something from it: namely called a hero on some occations is not a free ticket to act inapropriate on other occations.

I agree with you entirely.

 

[sthreats]

Sthreats, I'm only pointing out that people are projecting their personal opinions into the incident as that of the principles. It is not fair to say you know exactly how Ahmed was feeling unless you have had direction communications with him. Your personal experience is irrelevant to what was said and felt between the two men in the tape.

How does anyone judge any event except on their personal experience and by their reading of history and current events?CH issued a statement that Ahmed was his friend and that Paki was a group nickname. Whether just Harry said it or 30 people said it --its not right.