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View Poll Results: Who is your favourite of King Henry VIII's six wives?
Catherine of Aragon 95 33.10%
Anne Boleyn 99 34.49%
Jane Seymour 33 11.50%
Anne of Cleves 27 9.41%
Katherine Howard 10 3.48%
Catherine Parr 23 8.01%
Voters: 287. You may not vote on this poll

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  #181  
Old 08-20-2010, 06:39 PM
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I totally concur that Henry was the problem. Again, if Anne had done anything to Catherine and Mary that he didn't approve of he would have put a stop to it and yet he didn't. But this thread isn't about Henry its about his wives.

I totally get the issue of the the rival court, and I agree that people were hedging their bets and yes, the same was done to Anne with Jane Seymour, with Anne of Cleves with Catherine Howard. Only Catherine Howard's early execution stopped the same from happening to her. And well, some could argue that Henry's death saved Catherine Parr from the same fate as some of her predecessors.

And yes, the Tudor Court was dog eat dog world...but really some of things that Anne has been accused of and how she treated Catherine and her daughter were totally unnecessary. You already have the woman's husband, he wants to marry you what else is there to do to Catherine...its a little over kill IMO.

If Anne certainly didn't attend to poison Mary, perhaps she should have kept quiet about such rumours. And therefore people wouldn't have assumed that she did it. How sad is it to wish for the death of your lover/husbands child. If he can turn on her, he can certainly turn on you...and that is exactly what he did.

Like I said in an earlier post, I concur with most scholars that Anne was framed and executed because Henry wanted a clean break. Catherine was already dead, and if Anne was dead, there would no longer be the grey issues of who was married and wasn't and therefore who was legitimate. As we know, these issues of illegitimacy followed both daughters Mary and Elizabeth as they were not considered true legitimate Queens by both Catholic and Protestant factions.

So I stand by my assertion that you reap what you sow. Yes, Anne was most likely not guilty of what she was executed on but she was certainly guilty of what she did to Catherine and Mary. That is certainly not something to be executed over...but hey...you play nasty with the big dogs you have to expect to get bitten.
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  #182  
Old 08-20-2010, 06:49 PM
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I forgot to add that I will definitely try to get a copy of the book...and one has to wonder (and I say this before I read the book) if Anne was true to the ideals of the Reformation because she believed in it or because it helped her cause?

I mean, I recognized that she was essentially raised in the French court but she was a Howard, and the Howards were and still are recognized as Catholics. So how did she get there?
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  #183  
Old 08-21-2010, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
but really some of things that Anne has been accused of
But this is the salient point isn't it - what she was "accused" of. Which goes back to my earlier comment about the fact the majority of things written about Anne were written from a completely hostile point of view :)

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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
I forgot to add that I will definitely try to get a copy of the book...and one has to wonder (and I say this before I read the book) if Anne was true to the ideals of the Reformation because she believed in it or because it helped her cause?

I mean, I recognized that she was essentially raised in the French court but she was a Howard, and the Howards were and still are recognized as Catholics. So how did she get there?
I think that while the idea of Henry as Head of the English Church, and therefore capable of doing what he liked re divorcing Katherine, most definitely helped Anne's cause, that she was still a true believer in the Reformist Movement.
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  #184  
Old 08-22-2010, 03:42 PM
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Certainly there were a lot of things that Anne were accused of that were just ridiculous some examples include being a witch, the extra finger on her hand, seducing Henry with her French ways that were just plain ludicrous.

Anne was accused of incest and adultery and most modern scholars are of the belief that these were trumped up charges and she was innocent. They are basing their beliefs on information provided by writings that were produced during the lifetime of Henry VIII. Surely they wouldn't have come up to that conclusion if ALL the information during this time was hostile. Somebody had to write that stuff in order for just ONE person to say that she was framed. And that is my point.

Anne was accused of being nasty towards Catherine and Mary, again using the same information. Anne, also at the time of her death attempted to reconcile with Mary (or at least wrote her a letter of apology) recognizing that some of the things she did towards Mary were cruel. So can we use her words to justify the opinion of many that she was nasty towards Catherine and Mary?
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  #185  
Old 08-22-2010, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
So can we use her words to justify the opinion of many that she was nasty towards Catherine and Mary?
I haven't said that she wasn't though? What I said was that is wasn't really a great surprise how she behaved given the court she was in and the position she was in. I am sure she did ask for the Crown Jewels back as she believed Katherine should no longer have them. I am sure she probably did try and get the Christening Gown, again believing it was something belonging to the English Crown rather than being a personal possession of Katherine's.
I believe she was probably cruel in her treatment of Mary. However, again, this is entirely a product of her position. She was trying to ensure that her daughter, Elizabeth, was going to inherit in front of Mary :)

I don't believe for one minute that she had Katherine or Mary poisoned, only that she expressed a wish they would both be poisoned, again, an understandable outburst during a time of great pressure for her and, again in my opinion, nothing she could have got away with if Henry didn't allow her to.

After all, it is only when Henry tires of her as a jealous wife and sees the docile and meek Jane Seymour, a good Catholic girl, shoved in his path that the things which attracted him to Anne - her firey temper, her willingness to cross and disobey him etc - are then turned against her.
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  #186  
Old 09-01-2010, 04:42 PM
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Anne forced a sick and demoralized young Mary to attend the newborn Princess Elizabeth AS A SERVANT. The girl had already been separated from her mother-whom she would never see alive again- and denied the company of her father(these were Henry VIII's decisions, but he was definitely goaded and encouraged by Anne)

Anne instructed Elizabeth's governess to "beat her(Mary's) head till it was soft as a baked apple", almost her exact words. She hinted that she would like to have seen the girl poisoned, and probably would have had it done herself if she felt the King would not retaliate. She assigned Mary to sleep in servant's quarters.

Mary-a grand-daughter of the great Warrior Queen Isabella-finally had her spirit broken under this terrible abuse and remained psychologically scarred for life. Is it any wonder that she became hard and embittered as an adult?

All this while Anne Boleyn was riding high as Henry VIII's great passion..but she did indeed reap a very bitter harvest.

Karma at it's best.
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  #187  
Old 09-29-2010, 03:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Avalon View Post
My favourite would be Anne Boleyn. Anne is often called the most influential Queen Consort in British History, and not without reasons.
I see her as strong-willed, smart woman. Elizabeth was a good mixture of her father, and mother.

I don't have anything against Catherine of Aragon, and I quite like her. If she were the heir to Isabella I, not Joana, I think we would have another great Queen.

Jane Seymour is probably my least-favourite. She just doesn't have a 'face' for me - pale, uninteresting, always doing what others told her.

Of other wives, I like Anne of Cleves, she'd probably be an excellent wife for some Duke or Prince, but definitely not Henry. There is no straight opinion for Katherine Howard - I pity but don't like her. Catherine Parr is probably my second favourite after Anne Boleyn, even ahead of Catherine of Aragon.
Ditto with that
she was mother of Elizabath I
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  #188  
Old 09-29-2010, 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Anne forced a sick and demoralized young Mary to attend the newborn Princess Elizabeth AS A SERVANT. The girl had already been separated from her mother-whom she would never see alive again- and denied the company of her father(these were Henry VIII's decisions, but he was definitely goaded and encouraged by Anne)

Anne instructed Elizabeth's governess to "beat her(Mary's) head till it was soft as a baked apple", almost her exact words. She hinted that she would like to have seen the girl poisoned, and probably would have had it done herself if she felt the King would not retaliate. She assigned Mary to sleep in servant's quarters.

Mary-a grand-daughter of the great Warrior Queen Isabella-finally had her spirit broken under this terrible abuse and remained psychologically scarred for life. Is it any wonder that she became hard and embittered as an adult?

All this while Anne Boleyn was riding high as Henry VIII's great passion..but she did indeed reap a very bitter harvest.

Karma at it's best.

Can you please give the references for this abuse?
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  #189  
Old 09-29-2010, 06:21 AM
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This information as provided in Allison's Weir's book, The Six Wivs of Henry VIII.

P. 271

Mary refused to take the Oath (which acknowledge Henry and Anne's children as heirs). Lady Shelton who was present, shook the girl violently in front of the Earl of Wilshire, who had been sent to administer the oath. "If I were the king," she cried, " I would kick you out of the house! I would make you loser your head!" But Mary stood firm,and when Anne heard what had ahppened, she wrote suggesting Lady Shelton administer 'a good banging' to 'cursed bastard.'

Lady Shelton was Anne's cousin. And of course, the Earl of Wilshire was her father Thomas Bolyen.
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  #190  
Old 09-29-2010, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
This information as provided in Allison's Weir's book, The Six Wivs of Henry VIII.

P. 271

Mary refused to take the Oath (which acknowledge Henry and Anne's children as heirs). Lady Shelton who was present, shook the girl violently in front of the Earl of Wilshire, who had been sent to administer the oath. "If I were the king," she cried, " I would kick you out of the house! I would make you loser your head!" But Mary stood firm,and when Anne heard what had ahppened, she wrote suggesting Lady Shelton administer 'a good banging' to 'cursed bastard.'

Lady Shelton was Anne's cousin. And of course, the Earl of Wilshire was her father Thomas Bolyen.
Does Weir say where she got the information? I am actually looking for the primary source not the secondary ones.
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  #191  
Old 09-29-2010, 11:08 AM
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The problem with Weir's bibliography is that she doesn't use footnotes, if that makes sense.

She cites as her sources:

Info on Mary's early life: The Lady Mary by Milton Waldman and Bloody Mary by Carolly Erickson.

In regards to Anne, this is Chapter 10 in the book: she references: Chapuys, Calendar of Letters and Papers, Foreign and Domestic, of the Reign of Henry VIII (it has 21 volumes); The Chronicle of Henry VIII (also known as the Spanish Calendar). State papers of Henry VIII: published under the authority of Her Majesty's Commission (11 volumes). The chapter bibliography says that the Lady Mary's obstinacy is noted from the State Papers.
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  #192  
Old 09-30-2010, 05:45 PM
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i think all of henry's wives were interesting in their own ways but i would have to say anne of cleves was probably the smartest. she knew henry's patterns when he didn't get something he wanted. so she went along with him, recieved 3 castles and a big allowance to boot--along with her independence. she led a full life without a man telling her what to do--i think henry later regretted dumping her and they became friends. anne boleyn is probably my all around favorite and she definitely did not get what she deserved! women were just breeders for henry, plain and simple. i can understand why it was so important for him to have a son but he didn't have to be such a bastard to his wives. just think how very different english history would have been if one of his sons from katherine of aragon had lived! "the tudors" is my all-time favorite series ever even tho they changed some of the facts. i think all the actors were superb and i believe natalie dormer was a perfect anne boleyn. jrm was a great henry also although they could have made him a bit fatter at the end. i've about worn out my dvd's. i think season 3 and 4 stuck more to the facts than season 1 and 2. it was still an awesome series
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  #193  
Old 09-30-2010, 09:47 PM
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Welcome to the forums, kbear87. I think Anne of Cleves is an example of one who had her cake and ate it too! She came out ahead, kept her head on her shoulders and gained the friendship of the King and the royal family.
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  #194  
Old 09-30-2010, 10:19 PM
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Welcome to the Forums...kbear87!

Anne of Cleves was definitely the smartest of the lot...keep the prestige of being the King Sister, money, her elated position, her HEAD and didn't have to deal with Henry on the regular.

I disagree with Anne somewhat. She was a victim to a point (should have been allowed to marry Harry Percy) but she wasn't nice in general. She definitely didn't deserve to be framed. But I am more upset (if I can be for something that happened over 400 years ago) for the innocent men who died with her because Henry wanted to get rid of her.
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  #195  
Old 10-01-2010, 06:42 AM
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this question is a bit off topic but do you think anne of cleves slept with henry after he dumped her? would she have risked having a baby out of wedlock? can you imagine if she had a boy?? henry would have a fit, lol! and thanks for the welcome!
i do agree that anne b was very ambitious but her father basically pimped out her and her sister and they had to obey, right? along with her uncle also..
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  #196  
Old 10-01-2010, 01:30 PM
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I doubt if she slept with Henry because contemporary accounts said he was dismayed at her appearance and probably felt no sexual desire for Anne.
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  #197  
Old 10-01-2010, 01:56 PM
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Yes, I don't believe that she slept with Henry although he was supposedly "charmed" by her changes after he married Katharine Howard.

I beleve the Duke of Cleves did try to push for a remarriage after Katharine's death. Lucky for Anne that it was a no go from Henry's side.
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  #198  
Old 10-01-2010, 03:03 PM
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I never saw this thread. Very interesting comments. My favorite has always been Catherine of Aragon. I think I first watched the 6 wives of Henry the 8th when I was 9. I was struck by the actress's portrayal of the queen's fidelty and strength. I have read many books about her over the years.
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  #199  
Old 10-01-2010, 09:24 PM
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i liked katherine of aragon also but i think her life would have turned out much better if she would just have given henry the divorce or anullment. i know it would have been very difficult for her to swallow her pride but she would have had her choice of castles with a big allowance and been able to see mary. she died in poverty, unable to even visit her only child. maybe she didn't think henry would banish her--that he would change his mind? it's really sad the way she lived her last few years....she surely didn't deserve the treatment she got!
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  #200  
Old 10-04-2010, 08:53 PM
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Please note that all posts regarding Mary, daughter of Henry VIII and Catharine of Aragon have been moved to http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...a-22614-2.html .
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