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  #101  
Old 11-03-2010, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by HM Queen Catherine View Post
Joan Beaufort, 2nd daughter of the Duke of Somerset, married Robert St. Lawrence, 3rd Baron Howth, circa 1478. Their children were - Nicholas, 4th Baron Howth; Thomas; Walter; Christopher and daughters Genet and Anne.

Robert St. Lawrence died between 1483-1485, and Joan later married Sir Richard Fry.

The Barony of Howth was an Irish peerage, created for Robert's grandfather, Christopher St. Lawrence, in 1425. Robert's father was also Christopher St. Lawrence, 2nd Baron, who married Elizabeth Bermingham of Athenry. She was his mother.

Nicholas St. Lawrence, 4th Baron Howth, was married 3 times and had children by each of his wives.
Thank you for that, but I don't know how that will help now as she has blocked me from her tree and she sent me the nastiest message I have ever gotten. Bottom line is the information she had for Joan Beaufort's ancestors was incorrect which can throw everyone off -- whatever.. there seems to be quite a few Joan Beaufort's from back then. Thank you again.. I will pass this on to a friend who is investigating it as well.
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  #102  
Old 11-19-2010, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Carminha Stalker View Post
The Plantagenets always fascinated me and this fascination started by reading a book about Katherine Swynford, who was the second wife of the great Duke of Lancaster. I fell in love, instantly, and was very pleased to know that one of the Duke of Lancaster´s daughters.`Philippa, was Queen of Portugal and ancestor to the great Hernry the Navigator.
I also admired a lot Henry V. What a life and what a man!
Katherine was John of Gaunt's third wife, actually, He married Blanche of Lancaster first, then Costanzia (sp?) or Constance of Castile, and then Katherine de Roet (maiden name), who had been his mistress for many years and had children by him who were retroactively legitimated. Their daughter Joan Beaufort is the one who married a Neville. I read that John of Gaunt has an incredible number of descendants now, aside from the current royal family, which must be true, because I'm one, and I don't come from a family that is special in any way!
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  #103  
Old 11-19-2010, 10:24 PM
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A great many of John of Gaunt's descendants come from his daughter Joan Beaufort.

Her first husband was Robert de Ferrers, Baron Ferrers of Oversley. They were married circa 1391 and had two daughters.

The first daughter was Elizabeth, born in 1393. She married John de Greystoke in 1407. He was the 4th Baron Greystoke and together they appear to have had 12 named children. Elizabeth died in 1434, aged 41 yrs.

The second daughter was Mary, born in 1394. She married Sir Ralph de Neville circa 1415. Her husband was also her step-brother. He was the son of Ralph de Neville, 1st Earl of Westmorland, and his first wife Margaret. This couple had at least 2 documented children. Mary died in 1457.

Lord Ferrers died the year after Mary was born, circa 1395. His widow married the 1st Earl of Westmorland in 1397.

During her 28 year marriage to Ralph Neville, Joan Beaufort gave birth to 14 named children..

Their Daughters

Katherine Neville, married de Mowbray and became the Duchess of Norfolk. She was married 4 times and had issue with de Mowbray and her 2nd husband Thomas Strangeways. The two Strangeways daughters also became countesses. Her infamous last marriage was to John Woodville, brother of Queen Elizabeth and the consort of her nephew, King Edward IV. John Woodville was 47 years younger than Katherine when they married in 1465. He was beheaded in 1469.

Eleanor Neville, married Percy and became the Countess of Northumberland. She was the mother of the 3rd Earl, the 1st Baron Egremont, the Countess of Kent and a couple of other children.

Joan Neville was given to the church and became a nun.

Anne Neville, married Stafford and became the Duchess of Buckingham. She was the mother of the Earl of Wiltshire, the Earl of Stafford, the Countess of Shrewsbury, the Viscountess Beaumont and the Lady Cobham, among other children.

Cecily Neville, married Plantagenet and became the Duchess of York. She was the mother of King Edward IV, King Richard III, the Duchess of Exeter, the Earl of Rutland, the Duchess of Suffolk, the Duchess of Burgundy and the Duke of Clarence. Her other named children died young.

Their Sons

Richard Neville, married Alice de Montacute, sole heiress of the Earl of Salisbury. He became the Earl of Salisbury in right of his wife in 1428. He was the father of the Duchess of Warwick, the Earl of Salisbury, the Marquess of Montague, the Archbishop of York, the Countess of Arundel, the Lady Hastings, the Countess of Oxford, the Lady Stanley and the Lady FitzHugh.

William Neville, created Earl of Kent. He married but only had two surviving daughters. His peerage became extinct on his death.

Edward Neville, married Elizabeth Beauchamp, sole heiress of the Baron Bergavenny and became Lord Bergavenny in right of his wife. He also married Katherine Howard, granddaughter of the Duke of Norfolk. He was the father of the 4th Baron Bergavenny among other children.

George Neville, married another Elizabeth Beauchamp and was created 1st Baron Neville of Latimer. His grandson Richard succeeded him.

Robert Neville, became the Bishop of Durham and then the Bishop of Salisbury.

Henry, Cuthbert, John and Thomas Neville seemed to have died young or unmarried.

And the names highlighted in red are all my direct ancestors.

Each of the girls (Eleanor, Anne and Cecily) are separately my 16th great grandmothers - and each of the boys (Richard and Edward) are separately my 16th great grandfathers!
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  #104  
Old 12-15-2010, 05:26 PM
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A little inbreeding there?

I am descended from Dionice Neville, one of the daughters of William Neville. So you and I (and countless other people!) are distant cousins.
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  #105  
Old 12-19-2010, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by AnnEliza View Post
A little inbreeding there?

I am descended from Dionice Neville, one of the daughters of William Neville. So you and I (and countless other people!) are distant cousins.
Are you talking about the 1st Earl of Kent, William Neville? Please don't tell me you are a user of ancestry.com -- oh boy. This is the list of children he had.. there is NO Dionice Neville.
Children of William de Neville, 1st and last Earl of Kent and Joan Fauconberge, Baroness Fauconberge

  • Sir Thomas Faucomberge2 d. 22 Sep 1471
  • Anthony Neville, Lord Grey d. c 1480
  • Lady Alice Neville+3
  • Lady Elizabeth Neville+4
  • Lady Joan Neville4
You can find this information in Charles Mosley's Burke's Peerage, 106th Edition; Cokayne The Complete Peerage of England; Pine's The New Extinct Peerage; and Alison Weir's, Britain's Royal Family: A Complete Genealogy
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  #106  
Old 12-20-2010, 05:58 AM
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Meg is right. The woman that Thomas Brocket married was Dionice Sampson. And while she was an heiress, she was not a Neville - nor was she related to William, Earl of Kent.

Dr. Adrian Brockett has done extensive and meticulous research on this family. Here is the link to his work:
Brockett Family of England
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  #107  
Old 12-20-2010, 07:30 PM
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Oh, well, there goes my claim to royal blood. Easy come, easy go.
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  #108  
Old 02-28-2011, 05:53 PM
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I am interested in knowing more about my ancestress Joan of Acre and her line. There are a number of Beauchamps on my ancestral line, too.

But, several different sources connect Sir Robert Savage (my ancestor) up to Joan, and I would like to disentangle that section of our family genealogy.

Does the term "fitz" mean "son of"? I read just this morning that in Normandy it was used to indicate an illegitimate son (borrowed from the Gaelic??) Has anyone heard that before?

All the way down through the 14th century, many of my ancestors (dwelling in England) still retained French names. As I follow those persons back towards the Norman conquest, it seems many of them were in William's various armies and granted land in England (just as he promised when they signed on).

Is there any particular reference work on William I's creation of peerages?
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  #109  
Old 03-08-2011, 10:46 PM
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I do not know which Sir Robert Savage you refer too, but if you have approximate dates I may be able to help you with that.

Joan of Acre was twice married. Her first husband was Gilbert de Clare, 6th Earl of Hertford. They were married on 20 April 1290 in Westminster Abbey. Gilbert and Joan had four surviving children - Gilbert, Eleanor, Elizabeth and Margaret. The Earl of Hertford died in 1295, eight months after their 5th anniversary.

In January 1297, Joan married a knight of her household, Sir Ralph de Monthermer. He was later made 1st Baron Monthermer and was allowed the use of the titles Earl of Hertford and Earl of Gloucester while his wife was alive. Two years after her death, he was created a baron.

Ralph de Monthermer was married again after Joan died, to Isabel le Despencer - the sister-in-law of his eldest step-daughter Eleanor de Clare.

Joan and Ralph had five children in the ten years they were married - Mary, Joan, Thomas, Edmund (or Edward) and an infant who did not survive. Joan and the baby died on 7 April 1307 and were buried together on 23 April 1307.

Of Joan's surviving children:

Gilbert de Clare, 7th Earl of Hertford, died without issue at the age of 23. He was killed at the Battle of Bannockburn in Scotland. Gilbert was married to Matilda de Burgh, daughter of the Earl of Ulster in 1308, but they had no children. After his death, his estate was divided between his three sisters.

Eleanor de Clare was twice married. First to Hugh IV le Despencer, Baron Despencer in 1306, and second to William la Zouche, 1st Baron Zouche of Mortimer in 1327. She had eight Despencer children and one daughter with la Zouche. None of her daughters married a Savage that I know of.

Elizabeth de Clare was married three times. First to John de Burgh, a younger son of the Earl of Ulster in 1308, then to Theobald de Verdon, 2nd Baron Verdon in 1315, and lastly to Sir Roger d'Amory in 1317. She had one surviving child with each husband - William de Burgh, 3rd Earl of Ulster; Isabel de Verdon, Lady Ferrers de Groby; and Elizabeth d'Amory, Lady Bardolf. Neither of her daughters married a Savage either to my knowledge.

Margaret de Clare was also married twice. First to the infamous Piers Gaveston, 1st Earl of Cornwall in 1307, and secondly to Hugh de Audley, 1st Earl of Gloucester in 1317. She had one daughter Joan Gaveston, who died at age 12, and one daughter Margaret de Audley, who became Countess of Stafford and also inherited her father's barony of Audley.

Mary de Monthermer married Duncan MacDuff, 8th Mormaer of Fife, and had one surviving daughter Isabella, who became the Countess of Fife on the death of her father. Isabella was married four times - to Sir William Felton, to Walter Stewart, to Sir Thomas Byset and to John de Dunbar. She had three known children with her first husband.

Joan de Monthermer was a nun in Amesbury Abbey, Wiltshire. She was born circa 1299, but I have no death date for her.

Thomas de Monthermer, 2nd Baron Monthermer, married Margaret Teyes before 1329. He had one surviving daughter, named Margaret, who married Sir John de Montacute. She inherited her father's barony which merged with the earldom of Salisbury when her only son became earl in 1397.

Edmund or Edward de Monthermer was never married and died without legitimate issue in 1340. He spent his life in the service of his half-sister Elizabeth de Clare, who cared for him during his last illness and buried him next to their mother.
------------------------------------

The term "Fitz" does mean "son of" and it was used in England to indicate illegitimacy in the royal line - with names such as FitzRoy, for the only recognized illegitimate son of Henry VIII, and for the illegitimate children of Charles II with Barbara Villiers - or FitzClarence, for the illegitimate children of William IV with Dorothea Bland.

But other "Fitz" names in the nobility did not necessarily mean illegitimacy.. names like FitzHerbert, FitzAlan and FitzWarin evolved during the time when surnames were coming into common usage.

So sometimes it is difficult to tell whether a "Fitz" name marked illegitimacy or not, unless you know that particular family's history.
---------------------------------------

As to a reference work showing peerages created by William the Conqueror, the Doomsday Book is a good place to start. But as far as a reference exclusively for this purpose, I don't know of one per se.. Maybe someone here will be able to give you a definitive answer.
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  #110  
Old 03-15-2011, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Meg

Thank you for that, but I don't know how that will help now as she has blocked me from her tree and she sent me the nastiest message I have ever gotten. Bottom line is the information she had for Joan Beaufort's ancestors was incorrect which can throw everyone off -- whatever.. there seems to be quite a few Joan Beaufort's from back then. Thank you again.. I will pass this on to a friend who is investigating it as well.
Lady Meg please don't let this rude and obviously insecure
Person trouble you! People have 'discovered' genealogy and everyone wants to be noble! And they don't do their homework which you obviously do. I am new to this thread but am enthralled!
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  #111  
Old 07-07-2011, 01:02 AM
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Wow loving this thread - I am reading The White Queen and am wondering if during the medieval times there was more than one Royal named as a Witch, (when Christianity came in), I find the whole paganism & history of these well recorded families absolutely fascinating, Thanks for the education - I'm sure I will be awake reading for ages tonight!
xoxos
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  #112  
Old 07-10-2011, 03:42 AM
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Some time ago I read an article that Edward IV was possibly illegitimate ,since his father,wasn't probably present in the country by the time of his conception.Could it be true?
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  #113  
Old 08-22-2011, 12:12 AM
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I first fell in love with the Plantagenet dynasty when I first read "Katherine" by Anya Seton back when I was a teenager and basically from then on read everything I could get my hands on about that dysfunctional royal family, including Sharon Kaye Penman's novels. I also read about the rumor of Edward IV's illegitimacy resulting from his mother's supposed affair with an English archer while her husband was hundreds of miles away fighting. This story was reportedly circulated during Edward's reign by his conniving brother, George, Duke of Clarence, who was scheming to get his hands on the throne and sought to overturn his brother's claim by spreading stories of his illegitimacy. Because George was plotting against Edward with the help of the Earl of Warwick, not only with his inciting these rumors but also because he discovered Edward's alleged pre-contract with Eleanor Butler, making his marriage to Elizabeth Woodville invalid and his children illegitimate as well, he got tossed in the Tower and supposedly met his fate with the butt of malmsey. What makes this doubly fascinating is the alternate royal line descending from George's children, if indeed this claim was true and George was the rightful king of England. With the alternate line, the Queen would be not the rightful ruler but actually the Earl of Loudon who currently lives today in Australia and is a Republican. There's a very entertaining program that explores this theory, called "Britain's Real Monarch," that you can watch on YouTube. This story may not have any credence, but it's one of those "what ifs" in this dynasty that I find so ultimately compelling.
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  #114  
Old 08-22-2011, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by shari-aree View Post
Wow loving this thread - I am reading The White Queen and am wondering if during the medieval times there was more than one Royal named as a Witch, (when Christianity came in), I find the whole paganism & history of these well recorded families absolutely fascinating, Thanks for the education - I'm sure I will be awake reading for ages tonight!
xoxos
Hope you've read "The Red Queen," about Margaret Tudor, and Philippa Gregory's upcoming novel in The Cousins' War series, "The Lady of the River." This is about Jacquetta, Duchess of Bedford, Elizabeth Woodville's mother. She was rumored to be a witch as well.
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  #115  
Old 08-22-2011, 12:57 AM
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Great suggestions, everyone. The Sharon Penman novels are magnificent (reading them for a second time) and anything else on Plantagenets I can get.
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  #116  
Old 08-22-2011, 10:20 PM
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For anyone who's interested, Jean Plaidy wrote a fiction series years ago on the entire Plantagenet dynasty from Henry I to Elizabeth of York which, if you haven't read and it's still in print, you should try to get. She's a very good author. Also, for those interested in Eleanor of Aquitaine, there's "The Secret Eleanor" by Cecilia Holland which deals with the fictional relationship between Eleanor and her sister, Petronilla. I'm currently reading "To Be Queen," by Christy English, another fictional novel of Eleanor. Lastly, there's a novel out by Anne Easter Smith, "Queen by Right," about Cecily Neville, mother of Edward IV. I haven't read it yet, but have it reserved at my library and I'm looking forward to this because I love reading about Proud Cis, the Rose of Raby. Hope these reading tips help!

ETA: For Sharon Kay Penman's fans, her latest novel about Richard III, "Lionheart," will be published shortly.
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  #117  
Old 08-23-2011, 12:23 AM
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A fantastic read for those of you interested in Richard III is the book of that title by Paul Murray Kendall. It is extremely dense with detail, but the final result of the author's meticulous research is both a very rich description of the man, and also his time period. Although, as has been stated here, no one can know for sure the true answer to the mystery of the boys in the Tower, you are very equipped to make a judgement by the conclusion of the book!

This is a great thread, I am so impressed by the handle you all have on this time period--very neat!
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  #118  
Old 08-24-2011, 12:21 AM
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Perhaps Elizabeth Woodville was a forerunner of the modern financial planner?

:)
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  #119  
Old 08-24-2011, 05:16 PM
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Perhaps Elizabeth Woodville was a forerunner of the modern financial planner?

:)

And a medieval practitioner of nepotism at her best!


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  #120  
Old 09-12-2011, 10:24 PM
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A new book has been published by Philippa Gregory in collaboration with two historians called, "The Women of the Cousins' War." This is a non-fiction book based on the lives of the three major female protagonists in the War of the Roses - the Duchess of Bedford, Elizabeth Woodville and Margaret Beaufort. I would have thought that Margaret of Anjou, King Henry VI's wife, would have also been included but no doubt she merits a book of her own! Anyway, I'm reading it now so thought other devotees of this time period might be interested.
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