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  #101  
Old 12-12-2008, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
And if we believe that we will believe anything. What selection officers are going to risk their careers by turning Harry down!

The moment it was announced to the media that he would be trying out for the job, he was guaranteed the position.
you might be right skydragon ...

Prince Harry’s chopper pilot dreams in danger? | Top News

Quote:
Though the third in line to the throne has won a medium grading after he took to the skies behind the controls of a Slingsby Firefly trainer plane, he is yet to master the classroom theory to earn a place on the next stage.
“He’s a good flier. Very confident, very calm. Great natural manual skills and co-ordination and a good sense of what’s around him in the air,” the Daily Star quoted a source at the base as saying. “But the theory is a real stretch for him,” the source added.
... and will always be.
As much as teachers were not willing to risk their jobs years ago and decided to push Harry through Eton, officers were not willing to risk their jobs this time and decided to push Harry through the selection process.

Question is and we will see in shortly over a year, will Harry even be pushed to the degree that he will be among those 2% who end up in an Apache or will he rather be among those who end up flying a general purpose Gazelle or a Lynx battlefield utility helicopter, which is used for anti-tank and reconnaissance operations, still a front line job.
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  #102  
Old 12-12-2008, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
And if we believe that we will believe anything. What selection officers are going to risk their careers by turning Harry down!

The moment it was announced to the media that he would be trying out for the job, he was guaranteed the position.
I don't see how we should have any reason to believe he didn't earn his place fair and square. At his present level of selection, there is a 50% success rate, so why not at the very least give him the benefit of the doubt?
It doesn't take academic brightness to be a regular pilot: co-ordination, spacial intelligence, physical fitness and alertness are far more important. Of course, it involves theoretical knowledge, but because you actually get to physically experience the principles you are taught, it tends to be easier to learn them.
When and if Harry get through the elite 2%, those who actually need to be much brighter than average because they are piloting very complex airships, then it will be time to be cynical.
In the meantime, I certainly hope Harry isn't surrounded with people who belittle all of his achievements because if he is going to get the same level of criticism going to nightclubs and showing a bit of professional ambition, he might as well just have fun.
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  #103  
Old 12-12-2008, 08:10 AM
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I am afraid I am a bit cynical about this like Sky. But, the proof will be known in the future, when we see what or if he ends up flying.
Anyway good luck to him and all the others training with him.
  #104  
Old 12-12-2008, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
And if we believe that we will believe anything. What selection officers are going to risk their careers by turning Harry down!

The moment it was announced to the media that he would be trying out for the job, he was guaranteed the position.
Yes, but what else could they do? Harry is not responsible for his birth and the position it came with. He obviously has had neither academic nor religious callings. He can't take up a job in politics or business. According to family tradition he had to go to the army anyway. So he probably thought: why not making this my profession? but when he realised nobody wanted to risk his life at the front line and that his wish to see active service would endanger his comrades, what was he to do? Staying home on becoming a guard of his grandmother's? Or seeking a place within the army where he is endangered anyway?

On becoming a frontline pilot he is a target. Not because of who he is but because of what and where he flies. I don't see any other position in the whole army where this is so except in the cockpit of a plane or helicopter.
Yes, the figures are low when it comes to successfully passing the exams/tests, but I don't think this is because only so few applicants have the talent, knowledge and skills, but because so many apply for only a few positions. So for me it is okay, considering the very limited choices Harry has on being active soldier without endangering his comrades, that he gets one of the positions on offer, once he passed the testings.

I don't think he is not capable of being a good pilot. In this case the MoD would have had an open talk with Charles first and then told Harry that he simply couldn't do the job. No, I think he will be as capable as his uncle was, he will one day when Britain has ended its part in global wars, return home a hero and they will find a nice position for him which he will enjoy after having sown his wild oats.
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  #105  
Old 12-13-2008, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Idriel View Post
I don't see how we should have any reason to believe he didn't earn his place fair and square. At his present level of selection, there is a 50% success rate, so why not at the very least give him the benefit of the doubt?
It doesn't take academic brightness to be a regular pilot: co-ordination, spacial intelligence, physical fitness and alertness are far more important. Of course, it involves theoretical knowledge, but because you actually get to physically experience the principles you are taught, it tends to be easier to learn them.
Military pilots must be different then, because the standard is much higher than for private pilots here.
Quote:
When and if Harry get through the elite 2%, those who actually need to be much brighter than average because they are piloting very complex airships, then it will be time to be cynical.
I stand by my opinion that Harry was guaranteed acceptance to this course, whether he showed any aptitude or not. It would be more honest to have announced that it has been decided to train Harry for the role, than suggest he has to compete to get the job, just like any Officer applying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
---snipped---- Yes, but what else could they do?
Nothing but honesty is the best policy and I'm sure the dozens of men and women who also tried out, were better but were turned down, would have been more accepting of an announcement that he would be training, rather than he stands as much chance as anyone else.
Quote:
I don't think he is not capable of being a good pilot. In this case the MoD would have had an open talk with Charles first and then told Harry that he simply couldn't do the job. No, I think he will be as capable as his uncle was, he will one day when Britain has ended its part in global wars, return home a hero and they will find a nice position for him which he will enjoy after having sown his wild oats.
Let us hope you are right about his capabilities, because men and women might have to rely on him.
  #106  
Old 12-13-2008, 07:42 AM
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Jo I would have loved to be present when the MOD told Prince Charles that his son was not up to it...... all hypothetical of course, but it would be something to see and remember.
  #107  
Old 12-13-2008, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
Military pilots must be different then, because the standard is much higher than for private pilots here.
I wasn't talking standards but aptitudes.
Quote:
It would be more honest to have announced that it has been decided to train Harry for the role, than suggest he has to compete to get the job, just like any Officer applying.
As your rightly said, this is your opinion. I am not questioning your right to have an opinion, and certainly yours is held by a vast number of military type and civilians alike, but you have no proof of that so you cannot accuse anyone of dishonesty over an unproven opinion.
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I'm sure the dozens of men and women who also tried out, were better but were turned down
Were you intimately familiar with the crop of candidate to gauge their value with such certainty? Again, a 50% success rate is quite decent. I would not call this test elite by any stretch of the imagination.
Quote:
Let us hope you are right about his capabilities, because men and women might have to rely on him.
Agreed.
So far he has proved to be dedicated and very loyal to his men, as he calls them, so I am not exceedingly worried.
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  #108  
Old 12-14-2008, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
Military pilots must be different then, because the standard is much higher than for private pilots here . . . . . . . Let us hope you are right about his capabilities, because men and women might have to rely on him.
I absolutely agree Sky. I think it is more than probable that he has got where he is because of who he is.

However, come the time for the 2% selection I am putting my money on the integrity of the selection process. After all, falsely giving him a "pass" rate could cost lives, not least his own (and we won't even begin to talk about the cost of a pranged helicopter).

Let's see . . . . Live demon Prince? Dead angelic Prince? No brainer really!
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  #109  
Old 12-14-2008, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Idriel View Post
I wasn't talking standards but aptitudes. As your rightly said, this is your opinion. I am not questioning your right to have an opinion, and certainly yours is held by a vast number of military type and civilians alike, but you have no proof of that so you cannot accuse anyone of dishonesty over an unproven opinion.
Of course I can if the opinion is based on personal experience or knowledge by the 'military types'.
Quote:
Were you intimately familiar with the crop of candidate to gauge their value with such certainty? Again, a 50% success rate is quite decent. I would not call this test elite by any stretch of the imagination.
It is quite easy to work out (even without insider knowledge), for anyone connected to the military.
Quote:
So far he has proved to be dedicated and very loyal to his men, as he calls them.
He may call them 'his men', but how much better to call them the men in his unit, with whom he was stopped from serving and taking the same risks? Not his fault I know, but to call them 'his men' makes them sound like possessions.
  #110  
Old 12-14-2008, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by MARG View Post
I absolutely agree Sky. I think it is more than probable that he has got where he is because of who he is.

However, come the time for the 2% selection I am putting my money on the integrity of the selection process. After all, falsely giving him a "pass" rate could cost lives, not least his own (and we won't even begin to talk about the cost of a pranged helicopter).

Let's see . . . . Live demon Prince? Dead angelic Prince? No brainer really!
You must be one of those 'military types'.

I hope with the extra tuition he will pass on his own merit. An instructor that can help him through the theory might be an asset, because he strikes me as a lad who can think on his feet, just not academic in the normal way needed.
  #111  
Old 12-15-2008, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Menarue View Post
Jo I would have loved to be present when the MOD told Prince Charles that his son was not up to it...... all hypothetical of course, but it would be something to see and remember.
Why? Charles surely is used to "grey men" telling him all day long that this and that is unfortunately not possible. So it would have been just another of these talks, he would have discussed the situation with the aide and then they would have agreed on a position. Definately not something to see and remember. Charles was an active soldier for yars, commanding a boat and being responsible for his staff, including their chances for promotion. I'm sure he would be able to look at the situation with professional detachment.
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  #112  
Old 12-15-2008, 05:02 AM
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Tell Prince Charles what to do! You have a very different opinion of him than I do.
I thought it was his father Prince Philip that commanded a boat, but I just Googled and found that he commanded a coastal minehunter for 9 months, this only makes me think he would not take kindly to being told what to do or not to do by anyone.
  #113  
Old 12-15-2008, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post

I hope with the extra tuition he will pass on his own merit. An instructor that can help him through the theory might be an asset, because he strikes me as a lad who can think on his feet, just not academic in the normal way needed.
Oh, Skydragon, think of the young Prince of Orange of 1810-1815
and his becoming a British Field Marshall in the end:

From:Prince of Orange : Napoleonic Wars : Generals :

British General
King William II of the Netherlands
1792 -1849
Educated in Berlin and Oxford, the young Prince of Orange was an anglophile who served with the Duke of Wellington in the Peninsular War and during the 100 Days Campaign.
In 1815 he commanded I Corps of the Anglo-Allied army and did so with great personal courage.
Criticised for several major mistakes that led to many casualties, the prince was regarded by Wellington as inexperienced, rather than a bad soldier.
He became a British Field Marshal in 1845.
Wellington seems to have had a high opinion of the well-mannered, charming prince who he said was "liked by every person".
Becoming king in 1840, William II was a moderate reformer. "


So Harry as well is more inexperienced than bad soldier and may get the chance to gain experience.




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  #114  
Old 12-15-2008, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Menarue View Post
Tell Prince Charles what to do! You have a very different opinion of him than I do.
I thought it was his father Prince Philip that commanded a boat, but I just Googled and found that he commanded a coastal minehunter for 9 months, this only makes me think he would not take kindly to being told what to do or not to do by anyone.
I believe his position is one where diplomacy is a much needed gift and that he has been educated to be reasonable no matter what. I agree that his character seems to be one that is not reasonable at all times but in a situation like this he would be, in the best interest of his son and his country.
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  #115  
Old 12-15-2008, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
I stand by my opinion that Harry was guaranteed acceptance to this course, whether he showed any aptitude or not. It would be more honest to have announced that it has been decided to train Harry for the role, than suggest he has to compete to get the job, just like any Officer applying.Nothing but honesty is the best policy
Sky - You appear to be taking the view of "Guilty unless proven inncoent" with regard to Harry and his selection. Whilst I appreciate you may have a good understanding of life in the forces, thats not a view that I am agree with. Cynicism beyond my years, I am afraid!
  #116  
Old 12-15-2008, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
You must be one of those 'military types'.
Guilty as charged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skydragon
I hope with the extra tuition he will pass on his own merit. An instructor that can help him through the theory might be an asset, because he strikes me as a lad who can think on his feet, just not academic in the normal way needed.
I think you are right about this Sky. Harry seems more a soldier's soldier than "officer material" in that I believe his IQ is a lot higher than his school grades indicate. IMO he is a classic "late bloomer", scraped through school doing the mandatory minimum, cruises on until his mid-20's when having finally realised his amition, gets motivated to go after it.

I know a classic late bloomer who being bored out of his gourd, left school at 15 (minimum legal age), started felling forests, decided the Military Police looked good, aced it, moved to civvie street, moved to a career in Security and played at computer programs and systems for fun. He is now State CEO of a multinational security firm. All for no other reason than it caught his interest and motivated him at the time!

Sometimes I think we carefully "box" people into where we think they fit, but the military has a tradition of "wild cards" fom TE Lawrence to David Stirling to Tim Collins.
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  #117  
Old 12-15-2008, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
Of course I can if the opinion is based on personal experience or knowledge by the 'military types'.
Your military background do not elevate your opinions to the rank of facts. In this matter, the most you can do is an educated guess.
Quote:
It is quite easy to work out (even without insider knowledge), for anyone connected to the military.
Can you then post the results of all who have taken the tests alongside Harry, since such information are so readily available?
Quote:
He may call them 'his men', but how much better to call them the men in his unit, with whom he was stopped from serving and taking the same risks? Not his fault I know, but to call them 'his men' makes them sound like possessions.
But he is a troop leader so those are his men, no? I didn't think his soldiers would think that was insulting but I do take your opinion at face value here.
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  #118  
Old 12-15-2008, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Idriel View Post
Your military background do not elevate your opinions to the rank of facts.the most you can do is an educated guess In this matter, .
Can you post anything to substantiate your claim?
Quote:
Can you then post the results of all who have taken the tests alongside Harry, since such information are so readily available?
Where does it say that, here's what I wrote
Quote:
It is quite easy to work out (even without insider knowledge), for anyone connected to the military
Quote:
But he is a troop leader so those are his men, no? I didn't think his soldiers would think that was insulting but I do take your opinion at face value here.
Again, where does it say that? Would that be dollars or pounds?
  #119  
Old 12-15-2008, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
Oh, Skydragon, think of the young Prince of Orange of 1810-1815
and his becoming a British Field Marshall in the end:---snipped----
Criticised for several major mistakes that led to many casualties, the prince was regarded by Wellington as inexperienced, rather than a bad soldier.
---snipped---- So Harry as well is more inexperienced than bad soldier and may get the chance to gain experience.
Let us hope so, without any major mistakes leading to casualties.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARG View Post
Harry seems more a soldier's soldier than "officer material" in that I believe his IQ is a lot higher than his school grades indicate. IMO he is a classic "late bloomer", scraped through school doing the mandatory minimum, cruises on until his mid-20's when having finally realised his ambition, gets motivated to go after it
Yes, I agree completely, I also think some people are good at achieving good grades in exams but useless at anything practical, others are fantastic with the practical but fail every exam going. Harry would have been an absolutely brilliant private or non comm!
  #120  
Old 12-15-2008, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
Can you post anything to substantiate your claim?
Huh? My claim that your opinions are not facts? You can't be serious there.
The burden of providing evidences lies on the accuser.
You are the one who has to provide evidence to your claim that Harry got his place at the detriment of another candidate and that officials involved in his selection have been deceitful. Then it will be a fact. So far, you have brought nothing forward, so it's still guesswork.

You said
Quote:
It is quite easy to work out (even without insider knowledge), for anyone connected to the military.
I assumed you implied you had access to either the test results or at the very least some sort of hardcore evidence to work out, indeed, whether Harry had con his way in or not, with such ease. Which is why I asked you to please share. The 'I'm connected to the military, I know' is just not enough unless it's substantiated.
So again, I ask, based on what evidence did work things out?
Quote:
Again, where does it say that?
You said:
Quote:
to call them 'his men' makes them sound like possessions
I made the wild guess that some people would find that insulting or at least patronising and that is was the point you were trying to make. Obviously, you meant something else altogether, although what that is, I don't know. I don't even know why you are picking on that as I was conceding you the point.
Quote:
Would that be dollars or pounds?
Why does it matters, they're both worthless.
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