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  #161  
Old 02-03-2015, 10:16 AM
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Emotional maturity is different for all children but Royal children of this generation seem to be handling themselves rather well. Josephine and Vincent are seen being normal small children while still shaking hands and having a plenty of photo ops, The youngest Dutch girl can sit through engagements at 7 and we know she lives pretty normally...Would you say they are being deprived of something? it does not have to be all or nothing for George as other people have noted. Either extreme is not healthy but balance is .Children are pretty strong and are like sponges that young so it will all become second hat if they start him now.
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  #162  
Old 02-03-2015, 10:26 AM
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So far George is on the right track at 17 months. I've seen plenty of video and photos.
Whatever W&K decide as parents it will be in keeping with the traditions of the BRF. They won't look to Victoria and Daniel or any other royal couple.

The media pressure and expectations are on a different level in Britain. George needs as much a normal childhood as possible or he won't survive the maelstrom when he is older.
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  #163  
Old 02-03-2015, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by hernameispekka View Post
But you learn behavior by watching much, much better when you are young. You will then have it natural and imprinted instead of having to "manually" learn it.

It might not be to his benefit, but not to his harm either. And I think it is a benefit for the monarchy as a whole. The people need to grow up with him, that gives him more leeway when he gets older and does mistakes. If he just shows up as a teen and then start making mistakes (he will, we all do) there will be no sympathy for him. But if the people is there when he grows up they will feel a kind of mothers instinct over him. I think that is beneficial to the institution of monarchy.
George needs to learn how to be George before he learns to be a prince. Brains are still developing in adolescence, plenty of time for imprinting.

If the public had motherly instincts they would want his childhood protected. They would never click on any article that had his pap photos. So that excuse doesn't fly.

His cute pictures might give the monarchy a fleeting p.r. boost; but an emotionally healthy, well adjusted adult George will give the monarchy a bigger long-term boost. It's not his job to boost g-grandma Elizabeth's, grandpa Charles', and daddy's q rating. He's not their tool.
  #164  
Old 02-03-2015, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
Query whether even the Duchess of Cambridge appears for the Trooping and the Garter this year.
I think she would be back making appearances by that time.

I think people make the mistake in thinking a little appearance of Prince George at a kid friendly event means his childhood and privacy would be ruined. There's really nothing wrong with taking George to the zoo or another kid friendly for him to be seen. They struck the right balance when they were in Australia and New Zealand. He wasn't overexposed, but people got to see him a bit. They could plan out a very similar event in the UK.
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  #165  
Old 02-03-2015, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by miss whirley View Post
George needs to learn how to be George before he learns to be a prince. Brains are still developing in adolescence, plenty of time for imprinting.

If the public had motherly instincts they would want his childhood protected. They would never click on any article that had his pap photos. So that excuse doesn't fly.

His cute pictures might give the monarchy a fleeting p.r. boost; but an emotionally healthy, well adjusted adult George will give the monarchy a bigger long-term boost. It's not his job to boost g-grandma Elizabeth's, grandpa Charles', and daddy's q rating. He's not their tool.
That's where we differ. I think prince should be a part of George from the beginning. William and Harry were taght otherwise and they seem to struggle a lot with wanting to be them and get that to fit with being a prince. If you look at prince CP of Sweden he says that he feels like a prince, because that is what he is and he is privileged. When William and Harry get that question they say things like "I don't think about that", "We don't think about that part of our life" etc. I think it might be easier to be a prince when it is a part of your identity rather than a job. The Queen IS the monarch, William might work as the monarch later. I think the first version might work better.

My mothery instincts want him to get used to it so please don't try to tell me why I say certain things.

I agree that him being stable is the most important. But being sheltered isn't always synonymous with being stable. Look at those religious (extremist), home schooled children. I don't think they might be the most stable in the long run. I think we both want what's best for George, so please don't say that we don't. We just have different thoughts on what that might be.
  #166  
Old 02-03-2015, 10:57 AM
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George isn't being sheltered. We've seen more of him than we did William at a similar age. If W&K wanted George to live a sheltered life they wouldn't have taken him to Mustique twice and Australia and New Zealand.

Kate has been photographed with George in London parks. They take George to the petting zoo in Bucklebury. He has play dates and even visited Santa at the Winter wonderland

Just what a toddler should be doing, royal or not
  #167  
Old 02-03-2015, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
George isn't being sheltered. We've seen more of him than we did William at a similar age. If W&K wanted George to live a sheltered life they wouldn't have taken him to Mustique twice and Australia and New Zealand.

Kate has been photographed with George in London parks. They take George to the petting zoo in Bucklebury. He has play dates and even visited Santa at the Winter wonderland

Just what a toddler should be doing, royal or not
I did not say he was. I think they are keeping a nice balance. But miss whirley seems to think that he shouldn't be seen until 11 years old (or maybe older) and that was the kind of sheltering I was against.
  #168  
Old 02-03-2015, 11:11 AM
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Look at the childhoods of the Queen, Charles and William. The Queen was raised behind palace walls and never really associated with regular people. Charles got out of the palace for his education but he was still called Sir by his teachers and such. William was in school with other kids since nursery school and was known to his friends by his name. He was exposed to charity work and he learned that he can use his position to help others but he doesn't demand to be treated like a "Prince" but as a normal person. He wasn't in his RAF helicopter demanding Royal salutes. He was just Will/Fl Lt Wales

The future of the monarchy is moving from isolation to inclusion.


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  #169  
Old 02-03-2015, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by hernameispekka View Post
That's where we differ. I think prince should be a part of George from the beginning. William and Harry were taght otherwise and they seem to struggle a lot with wanting to be them and get that to fit with being a prince. If you look at prince CP of Sweden he says that he feels like a prince, because that is what he is and he is privileged. When William and Harry get that question they say things like "I don't think about that", "We don't think about that part of our life" etc. I think it might be easier to be a prince when it is a part of your identity rather than a job. The Queen IS the monarch, William might work as the monarch later. I think the first version might work better.

My mothery instincts want him to get used to it so please don't try to tell me why I say certain things.

I agree that him being stable is the most important. But being sheltered isn't always synonymous with being stable. Look at those religious (extremist), home schooled children. I don't think they might be the most stable in the long run. I think we both want what's best for George, so please don't say that we don't. We just have different thoughts on what that might be.
I agree that William and Harry aren't well adjusted, that they are emotionally stunted in different ways. I blame their parents for over exposing them. I don't want George to befall the same fate. Queen Elizabeth seems to have a good head on her shoulders. As a child she was protected. She could move amongst the crowds outside the palace and no one recognized her. Wouldn't it be wonderful if 8 year old George could experience that.

I stand be my motherly instincts comment. I don't know how any parent could ever click on an article that had pap photos of children. I'm not a parent, and even I can't bring myself to click. The exploitation of children will only stop once the public gets a moral compass.

Your idea that George's identity as a person should be completely intertwined with his identity as a royal is a little scary. George might not become King for another 60 years, by then there might not be a monarchy. Should George just jump off a bridge then, his identity and reason for being would be gone. That lack of distinction would make him an extremist, the thing you warned against, ironically.
  #170  
Old 02-03-2015, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by miss whirley View Post
I agree that William and Harry aren't well adjusted, that they are emotionally stunted in different ways. I blame their parents for over exposing them. I don't want George to befall the same fate. Queen Elizabeth seems to have a good head on her shoulders. As a child she was protected. She could move amongst the crowds outside the palace and no one recognized her. Wouldn't it be wonderful if 8 year old George could experience that.

I stand be my motherly instincts comment. I don't know how any parent could ever click on an article that had pap photos of children. I'm not a parent, and even I can't bring myself to click. The exploitation of children will only stop once the public gets a moral compass.

Your idea that George's identity as a person should be completely intertwined with his identity as a royal is a little scary. George might not become King for another 60 years, by then there might not be a monarchy. Should George just jump off a bridge then, his identity and reason for being would be gone. That lack of distinction would make him an extremist, the thing you warned against, ironically.
Hmm, you think overexposure is what did them in? Not a broken home, parents fighting (both in private and in the media), divorce and early death of their mother had more to do with it?

Most of us don't want the paparazzi photos. What it being discussed is his (from his parents approved) exposure at events and photographs. Not if it's ok to stalk a kid and take photos of him!

No, not completely intertwined. He needs perspective (which, btw he will get from meeting people, not being cooped up at home). But I don't think it's healthy having such a big part of your life being fully separate as we see in Harry. He says he has 3 personas. Private, army and prince. Ofc we all have a little of it but it works best if those parts don't compete with each other and is a natural part. Everything must be with moderation. Taking away something fully might be as bad as being exposed to much.
  #171  
Old 02-03-2015, 11:33 AM
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I don't know if the Queen moved outside the palace freely as a little girl but I am thinking she did not. Anyways in the 1930s the technology was not like it was today. You only had radio, newsreels and newspapers that deferred to the Royal family even ignoring the King Edward VIII and Mrs Simpsons while it was in foreign papers.

Now we have instant access with social media and cameras in phones. Photographers in a boat with a super long lens to take a picture of a toddler walking with his mommy and nanny on vacation that is then spread across the world.


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  #172  
Old 02-03-2015, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hernameispekka View Post
Hmm, you think overexposure is what did them in? Not a broken home, parents fighting (both in private and in the media), divorce and early death of their mother had more to do with it?

Most of us don't want the paparazzi photos. What it being discussed is his (from his parents approved) exposure at events and photographs. Not if it's ok to stalk a kid and take photos of him!

No, not completely intertwined. He needs perspective (which, btw he will get from meeting people, not being cooped up at home). But I don't think it's healthy having such a big part of your life being fully separate as we see in Harry. He says he has 3 personas. Private, army and prince. Ofc we all have a little of it but it works best if those parts don't compete with each other and is a natural part. Everything must be with moderation. Taking away something fully might be as bad as being exposed to much.
Charles and Diana didn't just overexpose their children, they overexposed themselves too. It was that four-headed monster that made their children hate the media. Do you think that Diana would have been chased to her death by paps, if there wasn't a payoff from the tabloids looking for the next titillating chapter in Diana's life? A book that she not only opened to the public, but one she read to them. It was all connected.

I was just using paparazzi photos as example to disprove your assertion that the public has the capability for motherly instincts. They do not. They have dehumanized the royals to the extent that they don't care about the needs of the royals. They care about their own needs and they want access at whatever cost.

Harry has 3 personas because he is overcorrecting. He wasn't given a real childhood, he was a media puppet, a photo-op. He likely feels chockholded by his title and how it has defined him since before he can remember. So he taking back the real "Harry" by force. It's sad. I think he would want better for his nephew. I want better for George too.
  #173  
Old 02-03-2015, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by miss whirley View Post
Charles and Diana didn't just overexpose their children, they overexposed themselves too. It was that four-headed monster that made their children hate the media. Do you think that Diana would have been chased to her death by paps, if there wasn't a payoff from the tabloids looking for the next titillating chapter in Diana's life? A book that she not only opened to the public, but one she read to them. It was all connected.

I was just using paparazzi photos as example to disprove your assertion that the public has the capability for motherly instincts. They do not. They have dehumanized the royals to the extent that they don't care about the needs of the royals. They care about their own needs and they want access at whatever cost.

Harry has 3 personas because he is overcorrecting. He wasn't given a real childhood, he was a media puppet, a photo-op. He likely feels chockholded by his title and how it has defined him since before he can remember. So he taking back the real "Harry" by force. It's sad. I think he would want better for his nephew. I want better for George too.
If you look at someone like Estelle, she is having a very similar childhood as Victoria (maybe more private though since her mother isn't the queen). That family seems really acclimatized. I think the drama in the background vs having a stable family weighs much heavier on how you handle things than if it happened to be photographed. We are not saying we want George on a walkabout.

An example I think would be good is inviting children from charities once a year to decorate the christmas tree together with George (and siblings) with both parents and nanny there. And not a photo op for every photographer. Just one photographer or maybe two. That would in no way be intrusive and he would have a fun day meeting kids from other circumstances. To me, let's say your local newspaper came to take pictures at your soccer-practice. It isn't that intrusive unless they want you to pose. If you are just playing as normal, it doesn't have an effect on the kid. I think no-one here want the William pushed towards photographers repeated. But there is a middle ground, not all or nothing.
  #174  
Old 02-03-2015, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by hernameispekka View Post
If you look at someone like Estelle, she is having a very similar childhood as Victoria (maybe more private though since her mother isn't the queen). That family seems really acclimatized. I think the drama in the background vs having a stable family weighs much heavier on how you handle things than if it happened to be photographed. We are not saying we want George on a walkabout.

An example I think would be good is inviting children from charities once a year to decorate the christmas tree together with George (and siblings) with both parents and nanny there. And not a photo op for every photographer. Just one photographer or maybe two. That would in no way be intrusive and he would have a fun day meeting kids from other circumstances. To me, let's say your local newspaper came to take pictures at your soccer-practice. It isn't that intrusive unless they want you to pose. If you are just playing as normal, it doesn't have an effect on the kid. I think no-one here want the William pushed towards photographers repeated. But there is a middle ground, not all or nothing.
A middle ground would be nice, but it doesn't exist for The BRF. Estelle will never have to deal with the level of harassment that George does. Remember when Madeline moved to London, she quickly ran home screaming realizing it was much worse than she had ever experienced. They treat their own royals even worse.

If William and Catherine dangle George and let the media/public get a taste, the appetite will become insatiable. The media will suck his youth like a vampire. Look at the media obsession with poor Catherine and this is after she has made herself as boring as possible. Imagine if she actively engaged them, it would be terrifying.

In many ways, it is all or nothing. William needs to keep that firm line no matter how much he is badgered(Hello, Rebecca English!). Leave George as just an obscure, young boy until he is old enough to handle the consequences of being a commodity. Show him the compassion that his father and uncle didn't receive.
  #175  
Old 02-03-2015, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by miss whirley View Post
A middle ground would be nice, but it doesn't exist for The BRF. Estelle will never have to deal with the level of harassment that George does. Remember when Madeline moved to London, she quickly ran home screaming realizing it was much worse than she had ever experienced. They treat their own royals even worse.

If William and Catherine dangle George and let the media/public get a taste, the appetite will become insatiable. The media will suck his youth like a vampire. Look at the media obsession with poor Catherine and this is after she has made herself as boring as possible. Imagine if she actively engaged them, it would be terrifying.

In many ways, it is all or nothing. William needs to keep that firm line no matter how much he is badgered(Hello, Rebecca English!). Leave George as just an obscure, young boy until he is old enough to handle the consequences of being a commodity. Show him the compassion that his father and uncle didn't receive.
I have to say, you sound more traumatized on their behalf than I think they are....

I agree that Estelle won't have to deal with it as much. But if it is as bad as you say small traces would be seen in that family as well.

I on the other hand think that if they have semi-regular sightings of George the money value of paparazzi pics will decrease. That is the same reason many celebrities post/sell pictures of their newborns. To lower the value (and therefore the following paparazzi) of the first picture. Like they did with George before Christmas. Very non-intrusive on George and a showing of good faith to the public.

And also, if it was so horrible for Madeleine to be in London, why are they contemplating moving there again? Might she have had another reason for moving?

I really don't think it would be in Georges best interest to be hidden away. What are your thoughts on his education? Do you think he should go to a normal school like William or be home schooled like the Queen?
  #176  
Old 02-03-2015, 01:07 PM
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Look what happen in Australia, in the middle of plenty of George access, they were still spied upon in the grounds of the GG house.

Every minute of his life doesn't have to be for public consumption. If William takes a 7 year old George to Centerpointe or Kate takes him to a EACH hospice, a camera doesn't have to be there.


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  #177  
Old 02-03-2015, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
Look what happen in Australia, in the middle of plenty of George access, they were still spied upon in the grounds of the GG house.

Every minute of his life doesn't have to be for public consumption. If William takes a 7 year old George to Centerpointe or Kate takes him to a EACH hospice, a camera doesn't have to be there.


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I agree and it is sad. But I don't think hiding him would make it any better. Showing him a little might trigger the want for more. But not showing him at all I think would be really, physically dangerous. I do not want to think to what lengths the paparazzi would go to be the ones that get's a picture of him....
  #178  
Old 02-03-2015, 01:19 PM
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I think the problem with many of those child celebrities isn’t so much the publicity but more all of the people around them who give these children exactly what they want. There are plenty of child stars whose parents treated them as children and not as breadwinner who are perfectly fine.

I think if you want to see an example of how it could be done you should look at the Dutch and the Danish royal families. With them you see the children so every no and then in a more informal capacity in a fun setting. I don’t think I’d let George do this now, but when he’s 4 yrs old??? Why not. When children get to old they also start to think more about what goes on round them. Kind of the same as when 4 yr old learn skiing. They don’t think about the danger, it’s just fun and and by the time they would start thinking about danger they already know what to do. That of course doesn’t mean you need to give him some skies and push him down the mountain.
Letting George be present at a few informal fun events or gatherings won’t scar him for live and it might even make things easier.
  #179  
Old 02-03-2015, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Elenath View Post
I think the problem with many of those child celebrities isn’t so much the publicity but more all of the people around them who give these children exactly what they want. There are plenty of child stars whose parents treated them as children and not as breadwinner who are perfectly fine.

I think if you want to see an example of how it could be done you should look at the Dutch and the Danish royal families. With them you see the children so every no and then in a more informal capacity in a fun setting. I don’t think I’d let George do this now, but when he’s 4 yrs old??? Why not. When children get to old they also start to think more about what goes on round them. Kind of the same as when 4 yr old learn skiing. They don’t think about the danger, it’s just fun and and by the time they would start thinking about danger they already know what to do. That of course doesn’t mean you need to give him some skies and push him down the mountain.
Letting George be present at a few informal fun events or gatherings won’t scar him for live and it might even make things easier.
Very well explained and good points! I agree fully!!
  #180  
Old 02-03-2015, 01:26 PM
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I think they could arrange a similar engagement like on their tour down under for George to attend. Outside of the official photos, we really don't see the Cambridge's out and about as a family. The Father's Day polo outing was a treat, but we really don't see much of them family wise.

I think it would be brilliant if the Charles & Camilla and Cambridge's did a joint summer tour of Wales. During the tour, they could arrange a kid friendly family event for George to attend and later they could do a photo shoot as a big family.
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