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  #41  
Old 07-21-2011, 10:30 AM
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I am not surprised one bit that Andrew has stepped down from his position as Trade Envoy for the UK. Although, it may in a small way have a bit to do with Sarah, there was just too many other things that happened to lay it all on Andrew being pro-Sarah. I'm thinking that possibly there were too many "iffy" questions that arose from his work that pointed to "mixing business with pleasure and personal gains" and expenses that were over the top. His relationship with Epstein didn't do him any favors either.

It seems like this is geared towards keeping Andrew in the UK and that kind of makes it easier to keep an eye on him as least as far as his travels and what is paid for out of the public purse.

Its not a good time for the Yorks at all. Sarah with her financial and emotional baggage, Andrew being "grounded" and the girls being told to seek employment in the private sector. I think this will be an interesting time for them and I do see them pulling together as a family even more so now. We'll see.
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  #42  
Old 07-21-2011, 10:52 AM
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My question is will Andrew's new position carry diplomatic immunity? That Epstein ordeal might not be over, they might wanna question Andrew about certain things.
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  #43  
Old 07-21-2011, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
Seems like Andrew and the girls made their choice: pro Sarah and are now frozen out. It's sad but with someone like Sarah in tow (and I'm sure we haven't heard all about the background of the "Cash for Access"-scandal yet) and with both their needs for fresh money it is definately not good to be too closely connected to them for the BRF.
Kataryn, I don't necessarily agree that Andrew, Beatrice & Eugenie's alliance with Sarah has directly resulted in their being "frozen out." Andrew's long been criticized for being free and easy with travel costs and friendships with unsavory fellows in return for what can certainly be seen as financial gain. While "greed" is the common denominator of the two (S&A,) I don't see that Andrew's loss of position is directly the result of having Sarah as his perpetual millstone. I think he "earned" this demotion all on his own demerits.
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  #44  
Old 07-21-2011, 12:29 PM
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ITA NotAPretender.

I think it's too easy to blame Sarah for everything. Andrew is grown man who made his choices. IMO Andrew is more like Sarah than he's given credit for being. He's Her Majesty's son so his bad deeds are excused or put on Sarah because we can't be too critical because he's royal born and a man. Expecting special treatment because of his position as Trade Ambassador has nothing to do with Sarah. It has everything to do with him and him alone. I'm no fan of Sarah but neither am I willing to heep all blame and responsiblity for bad behavior on Sarah alone. Andrew alone is responsible for his choices. Also, has anyone ever thought that he fell in love with and married Sarah because they're kindred spirits? All their negative and postive traits match. They probably should never have divorced but that's another discussion. But IMO Andrew's just as bad or good as Sarah.
  #45  
Old 07-21-2011, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Diarist View Post
If you want me to take a guess - and it is a guess, then I reckon that when the scandal first broke [about 3 months ago] I expect that at that time nothing new was pencilled into the Duke's diary. [Normally they would be 'booking things' up to 12 - 18 months in advance.]
I agree...I've noticed for a little while that Prince Andrew hasn't been doing any foreign trips. It seemed that he was keeping a low profile.

It will be interesting to see what he ends up doing after this. He will be spending more time in Great Britain, I guess. It must be a sad time for Andrew, because he seemed to really believe in his work. Maybe this is why he is supposed to be in Yellowknife with Beatrice and Eugenie (he is supposed to be there later this month, if he isn't there already)...he can avoid any media storm in Britain.

This Saturday would have been Andrew's 25th anniversary, too. He must have a lot of regrets right now.
  #46  
Old 07-21-2011, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NotAPretender View Post
Kataryn, I don't necessarily agree that Andrew, Beatrice & Eugenie's alliance with Sarah has directly resulted in their being "frozen out." Andrew's long been criticized for being free and easy with travel costs and friendships with unsavory fellows in return for what can certainly be seen as financial gain. While "greed" is the common denominator of the two (S&A,) I don't see that Andrew's loss of position is directly the result of having Sarah as his perpetual millstone. I think he "earned" this demotion all on his own demerits.
I agree - Sarah can't be blamed for all of Andrew's misfortunes. For one thing, he chose to marry her and then to stand by her through thick and thin (some might argue that was a bad decision, but it was Andrew's choice). Andrew has chosen to consort with certain people and take certain expensive trips. Also, while it might have been heroic for Andrew to try to bail Sarah out of debt, turning to a convicted sex offender for help was very unwise. And it was Andrew, not Sarah, who was photographed with Epstein.
  #47  
Old 07-21-2011, 01:08 PM
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There is enough to talk about in regards to Andrew's Current Events before we start throwing in Sarah. This is Andrew's Current Events thread.
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  #48  
Old 07-21-2011, 01:18 PM
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Prince Andrew to quit as UKTI ambassador | Royal Insight

Its a sad day for Britain
  #49  
Old 07-21-2011, 01:34 PM
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This article has some details about what Prince Andrew may be doing in the future:

Revealed: Duke May Sever UKTI Link | duke_of_york | uk_trade_and_investment | olympics | Kleinman | Sky News Blogs
  #50  
Old 07-21-2011, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by sliver_bic View Post
My question is will Andrew's new position carry diplomatic immunity? That Epstein ordeal might not be over, they might wanna question Andrew about certain things.
Sorry to quote myself but wondering if anyone had a thought on this.
  #51  
Old 07-21-2011, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by sliver_bic View Post
Sorry to quote myself but wondering if anyone had a thought on this.
Sorry- I'm an attorney and unless I misunderstood your question, it does not make any sense. I started to list all of the reasons why it doesn't make sense, but it was taking too much time.

The "they" who "might wanna" question Andrew about "certain things" would necessarily be US authorities, since domestic immunity can't be claimed in a diplomat's home country. Howeber, he is not in the US or in custody here. Also, I am unaware of Andrew being suspected of any criminal acts in the United States.

His only crime, as far as I am aware, is keeping bad company. He "might wanna" question himself about that, since a moment of introspection and reflection about the company he keeps is long overdue.
  #52  
Old 07-21-2011, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
Seems like Andrew and the girls made their choice: pro Sarah and are now frozen out.
Do you think the girls have also been frozen out? I have heard that Andrew always was and continues to be his mother's favorite. With such a high profile job and higher profile bad choices, he had to lose his post, but do you think he has been frozen out of the family as well? Public and private life are quite different.

I'm wondering what everyone thinks about this.
  #53  
Old 07-21-2011, 02:55 PM
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Fascinator, I tend not to speculate, as it generally is of no use. Where's you get your J.D.?
  #54  
Old 07-21-2011, 02:58 PM
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I'm predicting that we'll see Andrew's engagements on any particular day scheduled so close to each other distance-wise that we won't be seeing much use of helicopters between appointments.
  #55  
Old 07-21-2011, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sliver_bic View Post
Sorry to quote myself but wondering if anyone had a thought on this.
So far as the UK is concerned, Andrew even in his role as the UK Special Representative for trade has NEVER been able to claim diplomatic immunity, for the simple reason that he is NOT an accredited UK Diplomat. Andrew would therefore be regarded and treated in exactly the same way as a non-royal UK Citizen: only the Queen [Sovereign] is exempt from prosecution here in the UK

It therefore follows that if it was felt that Andrew has committed an offence under British [English] law, he could be charged with an offence. This happened here in the UK with the Princess Royal, who has a couple of minor criminal convictions in relation to speeding [a traffic offence] and IIRC, the keeping of a dangerous dog.

If it was felt that he had committed an offence abroad, Andrew could EITHER be arrested and charged with the offence if he was abroad at the time of his arrest, or, if he remained in the UK and a foreign power wished him to stand trial, he would theoretically have to stand trial, he could theoretically be extradited to the foreign power concerned to face the charges.

There is one caveat: even though we say in England that 'everyone is equal under the law, so far as the Epstein case is concerned, in practice the powers-that-be in either the UK and/or the US might decide to go after Epstein and not Andrew for what I will call quasi-politcial reasons.

Hope this helps

Alex
  #56  
Old 07-21-2011, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Diarist View Post
So far as the UK is concerned, Andrew even in his role as the UK Special Representative for trade has NEVER been able to claim diplomatic immunity, for the simple reason that he is NOT an accredited UK Diplomat. Andrew would therefore be regarded and treated in exactly the same way as a non-royal UK Citizen: only the Queen [Sovereign] is exempt from prosecution here in the UK
So Andrew cannot claim diplomatic immunity in the UK because he is not an accredited UK diplomat? Interesting ...

Or could it be that diplomatic immunity is meaningless in one's home country?
  #57  
Old 07-21-2011, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by fascinator View Post
Sorry- I'm an attorney and unless I misunderstood your question, it does not make any sense. I started to list all of the reasons why it doesn't make sense, but it was taking too much time.

The "they" who "might wanna" question Andrew about "certain things" would necessarily be US authorities, since domestic immunity can't be claimed in a diplomat's home country. Howeber, he is not in the US or in custody here. Also, I am unaware of Andrew being suspected of any criminal acts in the United States.

His only crime, as far as I am aware, is keeping bad company. He "might wanna" question himself about that, since a moment of introspection and reflection about the company he keeps is long overdue.
Looking back at my comment I missed an "as" which makes it a little harder to decipher but not impossible. A simple, he didn't commit a crime would've sufficed despite the fact that I never claimed that he did. There were articles that claimed Andrew could claim Diplomatic Immunity, so I was going on those.

Prince Andrew may be quizzed as FBI reopen Jeffrey Epstein sex case | Mail Online

Quote:
It is highly likely that detectives will also wish to question the Prince as part of their investigation. If subpoenaed he may be forced to plead diplomatic immunity based on his role as business envoy for UK Trade and Investment. Last week David Cameron faced calls from the floor of the Commons to remove the Prince from his post.
  #58  
Old 07-21-2011, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Diarist View Post
So far as the UK is concerned, Andrew even in his role as the UK Special Representative for trade has NEVER been able to claim diplomatic immunity, for the simple reason that he is NOT an accredited UK Diplomat. Andrew would therefore be regarded and treated in exactly the same way as a non-royal UK Citizen: only the Queen [Sovereign] is exempt from prosecution here in the UK

It therefore follows that if it was felt that Andrew has committed an offence under British [English] law, he could be charged with an offence. This happened here in the UK with the Princess Royal, who has a couple of minor criminal convictions in relation to speeding [a traffic offence] and IIRC, the keeping of a dangerous dog.

If it was felt that he had committed an offence abroad, Andrew could EITHER be arrested and charged with the offence if he was abroad at the time of his arrest, or, if he remained in the UK and a foreign power wished him to stand trial, he would theoretically have to stand trial, he could theoretically be extradited to the foreign power concerned to face the charges.

There is one caveat: even though we say in England that 'everyone is equal under the law, so far as the Epstein case is concerned, in practice the powers-that-be in either the UK and/or the US might decide to go after Epstein and not Andrew for what I will call quasi-politcial reasons.

I thought I had an understanding of the charges against Epstein and the improprieties alleged with respect to Prince Andrew. Epstein paid underage (as young as 14) girls for sex. That is not disputed. Am I wrong in thinking that Andrew has never been accused of any such thing? An underage girl (US age of consent, not UK) was supposedly flown to England by Epstein to "entertain" Andrew, but they never had sex.

If Andrew is not even accused of committing a crime, then why would you dismiss the decision to not "go after" Andrew as "quasi-political", unless by "quasi-political" you mean rooted in facts, law and logic?

Please, help me with this, I might be missing a part of the story.
  #59  
Old 07-21-2011, 03:35 PM
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It seems to me that by Diarist's use of the term "if it was felt", she's speaking hypothetically. No, Andrew hasn't been charged with anything, but "if he was charged..."
  #60  
Old 07-21-2011, 04:00 PM
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......
These articles jumble together a number of crucial distinctions regarding the concept of diplomatic immunity and its practical application in this context. For a number of reasons, I don't believe that Andrew could have effectively invoked diplomatic immunity prior to leaving his post and due to the implications of even attempting to, I don't think he would have tried. I am also finding it difficult to imagine a scenario where this would even come up.

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