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  #81  
Old 04-28-2008, 10:51 AM
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margaret of anjou, wife of Henry VI
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  #82  
Old 05-19-2008, 01:56 PM
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There are many descendants of John of Gaunt in Portugal because his daughter Phillippa (Filipa) married King John I of Portugal, one of their sons was Henry the Navigator. The descendants have kept on the name of Lancaster which they now spell as Lencastre, Lancastre or Alencastre.
From Portuguese history we learn that she was a very highly educated woman and made sure that her children had the very best education that was possible at that time.
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  #83  
Old 05-28-2008, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Ithil View Post
That's a nice pic of Margaret of Anjou.
Thanks ! Ithil ... here is another artist's depiction of Queen Margaret

Margaret of Anjou, Queen of Henry VI
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  #84  
Old 06-05-2009, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by tiaraprin View Post
Edward III didn't step in. He was old and increasingly feeble at this time having lost his wife, his eldest son (the Black Prince), and elder grandson who was the heir apparent (eldest son to the Black Prince). He was also enamoured of a greedy mistress, Alice Perrers. She only wanted power and money. When Edward III died in 1377, she pried the gold rings from his hands before she left with the rest of her accumulated fortune.
Unfortunately, I think Alice Perrers is unjustly vilified in history. By all accounts, she was superbly intelligent, resourceful and gained great wealth through her own business acumen. She controlled over 56 manors around London, but only 15 of those were gifts from the King.

She was deprived of all her estates after Edward's death, and banished from England in 1377. She was eventually able to return, however, and gained back some of her lands.

Not saying she wasn't greedy, but her wealth, although facilitated by her relationship with the King, was mostly of her own making. She didn't wait around to have gifts bestowed upon her. She was an astute businesswoman in her own right.. Quite a feat for a woman in the 14th century.
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  #85  
Old 07-31-2010, 01:22 AM
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Philippa of Hainault, a black Queen?

I was looking for some pictures of Philippa to put on a web page for Catherine Parr's ancestry -- I came across a few pages saying that Philippa was a black-british Queen. That her son's name as 'the black' somehow shows that she was black. What are they talking about; black as in African American? As for as I know Philippa was of European descent coming from Hainault, the Avesnes dynasty, the Counts of Holland, etc... is there any truth behind this as people are referring to her as the 1st Black British Queen?

100 Great Black Britons - Queen Phillipa
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  #86  
Old 08-01-2010, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Meg View Post
I was looking for some pictures of Philippa to put on a web page for Catherine Parr's ancestry -- I came across a few pages saying that Philippa was a black-british Queen. That her son's name as 'the black' somehow shows that she was black. What are they talking about; black as in African American? As for as I know Philippa was of European descent coming from Hainault, the Avesnes dynasty, the Counts of Holland, etc... is there any truth behind this as people are referring to her as the 1st Black British Queen?
No truth whatsoever.

There is no extant evidence that any of Philippa's ancestors came from Africa or were of African descent. The House of Avesnes were descendants of the ruling family of Flanders in the female line. The male line is a little more obscure, but the earliest confirmed ancestor was Jacques d'Avesnes, and his wife Adelheid of Guise.

Philippa's maternal descent was through the French royal family. Her mother was Joanna de Valois, a granddaughter of Philippe III of France and Isabella of Aragon. Joanna's family can be traced extensively and exclusively in Europe.

If there were any chance at all that African blood somehow or somewhere entered into Philippa's ancestry, it would show itself in other members of her family.. not just her.. through facial features and skin tone. There is, however, no mention or comment of it as far as I can tell, in extant descriptions of other members of her family.. and certainly if any such ancestry existed, it would have been commented upon by other contemporary sources of the time.

In addition to this, Edward of Woodstock was never called the "Black Prince" during his own lifetime. The first mention of this sobriquet in writing comes from "Chronicle of England", by Richard Grafton. His chronicle was published in 1568, centuries after Edward died.

The description given of Philippa on the link you posted is not sourced either. It only says the information came from the Black Cultural Archives, which is an organization in the UK dedicated to preserving Black/ African culture and ancestry in that country. The BCA was only established in 1981.. hardly long enough, in my opinion, to have thoroughly researched documents as far back as the Plantagenet dynasty in search of African lineage. The BCA offers no archives on their website.

Any physical description of Philippa of Hainault, given during her lifetime, would probably have been written in Latin, and if any credence is to be given to the posted description, then the original Latin text should appear with the English transcription, along with a citation for the original document and the repository in which it kept.

No accredited historian or genealogist would accept such a claim without documented proof.

This website also makes the African claim for Queen Charlotte, wife of George III, which has already been thoroughly debunked by Medieval genealogists.

On the other hand, every human being on Earth can technically claim African descent, since Africa is the cradle of humanity.. all of our species, Homo sapiens, originated in Africa.
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  #87  
Old 08-01-2010, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by HM Queen Catherine View Post
No truth whatsoever.
Forgive me for stepping in here. I may be way off base. And yes... we are all somehow related to "Lucy"

We are dealing here with history that spans back to um.. before internet.. before television.. before well.. you get the picture.

Is it unreal to think that perhaps Black was more of a descriptive nature than alluding to race? For example.. we had Eric the Red.. and the Bonny Prince Charlie and Edward the Confessor.. if you get my drift. With familial names being used a lot within families,perhaps there was the Gold and the Black.. to differentiate between a blond and a brunette with the same name? Surnames were not a common thing. Most were known as John son (or ap in Welsh for example) of William. Williamson would be an example of one of the first surnames to be used and to this day Johnson is a very widely used surname still.

To research someone from that time period that was known as Black, I'd really doubt the allegation was made to her being of an african descent and black skined. Its possible though... anything is.

You hear also of the "dark" Irish with sooty eyes. What that means really is they have a darker complexion and dark hair with blue or green eyes with full dark lashes to kill for.
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  #88  
Old 08-01-2010, 11:40 AM
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The question that was asked was whether or not there was any black (meaning African) descent for Philippa of Hainault, Queen Consort of England.

My answer was that there is not.. nor is there any evidence to support such a claim. Philippa was of European ancestry, which can be traced in her father's line to the early 12th century.. and in her mother's much earlier in time.

The link that was posted goes to a website that claims Philippa of Hainault had some sort of African lineage, based solely on a supposed contemporary description of her, for which no source citation is given.

However, one look at the website will make it obvious that the claim being made is that Philippa was somehow of African descent.

This website also claims African lineage for Queen Charlotte, wife of George III. Both claims are erroneous at best.. and blatant lies at worst.

I certainly wouldn't credit either claim.. and in Charlotte's case, the allegation has been disproved by reputable historians, who all regard this website with suspicion, since the authors have no obvious problem distorting facts to make their claims. In fact, it appears the site has not been updated since 2009.. it could now be a dead site. But they do let themselves off the hook with the following disclaimer - The content available is for general entertainment and interest only and its accuracy or completeness is not guaranteed. It is your responsibility to judge the accuracy or completeness of the content before relying on it in any way. So basically, they can make whatever claims they wish.. but that does not negate the fact that what they are claiming is false.

Philippa of Hainault was never known as Philippa the Black, either before or after her lifetime.. nor was her father. And her son Edward, now known to history as "the Black Prince", was Edward of Woodstock in his lifetime. He was not called the Black Prince until 1568.

I do understand what you mean, though, with regard to sobriquets being used before family names or surnames became the standard, but in this instance that was not what was meant..
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  #89  
Old 08-09-2010, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by HM Queen Catherine View Post
No truth whatsoever.
Wow -- I didn't realize they had debunked Queen Charlotte! With Philippa I know her back round, her genealogy, and it just mystified me as to where the African descent was coming from. It just surprised me because there are a few sites out there that have this information. It didn't make any sense and there is no way to contact them and tell them otherwise, unless I missed something that links to an email.

As for the 'black' prince... right.

I just thought this was a very strange 'theory' and thought people would be interested in debating, especially those who know where Philippa came from.

As for us all linking back to Africa, don't believe in evolution.
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  #90  
Old 08-18-2010, 01:12 AM
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BBC - Film to remember Battle of Crogen near Wrexham

"Battle of Crogen took place in 1165 near what is now known as Castle Mill in the Ceiriog Valley(Wales between King Henry II and the Welsh Princes)."
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  #91  
Old 08-20-2010, 06:08 PM
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The debate over the fate of the Princes in the Tower is unlikely to ever be solved. However, as more historians re-examine the evidence available surrounding Richard III's reign, there have been a few subtle changes in the way he is perceived.

The argument that Elizabeth of York wouldn't have married Henry Tudor if he had been the murderer of her brothers is a pretty disingenuous one, she didn't have any rights whatsoever and wouldn't have had any say in her marriage. It's entirely possible that she was well aware he had removed them so that he could consolidate his position on the throne through marriage to her. Elizabeth of York had to be legitimate for Henry's argument that he was uniting both sides of the Plantagenet Dynasty. However, IF she was legitimate, so were the two Princes and that put him right up the proverbial creek.

If the argument that Elizabeth knew however, is allowed, then a similar argument must also be allowed to apply to Richard III - ie that Elizabeth Woodville, mother of the Princes, happily moved back to Court and appeared to have a cordial relationship with Richard and brought her remaining children out of Sanctuary. Would she have done this knowing Richard III had killed her two sons given the fact she could safely have remained under Westminster Abbey's protection indefinitely?

Then there is the argument for the Duke of Buckingham, himself a legitimate claimant of the throne. It certainly wasn't beyond the realms of possibility that Stafford could have become King despite his descent through the sons of younger daughters of Kings. The 1400s were a time of great upheaval not only politically but in terms of life expectancy due to health reasons. With Edward IV's two sons illegitimate and Richard III's only legitimate offspring Edward of Middleham a weak and unhealthy child, Buckingham's claim was greater than that of Henry Tudor in terms of primogeniture as when John of Gaunt's children were legitimised when he married Kathryn Swynford, they were disbarred from claiming the throne.

However, speculation is all we can do, history is written in the words of the victors
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  #92  
Old 08-20-2010, 06:15 PM
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Cadiva,

I think it is more likely that Henry VII killed the young princes. Read the discussion on this link.
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...a-25536-2.html
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  #93  
Old 08-21-2010, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos View Post
Cadiva,

I think it is more likely that Henry VII killed the young princes. Read the discussion on this link.
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...a-25536-2.html
Thanks for that, will go read it :) My own personal viewpoint is that Edward V was more likely to have been murdered (or that he died of natural causes while in the Tower as he was being regularly visited by his doctor) but that Richard of York did escape and was brought up in secret away from the court. I don't believe, however, that he was Perkin Warbeck.
As to who was responsible for Edward's death, I'd like to drop Henry in the frame for it, but I think Buckingham has just as good a chance to do it, either on his own initiative or because he thought Richard would want it doing.
The only thing I do not believe is that Richard ordered it done specifically. It would have gone against everything he had previously lived his life by - his loyalty to his brother.
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  #94  
Old 10-06-2010, 03:57 PM
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Hi folks,

I have an opinion question about the Plantagenets. I've heard a couple of theories as to why Richard II lost his throne . . . what do you think?
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  #95  
Old 10-06-2010, 11:23 PM
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Do you think he suffered from schizophrenia as some historians have thought? Or some other mental disorder?
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  #96  
Old 10-19-2010, 12:44 PM
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Hadn't heard that yet, actually. I think one of the factors was the fact that he got so much money that the nobility couldn't control him by cutting his allowance.
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  #97  
Old 11-03-2010, 01:31 AM
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Exclamation Lady Joan Beaufort

Once again.. I have found on ancestry.com that someone was coming up with this delusional story that a certain person had been married to a 'royal' and had children. Can someone help me with this one? This lady basically threatened me and called me insane when I called her out on it. Did Joan Beaufort, daughter of John of Gaunt and Katherine Swynford marry a man with the last name Lawrence and have children?! Please tell me I am not the crazy one here as she already hurt my feelings by basically cussing me out and threatening me. The only reason I said anything was after finding a picture of Joanna 'the mad', sister of Katherine of Aragon attached to Katherine Swynford and being called Katherine Swynford on her page. I then looked into her genealogy and found that it was off... VERY off. I am pretty sure that Lady Joan only married and had children with two people, Sir Ralph Neville and a Robert Ferrers, correct? I have looked everywhere for this story that she married a surname of Lawrence and had issue and it is not recorded ANYWHERE! It's not even on wiki of all places!
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Old 11-03-2010, 01:59 AM
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Re: Lady Joan Beaufort

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Originally Posted by Lady Meg View Post
Once again.. I have found on ancestry.com that someone was coming up with this delusional story that a certain person had been married to a 'royal' and had children. Can someone help me with this one? This lady basically threatened me and called me insane when I called her out on it. Did Joan Beaufort, daughter of John of Gaunt and Katherine Swynford marry a man with the last name Lawrence and have children?! Please tell me I am not the crazy one here as she already hurt my feelings by basically cussing me out and threatening me. The only reason I said anything was after finding a picture of Joanna 'the mad', sister of Katherine of Aragon attached to Katherine Swynford and being called Katherine Swynford on her page. I then looked into her genealogy and found that it was off... VERY off. I am pretty sure that Lady Joan only married and had children with two people, Sir Ralph Neville and a Robert Ferrers, correct? I have looked everywhere for this story that she married a surname of Lawrence and had issue and it is not recorded ANYWHERE! It's not even on wiki of all places!
Nevermind, I found the answer to my own question after looking.. she was talking about a completely different Joan Beaufort(d.1518), the daughter of Sir Edmund, 1st Duke of Somerset and Elizabeth Beauchamp -- who did marry a Sir Robert Lawrence.. as I cannot see her tree now as she blocked me.. I gave her the link to realize her mistake.. I have no idea who she has after as children.. but found an entry in Burke as they did have children, but the Barony was passed up to brothers twice in the succession. I don't see anyone coming to America though.. unless someone knows something about this that I don't? I only know what I read in books and well documented articles. And she had the nerve to call me insane and threaten to call the cops, right.. I basically do this stuff for a living now. Thing is she had her under John of Gaunt and Katherine Swynford -- with the dates in the 1300s.. so it was incorrect!
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Old 11-03-2010, 02:30 AM
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Nevermind, I found the answer to my own question after looking.. she was talking about a completely different Joan Beaufort(d.1518), the daughter of Sir Edmund, 1st Duke of Somerset and Elizabeth Beauchamp -- who did marry a Sir Robert Lawrence.. as I cannot see her tree now as she blocked me.. I gave her the link to realize her mistake.. I have no idea who she has after as children.. but found an entry in Burke as they did have children, but the Barony was passed up to brothers twice in the succession. I don't see anyone coming to America though.. unless someone knows something about this that I don't? I only know what I read in books and well documented articles. And she had the nerve to call me insane and threaten to call the cops, right.. I basically do this stuff for a living now. Thing is she had her under John of Gaunt and Katherine Swynford -- with the dates in the 1300s.. so it was incorrect!
Joan Beaufort, 2nd daughter of the Duke of Somerset, married Robert St. Lawrence, 3rd Baron Howth, circa 1478. Their children were - Nicholas, 4th Baron Howth; Thomas; Walter; Christopher and daughters Genet and Anne.

Robert St. Lawrence died between 1483-1485, and Joan later married Sir Richard Fry.

The Barony of Howth was an Irish peerage, created for Robert's grandfather, Christopher St. Lawrence, in 1425. Robert's father was also Christopher St. Lawrence, 2nd Baron, who married Elizabeth Bermingham of Athenry. She was his mother.

Nicholas St. Lawrence, 4th Baron Howth, was married 3 times and had children by each of his wives.
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Old 11-03-2010, 06:13 AM
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The Plantagenets always fascinated me and this fascination started by reading a book about Katherine Swynford, who was the second wife of the great Duke of Lancaster. I fell in love, instantly, and was very pleased to know that one of the Duke of Lancaster´s daughters.`Philippa, was Queen of Portugal and ancestor to the great Hernry the Navigator.
I also admired a lot Henry V. What a life and what a man!
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