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  #401  
Old 02-11-2009, 10:36 AM
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Quote: All of this happens because 'people' wanted to see these young men brought up as 'normal'.

That's true, there does seem to be a desire for royalty to be "more human" or "closer to the people" but I do not think it is working very well and hasn't made the royal family any more popular than they were before. In fact, I think it has lead to their being critisised more as can clearly be seen by Harry's example. On the other hand, I think the media should be limited to what it can and can not say about people, royal, celebrity or "commoner".
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  #402  
Old 02-11-2009, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
And in this case Harry attended in an official function as prince of the UK, it was not a private conversation or joke banned on tape and leaked to the public illegally.
Poor old Harry probably didn't realise that a comment he made to the line up would be considered a public conversation, in the same way that Carol Thatcher didn't realise her private conversation would be repeated to the press.

For all we know, Harry did mean it as a joke, considering the comedian uses this very matter in his act.
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  #403  
Old 02-11-2009, 11:37 AM
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It is very possible that Prince Henry;s words were meant as a joke. However, they were not percieved as such. Given yet another controversy, Prince Charles and the Clarence House should have a serious conversation with Prince Henry. Prince Henry should realise that he does not enjoy the luxury of gaffes afforded to his grandfather.
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  #404  
Old 02-11-2009, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
For all we know, Harry did mean it as a joke, considering the comedian uses this very matter in his act.
isn't this part of the problem that poor old harry always sees his comments / actions as a joke but those on the other end / parts of society don't really think it's funny but feel offended?

prince philip might have gotten away with similar stuff for various reasons but harry's attitude as a public figure, a representant of a country, second in line to the throne at some point is not what people are asking for in the 21st century. royals are there to unify, not to provoke and it's appalling that especially a member of the young royals doesn't seem to think before speaking out, again and again. britain already has enough problems caused by ethnic / racial issues so no need for more careless actions / remarks by royals that only add to their deteriorating public image.
  #405  
Old 02-11-2009, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
isn't this part of the problem that poor old harry always sees his comments / actions as a joke but those on the other end / parts of society don't really think it's funny but feel offended?
I think the problem lies more with those who choose to see it as a racist comment. Amos plays on his ethnicity, so it is a little difficult to have sympathy when someone congratulates him for it. Would people have been less 'sensitive' if Harry had said "You don't sound as one would expect from the stereo typical person portrayed of your ethnicity, you really had me fooled when you started with the ethno speak"? Does Harry take offense when people imitate his way of speaking or if they say "Cor, you aint what I faut youd be like'?
  #406  
Old 02-11-2009, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
All of this happens because 'people' wanted to see these young men brought up as 'normal'.
That is the source of many of their problems and it is compounded by the fact that the brothers themselves hold 'normality' (whatever them mean by that) as some sort of golden standard. You have to wonder how can a monarchy survive when the royals themselves do not want to be royal. Charles, for all his pomposity, is pretty clear where he stands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
I think the problem lies........what I faut youd be like'?
Very true. Also notice that remark:
Quote:
'But it is not just Prince Harry that is at fault. The aristocratic, rich circles he moves in obviously don't have a problem with this kind of racist stereotyping.'
Of course this isn't a gross stereotyping of a whole social class...

There is a funny comment on the Daily Mail website:
Quote:
Don't make a joke in Britain someone will not like it, and you may be jailed for life.
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  #407  
Old 02-11-2009, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
I think the problem lies more with those who choose to see it as a racist comment. Amos plays on his ethnicity, so it is a little difficult to have sympathy when someone congratulates him for it. Would people have been less 'sensitive' if Harry had said "You don't sound as one would expect from the stereo typical person portrayed of your ethnicity, you really had me fooled when you started with the ethno speak"? Does Harry take offense when people imitate his way of speaking or if they say "Cor, you aint what I faut youd be like'?
to see it this way is a distortion of facts in my opinion. so people with pakistani background etc should have chosen not to see harry's p*ki comments as racist? is it their fault to be offended because of their way of interpretation? and i am not even getting as far as harry wearing a nazi-costume.

no, harry had plenty of slip-ups and the question why there is no change of attitude gets more and more worrying.
  #408  
Old 02-11-2009, 01:22 PM
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I pretty much agree with this...

Quote:
Understandably people are outraged. But the question is: why are they surprised? He’s a member of the aristocracy. They were colonising people just over 100 years ago. You think he was raised by and hangs out with people who believe in colour equality? Please.
Prince Harry insults black comedian by racial stereotyping
  #409  
Old 02-11-2009, 01:53 PM
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But as Idriel pointed out above this type of comment is itself stereotyping the whole aristocracy as being the same as Harry. People calling Harry out for doing something, then turning around and doing the same thing themselves does seem to me to defeat the whole purpose. Things would be so much easier if we just treated each person as an individual.

Harry does need to start thinking before speaking though. Philip may have gotten away with it but in this overly PC world he has no chance.
  #410  
Old 02-11-2009, 02:27 PM
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The royal family, particularly the younger generation in these more enlightened times, need to set a good example to everyone of whatever social background they come from (and that includes the aristocracy). Of course, the older generation are more likely to make such gaffs because in their younger days it was unfortunately acceptable to use someones ethnic background, for example, as a way to make a joke. But those days are long gone. I believe there has never been such a time as the one we are living in today where we need people in high office who can be truly respected and looked up to to show a good example.
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  #411  
Old 02-11-2009, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
Although I have to wonder if this comedian needed some publicity, otherwise why wait so long to make the private conversation public?
I agree with you on that Sky. Just by reading the comments I can so imagine Harry was trying to be funny,obviously it wasn't, but seriously this has to stop this is getting ridiculous.

Quote:
A spokesman for Clarence House declined to confirm if the allegation was true.
He said: "We do not comment on allegations about private conversations involving the Royals."
Oh ya CH if you think this will just go away your wrong it's the media they blow up everything. Although knowing Harry he'll prob call him and apologize.
  #412  
Old 02-11-2009, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zembla View Post
And by agreeing with this, you are stereotyping every aristocrat in the UK on what happened 100 years ago. Based on what, how many do you actually know to be able to make such a statement? Rhetorical question!

The biggest group of racists have nothing to do with the aristocracy, they tend to be lower & working class.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacknch View Post
I believe there has never been such a time as the one we are living in today where we need people in high office who can be truly respected and looked up to to show a good example
What we don't need is PC gone wrong, if the boot were on the other foot, would the media be bleating about a Black Prince making a comment about a "white man", no of course not. People don't look up to other people, many have no respect for anyone but themselves or the latest celeb!
  #413  
Old 02-11-2009, 04:07 PM
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As Sky said, what we don't need is PC gone crazy, if the boot were on the other foot, would the media be bleating about a Black Prince making a comment about a "white man", no of course not.
I have to agree, if the boot were on the other foot it would be quite a different story, or perhaps a non-story. If all these keepers of PC would just forget about the colour of people´s skin the world would be a much better place. We are born with the genes our parents passed on to us, none of us has asked for the colour of our skin it is something beyond our control, we are all human beings and I think it is ridiculous that someone stating the truth about another person´s colour is called a racist, all colours of human skin are beautiful and no one should be ashamed of their racial characteristics.
  #414  
Old 02-11-2009, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
And by agreeing with this, you are stereotyping every aristocrat in the UK on what happened 100 years ago. Based on what, how many do you actually know to be able to make such a statement? Rhetorical question!
Thank you for that!

On top of my head: Lady Gabriella dated an Asian man for years, Lady Davina Windsor is married to an Asian man, Diana dated an Asian man and an African one, both Muslim, Diana's father was a genuine friend of Mohamed Al-Fayed, the duke of Marlborough recently married an Asian woman, Charles himself is know for his work and inclination for intercultural friendships.
I can't think of any more for now but, phew, what a bunch of bigots.
Quote:
The biggest group of racists have nothing to do with the aristocracy, they tend to be lower & working class.
While it is true that those classes form the bulk of the BNP card carrying members (especially in time of economic hardship), statistics show they also are the ones who have the most interracial marriages.
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  #415  
Old 02-11-2009, 06:00 PM
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The biggest group of racists have nothing to do with the aristocracy, they tend to be lower & working class.
I don't buy this, people in a lower class are at least integrated in their schools and neighborhoods. I don't think it's stereotyping aristocracy, it's pointing out some facts. Did the schools someone like Harry went to really have a decent equality ratio? Hell no! He and his friends probably had very little integration with other children from various backgrounds.

I don't think he says these things to be malicious either, I just think he really doesn't know what is right because it's natural for him. He doesn't have a diverse group of friends to tell him what's appropriate. These publicity blow-ups are how he is clearly learning and growing.
  #416  
Old 02-11-2009, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by zembla View Post
I don't buy this, people in a lower class are at least integrated in their schools and neighborhoods.
That would be why there is so much racial tension in inner city schools, not to forget the stabbings etc. No they are not all integrated. In Leicester as an example, there are apparently streets it is not safe for a coloured person to go and there are also streets where it is not safe for a white person to drive down! Again in London there are 'no go areas' for both sides, are they anywhere near the aristocratic circles - No. Yes a proportion of whites marry coloureds but there are more incidences of real racism coming from the lower or working classes.
Quote:
I don't think it's stereotyping aristocracy, it's pointing out some facts. Did the schools someone like Harry went to really have a decent equality ratio? Hell no! He and his friends probably had very little integration with other children from various backgrounds.
Of course it is stereotyping, you are stating (unless I am mistaken) that because the aristocrats colonised the 'natives' we all see anyone of a different race as a lesser species. Perhaps, because Americans were involved in slavery of the negro and native Americans, they also see them as a lesser race - oh no, wait didn't they just vote in a coloured man? Public schools take anyone who can afford to pay, my own son has a marvelous friend from his days at school, he happens to have a different skin colour, he wasn't seen as part of an equality ratio and shouldn't be. That would be saying anyone of a different race has to have special treatment, not be treated as normal.
  #417  
Old 02-11-2009, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zembla View Post
I don't buy this, people in a lower class are at least integrated in their schools and neighborhoods. I don't think it's stereotyping aristocracy, it's pointing out some facts. Did the schools someone like Harry went to really have a decent equality ratio? Hell no! He and his friends probably had very little integration with other children from various backgrounds.
Living alongside minorities doesn't protect you from bigotry.
Most people who commit hate crimes live alongside their victims, often competing for the same jobs or housing.
I don't ever remember hearing about an upper-class hooligan engaging in Asian bashing, for example.

Of course there are other, more subtle forms of racism but racial diversity doesn't necessary means anything. Kids in state school often gather in groups or clans (in the worst cases, gangs) based on criteria such as social and economic status and/or race. Tolerance isn't innate, it's a work in progress.
I think diversity does help integration but it also creates tensions (again, especially when the economy is bad).

The issue is more complex than you make it sounds.
Quote:
I don't think he says these things to be malicious either, I just think he really doesn't know what is right because it's natural for him. He doesn't have a diverse group of friends to tell him what's appropriate. These publicity blow-ups are how he is clearly learning and growing.
Both Harry and William are/were dating girls that would not have been accepted in their social circles just a couple of decades ago.
Racism and Snobbery emanate from the same feeling of superiority. I think it's proof that they can outgrow some of the prejudices from their elders.
And Eton isn't 100% White. It isn't as diverse as Harrow but it's popular with Asian royalty and billionaires.
With the Army you'll see that he has come in contact with people from all walk of life in conditions that favours bounding more than in normal social situations.
It's not like he lives in a Caucasian bubble or a 50s time wrap.

EDITED TO ADD: our post crossed each other but I agree wholeheartedly with you Skydragon.
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  #418  
Old 02-11-2009, 07:11 PM
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Of course it is stereotyping, you are stating (unless I am mistaken) that because the aristocrats colonised the 'natives' we all see anyone of a different race as a lesser species.
I didn't say anything about colonizing, that was posted in the article I linked. All I'm saying is that he did not grow up in a diversified environment and it's only natural for him to slip up publicly like this. He clearly has no friends of color to set him straight and tell him like it is. It's just not surprising to me anymore when he does things like this because the ignorance is almost expected at this point. He'll learn from his mistakes, hopefully.
  #419  
Old 02-11-2009, 07:18 PM
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Well, even if it was just a slip of the tongue and not meant as a racist remark we have a sayng in Dutch: a donkey doesn't hurt his foot on the same stone twice'. Considering the prince was recently in the news for making a comment that was considered racist by many, you would expect that any person with sufficient brain capacity would be able to avoid such remarks at least for a few months.
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  #420  
Old 02-11-2009, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by zembla View Post
He clearly has no friends of color to set him straight and tell him like it is.
Do you have any evidence to back that claim up?
I personally remember clearly reports and pictures of him being particularly cosy with the Gurkhas that were guarding him in Afghanistan.
Then there was that Paki row. In the video and in his statement he described his fellow soldier as a friend. Just how close buddy they are/were is unclear especially since they now live in different countries but the point is he did train and serve alongside him.
Harry did call him after the video became public, which was an opportunity for Khan to 'tell him like it is', as you say, if needed. All the reports I have read say that Khan did tell him he wasn't offended.
Then there was the report about the Indian polo friend nicknamed Sooty (I am sure you had no idea the guy was within Harry's social circle until a couple of weeks ago).

Imo you're assumption that he doesn't have any non-Caucasian friend is just based on the fact that you don't really know who he meets socially or who are the people he works with.

Edited to add: Harry's patrol in Afghanistan: http://www.news.com.au/common/imaged...5917214,00.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
Well, even if it was just a slip of the tongue and not meant as a racist remark we have a sayng in Dutch: a donkey doesn't hurt his foot on the same stone twice'. Considering the prince was recently in the news for making a comment that was considered racist by many, you would expect that any person with sufficient brain capacity would be able to avoid such remarks at least for a few months.
The army video was 3 years ago and was leaked last month. The remark to the comic was 3 months ago.

EDIT: According to the Daily Mirror Harry is being sent on an Army equality course. The article won't be online until later but it's their cover story.

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