Your favourite of Henry VIII's Wives?

[Vasillisos Markos]

But my dear, you must tell Mr. Russo that Scarlett Johanssen (sp?) and, to a lesser extent Natalie Portman, engage in sexual romps with Henry VIII, so if he liked the sexed up version of The Tudors, he may enjoy this movie.

I am afraid I cannot recommend a good book about Anne's beheading, sorry. However, I did run across this review and I think I may get the book. See what you think:

http://entertainment.timesonline.co...tainment/books/non-fiction/article6894033.ece

In case the link doesn't work for some, here it is again:

The Lady in the Tower: The Fall of Anne Boleyn by Alison Weir review | Non-fiction book reviews - Times Online

If this does not work, the book is titled The Lady in the Tower by Alison Weir. If memory serves, I think I read a biography of Henry VIII by Weir. The reviewer finds fault with many of Weir's assertions, and he seems to like a biography of Anne Boleyn by Eric Ives but the review does not give the title of that book

It might be interesting to compare Weir's book, which the reviewer thinks is faulty, to Ives' treatment of Anne Boleyn.

 

[nascarlucy]

I've watched the documentary on the 6th wives of Henry VIII. I like Jane Seymour the best. Why, I don't know. She seemed to be a nice person. I didn't really dislike any of them. I felt sorry for Catherine Howard though.

 

[nascarlucy]

I remember in high school we were watching a movie about Henry VIII and parts of it were cut out. Later when I saw it I couldn't understand why as it was hardly R-rated (the love scene was a rated G version) and it wasn't anything during that time period (late 1970's) that you wouldn't have seen on television. The English teacher that I had was very very conservative and thought that certain scenes should not be shown to high school students. This movie was probably tame compared to other movies that later come out about him.

When I read Vasillisos Markos's post, this made me think of this movie.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Mr Russo sounds like my kind of guy! I fast forwarded through much of the violence, I found it unbearable.
The execution scenes made me feel sorry for Anne too, it was heartbreaking and beautiful at once.

 

[georgiea]

I actually really admire the way Anne of Cleves built herself up after the divorce. She did something very rare for those days, she was actully happy and succesful as a divorcee and outlived Henry and his wives.

autie Anne of Cleves would be my second choice because of her making a life for herself after her annulment from King VIII. I think she was very friendly with Princess Mary and had an allotment from the king for her living expenses.

 

[Russophile]

I found a few books on the Tudors by Eric Ives:
Lady Jane Grey: A Tudor Mystery
The Life and Death of Anne Boleyn 'the most happy'
Henry VIII

What I found most interesting in Showtimes The Tudors, was all the jockeying for positions within the nobility, especially the Boleyn's. That was portrayed very well. Are there any books out that document that? And as an aside (I expect this to get sanitized for our readers protection! ) is it me, or does it remind one of the Boleyn's machinations the way that the Middleton's family is acting towards Wills??

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

I think there are plenty of books out there which describe the Boleyn and Howard families and the course of actions they undertook to gain access and influence to the throne. I read excerpts from one book on line but could not locate it just now. Anyhoo, it details that the Boleyn's were not "merchant" class but were of the nobility for some time and that out of Anne's grandparents or great-grandparents, she counted earls, countesses, daughters of dukes, earls, etc. Many authors described her family as being social climbers but they were already upper class! In particular, they compared her antecedents to those of Jane Seymour and Jane came up wanting!

I have read and seen (in movies and tv) two very different depictions of Anne's mother. In The Other Boleyn Girl, Lady Howard is portrayed as being opposed to her husband's machinations in attempting to move his family closer to the throne. In particular, when the family receives the forfeited property of Buckingham who is executed as a traitor, she warns her husband that they same thing could happen to them.

 

[Russophile]

Lady Howard is portrayed as being opposed to her husband's machinations in attempting to move his family closer to the throne. In particular, when the family receives the forfeited property of Buckingham who is executed as a traitor, she warns her husband that they same thing could happen to them.

Doesn't that bring the saying to mind: Those that live by the sword die by the sword?
The Sword, in this case being Great Harry.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Doesn't that bring the saying to mind: Those that live by the sword die by the sword?
The Sword, in this case being Great Harry.

Righto, my dear. Lady Howard is a sympathetic figure in this movie, I am not sure how the book portrays her. But she was prescient in telling her husband to beware the King because in this case, he giveth and he taketh away at his pleasure.

 

[auntie]

In history Anne's mother is mentioned very little, which led historians to believe that she died somewhere during Anne's long courtship with Henry.

 

[Zonk]

Auntie....are you referring to Elizabeth Bolyen?

According to Wikipedia , after her children were killed, she retired to the countryside and died there in 1538.

I have read and seen conflicting information on Elizabeth. According to The Other Bolyen Girl she basically turned her back on George and Anne when they were accused of their crimes and executed. In the movie, she seems devastated by the loss of her children. In the Six Wives of Henry VIII, she is barely mentioned.

 

[Lumutqueen]

She was wonderfully portrayed in The Other Boleyn Girl.
But yeah she died 2 years after George and Anne.

 

[auntie]

I do remember reading in some history book, or website that the reason she is mentioned so little is becase she must have died soemwhere before, and therefore isn't mentioned in the trial or execution of her children. Could be it was inaccurate.

 

[Zonk]

Yes she definitely died afterwards.

I think like most women of her time she wasn't thought of as important so perhaps her thoughts and opinions were asked for or recorded. You definitely get the feeling that the men in the Bolyen/Howard families ran the show.

Honestly, how greedy was the Duke of Norfolk? You manage to make one neice a Queen, she dies and you get another one crowned Queen to the same Husband. Call me silly, but after Anne died I would have stayed away from court politics. But I guess the Seymours didn't think the same, as they pushed Jane in Henry's face.

 

[georgiea]

The Duke if Norfolk was power hungry. If he was less into power maybe his common sense would have been used. Only the Duke died by King Henry's hand correct? I thought Queen Anne's father retired from court after his childrens' executions. King Henry told him to leave.

 

[Zonk]

Thomas retired after his children's death.

I think the Duke was in the Tower waiting death and Henry's death saved him. But by this time his son, grandson and great grandson had already been executed. I believe that after the truth about Catherine Howard came out, a bunch of Howards were arrested. They even arrested the eldery Dowager Duchess of Norfolk.

 

[georgiea]

The Dowager Duchess of Norfolk was arrested and executed with her son's family.

 

[Zonk]

Are we talking about the same Dowager Duchess? According to Wikipedia, she was released.

Eventually, the Dowager Duchess was released in 1543, but her stepson, the Duke, was never returned to favour. She eventually died in 1545.

Agnes Howard, Duchess of Norfolk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[georgiea]

I might have gotten that misinformation from one of the Henry VIII movies I just saw or just forgotten the correct info. Thanks for keeping me on my toes Zonk.

 

[Zonk]

Not a problem Georgia...I thought I was mixing up my Dowager Duchesses

 

[Annastacia]

I really love Catherine of Aragon but I will say my favorite is Anne Boleyn, only because I'm related. Her father's sister is my grandmother a billion times removed. lol. She married Henry de Heydon, the man who built Baconsthorpe Castle. So, I guess that makes me Anne Boleyn's cousin....a billion times removed.

 

[Cadiva]

Has to be Anne Boleyn as she made her own way in what was very much a man's world and paid the ultimate sacrifice for her independence and free spirited nature.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

I don't think it was Anne's independence and free spirited nature which caused her to lose her life but becoming entangled in Henry's web to secure a male heir. When she failed at that, off came her head. That being said, Anne truly was one of a kind and without her, there would be no Church of England, etc.

 

[Cadiva]

I don't think it was Anne's independence and free spirited nature which caused her to lose her life but becoming entangled in Henry's web to secure a male heir. When she failed at that, off came her head. That being said, Anne truly was one of a kind and without her, there would be no Church of England, etc.

It's part and parcel of the same thing, if she hadn't been independent and free spirited she would have submitted meekly to Henry's wandering eye and just quietly got on with things

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Very true, she was a spirited woman!

 

[Zonk]

Anne definitely wasn't docile and she saw the writing on the wall in regards to how Henry treated his prior mistresses and wife really. I believe that he enjoyed the chase and Anne's personality.......of course when she didn't produce the son that he (and she) banked on....he fell into the docile arms of Jane.

But try as I might I cant get past the things that Anne did to Catherine and Mary. While I agree that it was a tragedy that Elizabeth grew up without her mother and that innocent men (Henry Norris, etc) died so Henry can get rid of Anne and get that important son, I just can't feel any pity for Anne. You reap what you sow.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Anne was spiteful and mean to Katherine and Mary but I thought most scholars believed her innocent of the treason charges and therefore she was executed on trumped up charges merely because she was an impediment to Henry's quest to produce an heir.

 

[Cadiva]

Anne definitely wasn't docile and she saw the writing on the wall in regards to how Henry treated his prior mistresses and wife really. I believe that he enjoyed the chase and Anne's personality.......of course when she didn't produce the son that he (and she) banked on....he fell into the docile arms of Jane.

But try as I might I cant get past the things that Anne did to Catherine and Mary. While I agree that it was a tragedy that Elizabeth grew up without her mother and that innocent men (Henry Norris, etc) died so Henry can get rid of Anne and get that important son, I just can't feel any pity for Anne. You reap what you sow.

How do we know what Anne behaved like towards Katherine and Mary other than through accounts left behind from historians whose bias is well known I certainly do not think Anne was an angel by any stretch of the imagination but the court of King Henry VIII was not a place for the feint hearted and I am sure she felt she had no other choice than to try and ensure her predecessor and her daughter were discredited as she was fighting to become Henry's legitimate wife.

 

[Zonk]

We can't have it both ways.

Most later day scholars (and a few early ones) believe that Anne was excuted on trumped up charges. How would they come up with that assertion unless they were relying on information from historians who were pro Henry?

I am basing my opinion on the Six Wives of Henry VIII by Alison Weir, I am trying to locate my copy (I hope I didn't lend it to my father) but two instances of Anne's behavior to Catherine and Mary. I would like to provide pages but again I can't find my book. Besides the fact Anne set up a rival court to Catherine and al the ladies started to spend their time with her and not Catherine. But that is petty in my mind, how about Anne demanding that Catherine give her the royal jewels associated with the Queen Consort, as she was Dowager Princess of Wales she didn't think Catherine deserved them. Catherine disobeyed this request, but Henry backed it up. Also, how about Anne demanding that Catherine send her a baptismal gown or christening outfit (I can't remember the specifics) for her unborn child, and it was only until it was pointed out that Catherine actually bought the item from Spain that Anne backed down. That's pretty tacky and mean spirited. I won't even get into her widely quoted comments about posioning Mary. I mean, you can have your issues with your lover's wife or so called wife, but his child, illegtimate or not, I think it was over the top.

For the record, a lot of the blame should go to Henry as well. Anne certainly wouldn't have treated Catherine and Mary in such a way if she feared Henry's reaction.

Now we can question Alison Weir's bookwriting skills or her research, but I count her as a well known and respected scholar.

 

[Cadiva]

We can't have it both ways.

Most later day scholars (and a few early ones) believe that Anne was excuted on trumped up charges. How would they come up with that assertion unless they were relying on information from historians who were pro Henry?

I am basing my opinion on the Six Wives of Henry VIII by Alison Weir, I am trying to locate my copy (I hope I didn't lend it to my father) but two instances of Anne's behavior to Catherine and Mary. I would like to provide pages but again I can't find my book. Besides the fact Anne set up a rival court to Catherine and al the ladies started to spend their time with her and not Catherine. But that is petty in my mind, how about Anne demanding that Catherine give her the royal jewels associated with the Queen Consort, as she was Dowager Princess of Wales she didn't think Catherine deserved them. Catherine disobeyed this request, but Henry backed it up. Also, how about Anne demanding that Catherine send her a baptismal gown or christening outfit (I can't remember the specifics) for her unborn child, and it was only until it was pointed out that Catherine actually bought the item from Spain that Anne backed down. That's pretty tacky and mean spirited. I won't even get into her widely quoted comments about posioning Mary. I mean, you can have your issues with your lover's wife or so called wife, but his child, illegtimate or not, I think it was over the top.

For the record, a lot of the blame should go to Henry as well. Anne certainly wouldn't have treated Catherine and Mary in such a way if she feared Henry's reaction.

Now we can question Alison Weir's bookwriting skills or her research, but I count her as a well known and respected scholar.

I'm not sure of the point you're making with regards to the charges being trumped up? I'd say that pretty much all historians, whether pro or anti Anne, agree that the charges of incest and treason were false but that doesn't negate the fact most accounts at the time were written by people hostile to Anne. I have Weir's book it and have read it. I think the first account you refer to of Anne setting up a rival court to Katherine is, again, not unexpected or unusual. She was Katherine's rival and she hoped to succeed her as legitimate Queen. Courtiers would flock to whoever they thought was going to have the most power and influence with Henry. The same thing happened to Anne when people realised Henry had focused his attention on Jane Seymour.


That Katherine shouldn't have the Crown Jewels is, again for me, a none brainer. She wasn't Queen anymore therefore why shouldn't Anne have them when she was crowned Queen? The Christening Gown I agree was petty though but as neither of us have ever lived in a Tudor Court we have no idea how we'd react in the same situation. This was very much a dog eat dog world and any sign of weakness would be pounced on and exploited. I also thought, but would have to go back and read again to check, that the poisoning claim against Mary was discredited?

You also have to accept that, at the time Anne was doing this, Henry was doing nothing to stop it and yet, towards the end of her time as Queen when his interest had completely gone, he thwarted her whenever he could. The real monster was Henry himself.

Have you read Eric Ives' The Life and Death of Anne Boleyn: the Most Happy? If not then I can highly recommend it for a completely different perspective of how the contemporary accounts of Anne's life and behaviour have been interpreted. There's a good review of it at The Telegraph here - Anne Boleyn was both a religious reformer and a femme fatale, says Diarmaid MacCulloch Her magnetism was her downfall - Telegraph