Earl and Countess of Wessex Current Events 3: May-September 2004

[hrhcp]

American Chai  Posted: Jun 27th, 2004 - 5:57 pm

If Sophie and Edward have a son, that son will be the Duke of Edinburgh on Edward's death

I don't think so ..... i think this is only a lifetime title, and that the monarch has the say to whom it is awarded next.

for instance, If Prince Philip is the current Duke of Edinburgh, I would have expected Prince Charles to become the Duke on his father's death as first male son, but no, the Monarch - QE2 - gives it not to the second born son, but to the last of the lot.

 

[sara1981]

Originally posted by King Christian@Jun 27th, 2004 - 9:58 pm

American Chai   Posted: Jun 27th, 2004 - 5:57 pm

If Sophie and Edward have a son, that son will be the Duke of Edinburgh on Edward's death

I don't think so ..... i think this is only a lifetime title, and that the monarch has the say to whom it is awarded next.

for instance, If Prince Philip is the current Duke of Edinburgh, I would have expected Prince Charles to become the Duke on his father's death as first male son, but no, the Monarch - QE2 - gives it not to the second born son, but to the last of the lot.

right!

Sophie wouldnt have another baby she told herself or she told to Prince Edward about cant another baby since she had collaspe with her pregnant.

if Prince Charles would become King or Prince Edward would become Duke of Edinburgh after Philip's death.

Sara Boyce

 

[moosey60]

So...Charles could become Prince of Wales and Duke of Edinburgh? Curious. Sooooo....would William and Harry become W & H of Wales and Edinburgh? Charles was born Prince Charles of Edinburgh, was he not?

What is the system in inheriting titles like "Duke of Edinburgh"? Is it at the disposal of the queen/king or is there a "waiting list" so to speak?

 

[hrhcp]

moosey60  Posted: Jun 27th, 2004 - 8:20 pm

What is the system in inheriting titles like "Duke of Edinburgh"? Is it at the disposal of the queen/king or is there a "waiting list" so to speak?

I would say you hit it on the nub --- "at the disposal of the monarch".

 

[moosey60]

Originally posted by sara1981@Jun 27th, 2004 - 10:15 pm
Sophie wouldnt have another baby she told herself or she told to Prince Edward about cant another baby since she had collaspe with her pregnant.

:flower: I'm sorry, but what do you mean? Sophie would collapse with her "pregnant"? From my understanding Sophie is slightly infertile but perfectly healthy. I do not think that Louise's premature birth was any fault of Sophie's.

I think Edward and Sophie are optimistic that they will have another child after Louise.

 

[hrhcp]

"From my understanding Sophie is slightly infertile but perfectly healthy."

er ....erhm .... isn't that an oxymoron ?
- how can she be even be the teensiet bit "slightly infertile" if she's been pregnant and given birth ?

 

[Princess Haya]

Originally posted by King Christian@Jun 28th, 2004 - 10:58 am

American Chai   Posted: Jun 27th, 2004 - 5:57 pm

If Sophie and Edward have a son, that son will be the Duke of Edinburgh on Edward's death

I don't think so ..... i think this is only a lifetime title, and that the monarch has the say to whom it is awarded next.

for instance, If Prince Philip is the current Duke of Edinburgh, I would have expected Prince Charles to become the Duke on his father's death as first male son, but no, the Monarch - QE2 - gives it not to the second born son, but to the last of the lot.

The most likely scenario is that Charles and Andrew have waived their right to the title for themselves and their descendants.
This happened in the past with the Dukedom of Sax-Coburg-Gotha which should have gone to Prince Alberts eldest son when Duke Ernst died. Instead Edward VII waived his right to the title and it went to the second son who, funnily enough, was Duke of Edinburgh. Upon his death without an heir the Duke of Connaught waived his right and the Dukedom passed to the Duke of Albany, Prince Leopold's son.

 

[moosey60]

Originally posted by King Christian@Jun 27th, 2004 - 10:28 pm
"From my understanding Sophie is slightly infertile but perfectly healthy."

er ....erhm .... isn't that an oxymoron ?
- how can she be even be the teensiet bit "slightly infertile" if she's been pregnant and given birth ?

Being infertile doesn't mean that she's unhealthy as in "Oh no, I'm infertile, I shall now die." It is to my understanding that she did experience fertility problems esp. regarding the state of her fallopian tubes. She had an ectopic pregnancy (according to the press and perhaps, Sara).

 

[hrhcp]

so .... just this one child, and that's it ?

 

[moosey60]

Originally posted by King Christian@Jun 27th, 2004 - 11:11 pm
so .... just this one child, and that's it ?

Eh? Is this "one child" Louise? Well...I don't know, I mean they could potentially have another. I read an article that talked (for some reason) about how Sophie may never have a child (this was before Louise) because of the state of her fallopian tubes. Hmm...

Although, back to the topic, this would be a good opportunity to set up a small poll...."Who will be the next Duke of Edinburgh" options: Edward, Charles, Andrew, William, Harry, etc.

 

[hrhcp]

thanks for correcting a misunderstanding, Moosey.

 

[Emma Catherine]

I can't recall exactly where I read it, but it was in one of the more reliable London papers. Yes, Prince Edward will inherit his father's title of Duke of Edinburgh. (This doesn't have anything to do with the state of Prince Philip's health, it was just a news story regarding the future of the title.) The Queen's father, King George VI, gave this title to Prince Philip on the eve of his marriage to Princess Elizabeth. It is not a title reserved for the heir to the throne. Prince Charles is already the Duke of Cornwall. Prince Andrew was given the title Duke of York in honor of the Queen's father, George VI, on the eve of his marriage to Princess Elizabeth. So it would seem to follow that the next title to be passed on to a son would be the Duke of Edinburgh. And, yes, Sophie would be the Duchess of Edinburgh. Royal Dukedoms do not usually pass through the female line, but traditions change everyday, so one never knows. Most likely Lady Louise will keep her title of Lady Louise Windsor and the title of Duke of Edinburgh will return to the royal family to be used in another generation.

 

[Emma Catherine]

Apologies...meant to say that the title of Duke of York was given to Prince Andrew on the eve of his marriage to Sarah.

 

[Elspeth]

I think it was stated at the time of Prince Edward's wedding that he was given an earldom, not a dukedom, because the Queen had decided that he should get the Duke of Edinburgh title. I think they said that this would happen after both the Queen and Prince Philip had died, not just the latter. If that's the case, I wonder if Charles will honour his mother's wish, since there seems to be precious little love lost between Charles and Edward since the incident over Ardent's filming at St. Andrews.

If Edward does become Duke of Edinburgh, I wonder if his daughter will become Princess Louise at that point.

 

[diamond_boy_uk]

The Queen had discussed the matter both with Phillip, Edward and Charles a week before the impending wedding. All three gave their full consent.

On the death of both The Queen and Prince Phillip the title of Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh will pass to Edward and his Wife (if still Sophie).
Lady Louise could therefore be installed as HRH/HH Princess of Edinburgh. That is if the current monarch allows it.

 

[CathyEarnshaw]

Originally posted by diamond_boy_uk@Jun 29th, 2004 - 2:05 pm
The Queen had discussed the matter both with Phillip, Edward and Charles a week before the impending wedding. All three gave their full consent.

On the death of both The Queen and Prince Phillip the title of Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh will pass to Edward and his Wife (if still Sophie).
Lady Louise could therefore be installed as HRH/HH Princess of Edinburgh. That is if the current monarch allows it.

You are close but not completely right.

If the Duke of Edinburgh dies before the Queen, Charles will succeed to the dukedom. Why? Because of the letters patent issued for the creation of the title in 1947.

If Charles dies before his father, and his father dies before the queen, William will succeed to the title.

The line of succession for this dukedom is Charles, William, Harry, ANdrew, Edward.

Should Charles succeed his father, he would remain duke (but probably not styled as duke of Edinburgh), until he became king, when all of his titles would return to the Crown (and Wills would automatically become duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay when his father succeeds)

When Charles is King and his father deceased, he will then create a NEW dukedom of Edinburgh for Edward (unlikely to also include the earldom of Merioneth and the Barony of Greenwich due to Edward's current peerage). The Earl of Wessex title will probably become the courtesy title for the eldest son, and the eldest son's eldest son would be Viscount Severn. I would be surprised if Edward and Sophie have another child so the dukedom would become extinct after one generation.

Louise is technically and legally a princess of the UK of GB and NI due to the 1917 letters patent that extends the title of prince or princess and the RH to children of the sovereign and to the children of the sovereign's grandchildren in the male line.

 

[A.C.C.]

Originally posted by Marlene+Jun 29th, 2004 - 3:15 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Marlene @ Jun 29th, 2004 - 3:15 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-diamond_boy_uk@Jun 29th, 2004 - 2:05 pm
The Queen had discussed the matter both with Phillip, Edward and Charles a week before the impending wedding. All three gave their full consent.

On the death of both The Queen and Prince Phillip the title of Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh will pass to Edward and his Wife (if still Sophie).
Lady Louise could therefore be installed as HRH/HH Princess of Edinburgh. That is if the current monarch allows it.

You are close but not completely right.

If the Duke of Edinburgh dies before the Queen, Charles will succeed to the dukedom. Why? Because of the letters patent issued for the creation of the title in 1947.

If Charles dies before his father, and his father dies before the queen, William will succeed to the title.

The line of succession for this dukedom is Charles, William, Harry, ANdrew, Edward.

Should Charles succeed his father, he would remain duke (but probably not styled as duke of Edinburgh), until he became king, when all of his titles would return to the Crown (and Wills would automatically become duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay when his father succeeds)

When Charles is King and his father deceased, he will then create a NEW dukedom of Edinburgh for Edward (unlikely to also include the earldom of Merioneth and the Barony of Greenwich due to Edward's current peerage). The Earl of Wessex title will probably become the courtesy title for the eldest son, and the eldest son's eldest son would be Viscount Severn. I would be surprised if Edward and Sophie have another child so the dukedom would become extinct after one generation.

Louise is technically and legally a princess of the UK of GB and NI due to the 1917 letters patent that extends the title of prince or princess and the RH to children of the sovereign and to the children of the sovereign's grandchildren in the male line. [/b][/quote]
So Edward has to wait for both of his parents to die and for his brother Charles to become king and loose all the titles he carries as heir to the throne, before he can become the Duke of Edinburgh, or am I all wrong? And another question, since Louise is legally and technically a princess, what would it take for her to be addressed as such if things about the present situation were to change in the future?

 

[grecka]

I don't think that's completely accurate. As I understand it, Edward will succeed to the title on the death of Prince Philip. It's already set in stone, and I don't believe that either William or Charles will succeed to the title. Charles is already Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay, those are his duchies and his only duchies. William will succeed to these duchies in his own time when Charles becomes king. Edward will be duke from the time of Philip's death until his own, and, I would think it likely that, by the time he dies, the monarchy will have already been abolished or the right of male premogenure will have been abolished -{which will mean Louis will become Duchess of Edinburgh in her own right}. There is a president for this, as there have been several ruling Duchesses in Britain in the past {including one in Marlborough, one in Kingston-upon-Hull-extinct-, one in Hamilton, and one in Bath-now Somerset-. I think it's just a matter of time until the British royal family follows other European royal families in giving the first child, no matter what gender, the right of premogenure, which will mean, in no uncertain terms, Louis will inherit Edinburgh from her father and so forth until the Duchy and the monarchy is abolished.

 

[Julian]

Several people seem to think that upon Prince Philip's death that the Edinburgh title will go directly to Edward. However, that is not the case here. Edinburgh is a title belonging to the royal house (as were York, Kent, Cambridge and some others that are only ever given to royal sons). At the same time, it can keep descending to a surviving eldes son if there is one, just like an ordinary non-royal dukedom or other hereditary peerage. In this instance, if the Queen survives her husband, then the title will in fact go to the Prince of Wales. Upon his own accession to the throne, the title then will disappear and will have to be REcreated by a future King Charles for his brother. It's important to notice that this will be a recreation, and not a descending title from the present Duke of Edinburgh.

What's more interesting to me, is what will happen to the title once it is conferred on Edward. Will he have a son to pass it on to, or will as some suggest in this thread be modern thinking and request it be created with special remainder to his daughter Louise, who can then succeed as Duchess of Edinburgh in her own right? Also, what about the situation with courtesy titles? Edward is presently Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn; his father is also not only Duke of Edinburgh but has an earldom and barony. Therefore, if the Edinburgh title is recreated for Edward in future, will the present Duke's other titles be also recreated, or will Wessex and Severn be considered enough? The Edinburgh title has also been suggested for Prince Harry if Edward has no sons and no remainder for it is created for Lady Louise (meaning, it would revert again to the Crown upon Edward's death). I don't think it likely they would wait this long for finding a dukedom for Harry. More likely, he will marry long before that day and as is customary another title from within the royal array of titles will be chosen for him.

 

[A.C.C.]

Originally posted by Julian@Jun 29th, 2004 - 6:03 pm
Several people seem to think that upon Prince Philip's death that the Edinburgh title will go directly to Edward. However, that is not the case here. Edinburgh is a title belonging to the royal house (as were York, Kent, Cambridge and some others that are only ever given to royal sons). At the same time, it can keep descending to a surviving eldes son if there is one, just like an ordinary non-royal dukedom or other hereditary peerage. In this instance, if the Queen survives her husband, then the title will in fact go to the Prince of Wales. Upon his own accession to the throne, the title then will disappear and will have to be REcreated by a future King Charles for his brother. It's important to notice that this will be a recreation, and not a descending title from the present Duke of Edinburgh.

What's more interesting to me, is what will happen to the title once it is conferred on Edward. Will he have a son to pass it on to, or will as some suggest in this thread be modern thinking and request it be created with special remainder to his daughter Louise, who can then succeed as Duchess of Edinburgh in her own right? Also, what about the situation with courtesy titles? Edward is presently Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn; his father is also not only Duke of Edinburgh but has an earldom and barony. Therefore, if the Edinburgh title is recreated for Edward in future, will the present Duke's other titles be also recreated, or will Wessex and Severn be considered enough? The Edinburgh title has also been suggested for Prince Harry if Edward has no sons and no remainder for it is created for Lady Louise (meaning, it would revert again to the Crown upon Edward's death). I don't think it likely they would wait this long for finding a dukedom for Harry. More likely, he will marry long before that day and as is customary another title from within the royal array of titles will be chosen for him.

That is the scenario I thought would happen.

 

[Princess Haya]

When Edward & Sophie were married the statement was made that Edward WOULD inherit his father's title. This seems to indicate that new letters patent have been drawn up and that Charles & Andrew have waived their rights to the title for themselves and their heirs.

 

[Princess Haya]

Originally posted by grecka@Jun 30th, 2004 - 6:51 am
I don't think that's completely accurate. As I understand it, Edward will succeed to the title on the death of Prince Philip. It's already set in stone, and I don't believe that either William or Charles will succeed to the title. Charles is already Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay, those are his duchies and his only duchies. William will succeed to these duchies in his own time when Charles becomes king. Edward will be duke from the time of Philip's death until his own, and, I would think it likely that, by the time he dies, the monarchy will have already been abolished or the right of male premogenure will have been abolished -{which will mean Louis will become Duchess of Edinburgh in her own right}. There is a president for this, as there have been several ruling Duchesses in Britain in the past {including one in Marlborough, one in Kingston-upon-Hull-extinct-, one in Hamilton, and one in Bath-now Somerset-. I think it's just a matter of time until the British royal family follows other European royal families in giving the first child, no matter what gender, the right of premogenure, which will mean, in no uncertain terms, Louis will inherit Edinburgh from her father and so forth until the Duchy and the monarchy is abolished.

greka,
I really take offence at your comments which assume that the monarchy is in danger of being abolished!

Britain cannot afford to get rid of the monarchy, it is the country's biggest tourism draw.

I do agree that in the near future the laws of primogeniture will be abolished and that the Royal Marriages Act will be repealled but I think your assumptions are a little presumtive.

May I ask where you come from????????

 

[Julian]

When Edward and Sophie were married the statement was made that Edward be eventually given the Edinburgh title. Everything I have ever read has taken this to mean that the present Edinburgh title will pass to Prince Charles if his mother is still alive, and that he in turn will have to recreate the title by new Letters Patent upon his own accession to the throne.

Personally I've never heard of anyone waiving their hereditary title in favour of a younger brother. It's just not done in English custom. Someone may think of an exception but I think they will go the route I've described.

 

[CathyEarnshaw]

Originally posted by grecka@Jun 29th, 2004 - 5:51 pm
I don't think that's completely accurate. As I understand it, Edward will succeed to the title on the death of Prince Philip. It's already set in stone, and I don't believe that either William or Charles will succeed to the title. Charles is already Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay, those are his duchies and his only duchies. William will succeed to these duchies in his own time when Charles becomes king. Edward will be duke from the time of Philip's death until his own, and, I would think it likely that, by the time he dies, the monarchy will have already been abolished or the right of male premogenure will have been abolished -{which will mean Louis will become Duchess of Edinburgh in her own right}. There is a president for this, as there have been several ruling Duchesses in Britain in the past {including one in Marlborough, one in Kingston-upon-Hull-extinct-, one in Hamilton, and one in Bath-now Somerset-. I think it's just a matter of time until the British royal family follows other European royal families in giving the first child, no matter what gender, the right of premogenure, which will mean, in no uncertain terms, Louis will inherit Edinburgh from her father and so forth until the Duchy and the monarchy is abolished.

The current Dukedom of Edinburgh is defined by the 1947 Letters Patent - heirs male of Philip. As it was pointed out at the time of Edward's wedding, he will be created (not inherit) a new duke of Edinburgh. A new Letters Patent has not been issued, and will not be issued until CHarles is ready to create Edward as Duke of Edinburgh.

Edward will become the 1st of a new creation for the Dukedom. His father is Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth and Baron Greenwich. The latter two titles will probably not be created for Edward.

His brothers and nephews cannot waive rights to titles. Nor will the monarchy be abolished -- and if the Britain adopts equal rights succession, this will not affect the Edinburgh title -- most likely, the new creation will be males only as is the case with most peerages.

I think you mean precedent, not president. There are a number of titles where women can inherit (mostly Scottish peerages) Some titles have allowed exceptions -- the MOuntbatten earldom was changed to allow for Patricia and Pamela to have succession rights - and their male descendants ... not their female descendants.

Each peerage is separate by creation of a letters patent by the sovereign that defines the inheritance, usually male descendants.

The British throne is in no danger of being abolished. Republicans are not running rampant through the streets, demanding an overthrow.

 

[CathyEarnshaw]

Originally posted by Princess Haya@Jun 29th, 2004 - 7:47 pm
When Edward & Sophie were married the statement was made that Edward WOULD inherit his father's title. This seems to indicate that new letters patent have been drawn up and that Charles & Andrew have waived their rights to the title for themselves and their heirs.

PH - one cannot waive one's rights. It was made clear at the time of the wedding - read the official announcements - that Edward would be created duke of Edinburgh. He will not inherit his father's dukedom . A new letters patent has not been created - it wil be created only when Charles is king, and his father is deceased.

Edward will be a new duke of Edinburgh.

 

[CathyEarnshaw]

Originally posted by Julian@Jun 29th, 2004 - 9:25 pm
When Edward and Sophie were married the statement was made that Edward be eventually given the Edinburgh title. Everything I have ever read has taken this to mean that the present Edinburgh title will pass to Prince Charles if his mother is still alive, and that he in turn will have to recreate the title by new Letters Patent upon his own accession to the throne.

Personally I've never heard of anyone waiving their hereditary title in favour of a younger brother. It's just not done in English custom. Someone may think of an exception but I think they will go the route I've described.

Julian - you are right ... Edward' future dukedom will be a new creation. There are all sorts of scenarios - what if Charles, William and Harry die before their grandparents ... Andrew becomes the heir to the crown and the dukedom ..
-- there are a variety of sceniarios where the present dukedom could survive with the male members of the family ahead of Edward.

By the way, I had this all confirmed by the Queen's private secretary not long after the wedding.

 

[strengthnhonor]

Found off of the British Royal Family webiste:

TRH The Earl and Countess of Wessex

Upon his marriage to Miss Sophie Rhys-Jones in 1999, he was created The Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn; at the same time it was announced that His Royal Highness will eventually succeed to the title of The Duke of Edinburgh.

 

[Elspeth]

The question of whether Edward's title will go to his daughter (if he doesn't have any sons) is mirrored in the situation with the Duke of York title since Prince Andrew doesn't have sons and is unlikely to do so. Since that title is traditionally given to the second son of the monarch, I assume it'll die with him and eventually be given to William's second son if he become king and has more than one son.

 

[Elspeth]

greka,
I really take offence at your comments which assume that the monarchy is in danger of being abolished!

Why? Disagreeing is one thing, but why take offence? People are entitled to express their opinions, and it isn't as if it was stated as a preferred scenario.

 

[Elspeth]

Louise is technically and legally a princess of the UK of GB and NI due to the 1917 letters patent that extends the title of prince or princess and the RH to children of the sovereign and to the children of the sovereign's grandchildren in the male line.

Yes, I know; I was referring to the way she was styled, not to her actual status. There's a certain logic to her being referred to as Lady Louise while she's the daughter of an Earl rather than a Duke, since her father's title is different from his brothers', but it just seems weird that the daughters of the Duke of York are called Princess while the daughter of the Duke of Edinburgh was still called Lady.