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  #861  
Old 08-15-2015, 06:04 PM
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This may be the whole problem,- The Laws of every country are not adequate enough to protect royals. Or anyone else for that matter.

Remember when Paula Yates's daughter was deliberately knocked over by a Pap to make her cry so they could get a shot of a screaming toddler and an angry Paula. Michael Hutchince didn't hesitate and clobbered the Pap. Then Michael went to caught for assaulting the Pap. How dumb is that. The child was deliberately made to cry by a Pap. Assaulted in a kind of way.
It's nuts and dangerous what the Paps get up to.
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  #862  
Old 08-15-2015, 06:17 PM
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I wonder why they don't take the paps to court.. Probably because the paps are very expendable and usually poorer people from other countries... Because this is some examples that the Crown Prosecutors website lists as stalking. (Stalking and Harassment: Legal Guidance: Crown Prosecution Service) I've highlighted the ones I think could fit on the paps.

(a) following a person, (Obviously, following cars etc)
(b) contacting, or attempting to contact, a person by any means,
(c) publishing any statement or other material relating or purporting to relate to a person, or purporting to originate from a person,
(d) monitoring the use by a person of the internet, email or any other form of electronic communication,
(e) loitering in any place (whether public or private),(Hanging around the houses and parks)
(f) interfering with any property in the possession of a person,
(g) watching or spying on a person.
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  #863  
Old 08-15-2015, 07:00 PM
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Re, stalking - I've seen that question posited elsewhere and it's a good one - can the press be accused of stalking? I don't know the answer. In the US at least, I believe that stalking is generally trying to make contact for the purpose of intimidation and harassment. Arguably, I doubt those paps are following George around to intimidate and harass him, they might not give a damn about him other than to make some quick cash, although the effect on George or at least his parents may be the same. Again, just playing devil's advocate - there is likely a reason why the Cambridge's are not seeking criminal charges against the paps following him. Maybe royals don't sue all that often because they fear backlash from the press in general, which to a large extent they need.

I don't know the answer. Do we have any British lawyers on this site?
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  #864  
Old 08-15-2015, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GracieGiraffe View Post
Re, stalking - I've seen that question posited elsewhere and it's a good one - can the press be accused of stalking? I don't know the answer. In the US at least, I believe that stalking is generally trying to make contact for the purpose of intimidation and harassment. Arguably, I doubt those paps are following George around to intimidate and harass him, they might not give a damn about him other than to make some quick cash, although the effect on George or at least his parents may be the same. Again, just playing devil's advocate - there is likely a reason why the Cambridge's are not seeking criminal charges against the paps following him. Maybe royals don't sue all that often because they fear backlash from the press in general, which to a large extent they need.

I don't know the answer. Do we have any British lawyers on this site?
I think it would be potentially very effective for the royals and their legal team to differentiate between regular journalists and paparazzi, which is what they seem to be starting to do now. They should develop a cordial and productive working relationship with the former, (while maintaining clear boundaries), and aggressively fight the intrusions of the latter. I don't see it as a losing battle so much as one which will never be entirely over. If William and Kate throw up their hands and do nothing then the situation deteriorates rapidly.. we've seen that it took only two years with George for things to get to the point where photographers are hiding in cars and using other children as bait. Both the paparazzi and elements of the traditional press have shown time and time again that they will not self regulate.

I also believe the degree to which the royals need the press is often overstated. The press won't stop covering the Cambridge family under any circumstances. The coverage may become less positive but, firstly, that's going to happen anyway, as they all get older and less photogenic, and secondly, you don't have to look very far to find members of the royal family who have survived and thrived despite vicious and sustained negative media coverage. If Charles can survive the 90s then William and Catherine can survive some editors getting into a snit.
  #865  
Old 08-15-2015, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by camelot23ca View Post
I think it would be potentially very effective for the royals and their legal team to differentiate between regular journalists and paparazzi, which is what they seem to be starting to do now. They should develop a cordial and productive working relationship with the former, (while maintaining clear boundaries), and aggressively fight the intrusions of the latter. I don't see it as a losing battle so much as one which will never be entirely over. If William and Kate throw up their hands and do nothing then the situation deteriorates rapidly.. we've seen that it took only two years with George for things to get to the point where photographers are hiding in cars and using other children as bait. Both the paparazzi and elements of the traditional press have shown time and time again that they will not self regulate.

I also believe the degree to which the royals need the press is often overstated. The press won't stop covering the Cambridge family under any circumstances. The coverage may become less positive but, firstly, that's going to happen anyway, as they all get older and less photogenic, and secondly, you don't have to look very far to find members of the royal family who have survived and thrived despite vicious and sustained negative media coverage. If Charles can survive the 90s then William and Catherine can survive some editors getting into a snit.
I agree Will and Kate need to take what legal action they can at this point, as I think that the safety of their children is in question now, and the answer is not keeping George behind a wall. Do I think they can take care of this issue once and for all? No, I think it will be an ongoing battle of keeping their fingers in the dykes. Do I think this fair? No. What's going to happen and what can they do within the bounds of British law, and any other law for that matter? I don't know, but I'm sure they've sought the advice of experts on the subject.
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  #866  
Old 08-15-2015, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
When have they ever staged a pap stroll? William and Harry play polo to raise funds for charity. There will be regular non paparazzi there and they will posed for pictures at the awards presentation. So when they brought George to polo they know he is getting photographed.
Oh, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have heard the last of it had they not been behind or aware of e.g. the ones of Carole and George because those are highly intrusive as neither William nor Catherine are in them. But I also know that that's a very unpopular thing to say And again, I'm not arguing that they shouldn't protect their children – I think we can all agree that the method some of these photographers use are harrowing – merely that they can't draw a line (a line that's already a bit iffy as they want to be treated like "normal" people when they, in fact, are not) only to repeatedly cross it when it's convenient with good press.
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  #867  
Old 08-15-2015, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GracieGiraffe View Post
I agree Will and Kate need to take what legal action they can at this point, as I think that the safety of their children is in question now, and the answer is not keeping George behind a wall. Do I think they can take care of this issue once and for all? No, I think it will be an ongoing battle of keeping their fingers in the dykes. Do I think this fair? No. What's going to happen and what can they do within the bounds of British law, and any other law for that matter? I don't know, but I'm sure they've sought the advice of experts on the subject.
It's complicated, isn't it. There are lots of issues in play and it's not at all fair.

I reckon William and Kate should seek to have criminal charges brought against anyone who is breaking the law by doing what they are doing in an effort to photograph their children. I don't advocate they take civil action against them for damages, but if the photographers are breaking the law then they should be prosecuted.

But if the people taking the photographs are not breaking the law then I think William and Kate should be a bit careful. There is naturally an interest in George, particularly, as he is a future king and a cute and photogenic kid. Lots of people all around the world crave photographs of him because of who he is and will buy any magazine that has snaps of him doing cutesy things like he was doing at that barnyard event. And we can't be sure that the barnyard event photos were taken by a pap anyway, and that's another issue. Who is taking the photos and what degree of acquiescence is involved on an event by event basis? Inconsistency in response is going to create problems because if photographers aren't sure then they will keep having a go.

Yes, someone could be aiming a gun at him and not a camera, but they can do that anyway. It's not the pesky pap with a telephoto lens that they really have to worry about, its the crazy sniper who is out to kill the child, and they are probably not going to be the same person. Making laws about photographers is not going to prevent snipers from shooting him. He can be shot from a distance from a car or building or public land where people who are not potential murderers have a perfectly legal right to be.

William and Kate and their children are not "normal" people and they can't expect to live "normal" lives and to out and about in public like "normal" families, and yet at the same time expect people to not take an abnormal interest in them. I think William needs to get over this "normal life" thing. He can't have it. He and his family will never be "normal".

The excessive and potentially invasive and dangerous level of interest in him and his family is part of the price he pays for being who he is and he really does just have to accept that and modify his family's activities accordingly, whether he likes it or not. The level of interest is not going to change unless he really, really cheeses the public off and I don't think he wants to do that.

The particular level of interest in William and his children is there in large part because of who his mother was. That's not his fault, but it's a fact of life he has to face. His present problems have a lot to do with the huge level of interest in Diana, and the paparazzi level of interest in her. That level of interest has flowed down to her son and her son's son. And it's not going to go away.

What can he do about it? Be careful, and, yes, probably keep his child/children away from public places more than he would like.

Life in a goldfish bowl in no fun at all, and I don't envy them, but I don't really see what they can do about it, either. They are caught in a most unenviable situation that is not of their own making. What they do have control over though is the way they respond to it. They need to respond in a way that engenders a sympathetic and protective response and causes people to feel goodwill and respect towards them, not appear whiny and petulant or, worse, arrogant and entitled, which William is capable of doing without trying very hard at all.

But the bottom line is - as it was with Diana - that the photographers are only doing what they do because lots and lots of people buy the magazines and they can get paid lots of money for their photographs.
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  #868  
Old 08-15-2015, 11:11 PM
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Prince George and Princess Charlotte, General News Part 1: May 2015

Only a few short weeks ago i clearly remember when I asked for a separate thread for those kinds of pictures of the Cambridge Children, so those who wanted to see pictures of children being stalked just for a picture could and those of us who feel stalking any child for whatsoever disgusting reason was not okay could come into this thread w/out seeing them, The following to the best of my recollection is what ended up happening...

"We don't have different threads for the other Royal Children so why for these two." Completely missing the point there is Worldwide Interest in George and Charlotte. Not so much the other Royal Children.

"Oh well...That's the price of Fame." How quickly some have forgotten the price William has already paid and all for the price of a stupid picture.

Then there was the incident w/that one stalker who had somehow managed to get his hands on what was George's schedule for his walks w/Maria in Kensington Gardens. IIRC some just brushed that off as one of those things that can happen sometimes, instead of seeing it for the Security screwup it was.

I was blowing the whole thing out of proportion. After all, they're only pictures, so what's the harm?

Then there were those thought my concerns were funny and would post where they were "asking a question about posting one of these photos, but wanted to make sure it would be okay because they didn't want to upset anyone after all... "

So....Not funny anymore is it?


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  #869  
Old 08-15-2015, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
William and Kate and their children are not "normal" people and they can't expect to live "normal" lives and to out and about in public like "normal" families, and yet at the same time expect people to not take an abnormal interest in them. I think William needs to get over this "normal life" thing. He can't have it. He and his family will never be "normal".
William can renounce his position. He can give up the title, the money, the privilege. Move to a new country and then they can live a normal life. I really doubt Kate nor himself would be able to survive on their own. He may not have asked for this, but this is the hand he was dealt. When I go out in public and a picture is take, I cant complain or file a lawsuit because I am in public. Why should they be different? A sniper can be watching anyone anywhere. Most people on this board probably don't watch the USA news, but people here are killed just for going to church or a movie. Happens here almost every other week. No one is ever 'safe'.
  #870  
Old 08-16-2015, 12:06 AM
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Prince George and Princess Charlotte, General News Part 1: May 2015

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiggersk8 View Post
Only a few short weeks ago i clearly remember when I asked for a separate thread for those kinds of pictures of the Cambridge Children, so those who wanted to see pictures of children being stalked just for a picture could and those of us who feel stalking any child for whatsoever disgusting reason was okay could come into this thread w/out seeing them, The following to the best of my recollection is what ended up happening...

"We don't have different threads for the other Royal Children so why for these two." Completely missing the point there is Worldwide Interest in George and Charlotte. Not so much the other Royal Children.

"Oh well...That's the price of Fame." How quickly some have forgotten the price William has already paid and all for the price of a stupid picture.

Then there was the incident w/that one stalker who had somehow managed to get his hands on what was George's schedule for his walks w/Maria in Kensington Gardens. IIRC some just brushed that off as one of those things that can happen sometimes, instead of seeing it for the Security screwup it was.

I was blowing the whole thing out of proportion. After all, they're only pictures, so what's the harm?

Then there were those thought my concerns were funny and would post where they were "asking a question about posting one of these photos, but wanted to make sure it would be okay because they didn't want to upset anyone after all... "

So....Not funny anymore is it?


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Honestly, I think once the details of how the pictures were obtained surfaced, it became evident that the situation was more serious than any of us realized. The sad part is, that nothing major will be done until something awful happens. It's sick that because of money, children under three years of age are basically sacrificial lambs. I sincerely hope that there won't be another tragedy, where we have to watch a child's funeral to drive the point home. I feel awful for looking at the pictures now. Gah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bethaliz6894 View Post
William can renounce his position. He can give up the title, the money, the privilege. Move to a new country and then they can live a normal life. I really doubt Kate nor himself would be able to survive on their own. He may not have asked for this, but this is the hand he was dealt. When I go out in public and a picture is take, I cant complain or file a lawsuit because I am in public. Why should they be different? A sniper can be watching anyone anywhere. Most people on this board probably don't watch the USA news, but people here are killed just for going to church or a movie. Happens here almost every other week. No one is ever 'safe'.
Why do you assume that they couldn't manage on their own? They come from wealthy families, and William has enough money from his mother to last a lifetime. They could certainly live the life that they do as private citizens, just without all the ceremony. However, I don't think any parent would want his/her child stalked in a fashion of a sick pedophile, just to capture the most prized snap. In schools parents have to sign release forms for children to be photographed, so if the paps want a picture that bad, let them obtain a consent form from George, and Charlotte's parents (doubt that the consent will be given, but for a pap shot, it shouldn't be). Now, if you, or I are photographed in public, that insignificant, because we're not famous, and our pictures are not worth a couple of million dollars/pounds, while George, and Charlotte are. I don't think William, and Catherine would care if their kids were photographed incidentally, by let's say a fellow parent who was trying to get his/her child climbing on the jungle gym, while George was climbing on the other side. The issue is that people are shameless, and will do anything for an extra buck. The paps have already demonstrated a security concern with the tactics they're using to get these blasted pictures. William and Catherine would be pretty awful parents if they didn't see that as a serious safety issue. Today, it's a pap, tomorrow it's a terrorist, or a sicko, intending to do some serious damage.



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  #871  
Old 08-16-2015, 12:24 AM
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I've done some googling, including some articles in The Guardian. From the commentary, it does not appear to be against the law to take photos of George and Charlotte, or any person of child for that matter, in Britain. But I, and the commentary, could be wrong.
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  #872  
Old 08-16-2015, 12:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GracieGiraffe View Post
I've done some googling, including some articles in The Guardian. From the commentary, it does not appear to be against the law to take photos of George and Charlotte, or any person of child for that matter, in Britain. But I, and the commentary, could be wrong.
If it was, they would have just gone to the court.
  #873  
Old 08-16-2015, 02:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bethaliz6894 View Post
William can renounce his position. He can give up the title, the money, the privilege. Move to a new country and then they can live a normal life. I really doubt Kate nor himself would be able to survive on their own. He may not have asked for this, but this is the hand he was dealt. When I go out in public and a picture is take, I cant complain or file a lawsuit because I am in public. Why should they be different? A sniper can be watching anyone anywhere. Most people on this board probably don't watch the USA news, but people here are killed just for going to church or a movie. Happens here almost every other week. No one is ever 'safe'.
For William to renounce his position he would have to apply to the parliament of the 16 different realms to pass the legislation to remove him from the line of succession.

That wouldn't save George and Charlotte from their current positions - in fact it would make them worse - as they would have to move up one position in the line of succession. They can't be removed at the request of their parents - only when they turn 18 respectively.

The other way he could go would be to convert to Roman Catholicism but again that only takes him out but not George or Charlotte who again can't be removed because William has taken himself out of the line.
  #874  
Old 08-16-2015, 05:54 AM
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The bottom line to myself is that this is a toddler and a baby. No matter who their parents are, a toddler and a baby.
  #875  
Old 08-16-2015, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
For William to renounce his position he would have to apply to the parliament of the 16 different realms to pass the legislation to remove him from the line of succession.

That wouldn't save George and Charlotte from their current positions - in fact it would make them worse - as they would have to move up one position in the line of succession. They can't be removed at the request of their parents - only when they turn 18 respectively.

The other way he could go would be to convert to Roman Catholicism but again that only takes him out but not George or Charlotte who again can't be removed because William has taken himself out of the line.
And one could argue that even if he did step out of the line, and get approvals, that would only heighter the interest/intrusions on the children.
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  #876  
Old 08-16-2015, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by AdmirerUS View Post
And one could argue that even if he did step out of the line, and get approvals, that would only heighter the interest/intrusions on the children.
If Will were able to take himself and his children out of the line, it would only place the burden on Harry and his kids, who whoever highest up has children. So it's no solution overall, even if it were possible.
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  #877  
Old 08-16-2015, 11:29 AM
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Could William and Kate not strike up some sort of deal with the press similar to Crown Princess Victoria in Sweden? In return for routinely released snaps of Estelle they leave them alone in their private time.
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  #878  
Old 08-16-2015, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by GracieGiraffe View Post
I agree Will and Kate need to take what legal action they can at this point, as I think that the safety of their children is in question now, and the answer is not keeping George behind a wall. Do I think they can take care of this issue once and for all? No, I think it will be an ongoing battle of keeping their fingers in the dykes. Do I think this fair? No. What's going to happen and what can they do within the bounds of British law, and any other law for that matter? I don't know, but I'm sure they've sought the advice of experts on the subject.

Well, there's not much point in taking legal action.

Celebrities have tried suing the tabloids for years; even when they win, they typically don't get much in damages.
The tabloids cheerfully pay up, and then it's business as usual.

The know their profits will more than offset any legal damages.
  #879  
Old 08-16-2015, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by crm2317 View Post
Could William and Kate not strike up some sort of deal with the press similar to Crown Princess Victoria in Sweden? In return for routinely released snaps of Estelle they leave them alone in their private time.

Exactly what I said in my first post. But because the BRF are apparently soooo different to every other monarchy in the world, an agreement is impossible.

However no-ones actually tried.
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  #880  
Old 08-16-2015, 12:20 PM
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The Queen never expected to be Monarch. Her fathers life and her families lives were turned completley upside down due to the abdication. Her Majesty made that famous speech as a young woman regarding dedicating her life to her duty. Does anyone seriously believe that Prince William will abdicate or even speak of it, even if he was considering it in his Grandmother's life time? Was it coincidental that his father waited until The Queen Mothers death to remarry?
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