The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > British Royals > British Royal History

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #161  
Old 02-11-2013, 02:32 AM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Just an odd thought. Wouldn't it be possible to inter some of Richard III's remains in both places? I know its been done before (my father-in-law, a Presbyterian minister) where a person has close ties to several places and the remains are interred in more than one place. Come to think of it, I believe that relics of several saints have had the same thing done at various cathedrals and churches.
Actually, that's not a bad idea at all. The custom of separate burials of different parts of body or organs for Royals is actually quite old.
For instance, the body of King John was buried in Worcester Cathedral but his heart was buried in the Royal Abbey of Fontevraud (where his parents, brother and second wife - or different body parts of theirs - were buried). Robert the Bruce was buried in Dunfermline Abbey while his heart is at Melrose Abbey. Queen Marie of Romania's heart was interred at Bran Castle.

Admittedly, the last English/British King to have his heart buried elsewhere was George II in 1760. Then again, Richard III came before George II, as it where, so it might be possible. I, for one, wouldn't mind if his body remains in Leicester but his heart is interred in York. It feels strangely appropriate.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #162  
Old 02-11-2013, 04:18 AM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: City on islands, Sweden
Posts: 1,095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
I, for one, wouldn't mind if his body remains in Leicester but his heart is interred in York. It feels strangely appropriate.
But are there any soft tissue left on the body of Richard III?
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #163  
Old 02-11-2013, 04:20 AM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meraude View Post
But are there any soft tissue left on the body of Richard III?
No, of course not. Not after 500 years.
I didn't mean heart literally - perhaps some chest bones. Although put in this way it sounds more disturbing than appropriate.
Reply With Quote
  #164  
Old 02-11-2013, 09:59 AM
Baroness of Books's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Bookstacks, United States
Posts: 5,773
Yes, we're dealing with bones and not organs here so a possible resolution would be to separate some of the skeletal material from the remains.
__________________
A book should be either a bandit or a rebel or a man in the crowd..... D.H. Lawrence
Reply With Quote
  #165  
Old 02-12-2013, 02:49 PM
Lumutqueen's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Carlton, York, United Kingdom
Posts: 17,189
The reburial debate is still ongoing. We're hearing from his descendants that it was apparently Richard's decision to be buried in York. Some celebrity's are getting involved with having Richard brought back to York including Dame Judi Dench and Sir Ben Kingsley. There are two petitions one for Leicester and one for York. York's has 20,000 and Leicester has 7,000, to get to parliament a petition needs 100,000.
__________________
We Will Remember Them.
Reply With Quote
  #166  
Old 02-12-2013, 02:52 PM
An Ard Ri's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Westmeath, Ireland
Posts: 9,740
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
The reburial debate is still ongoing. We're hearing from his descendants that it was apparently Richard's decision to be buried in York. Some celebrity's are getting involved with having Richard brought back to York including Dame Judi Dench and Sir Ben Kingsley. There are two petitions one for Leicester and one for York. York's has 20,000 and Leicester has 7,000, to get to parliament a petition needs 100,000.
20,000

Goodness I honestly didn't think that many people were bothered about Richard III,guess I was wrong!
__________________
December 5th,2014 -Death of H.M.Queen Fabiola of Belgium
Reply With Quote
  #167  
Old 02-12-2013, 04:06 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,260
How would his descendents know what his burial wishes were?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #168  
Old 02-12-2013, 04:13 PM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,421

I was thinking the same thing. And anyway, Richard III had no surviving descendants. His only legitmate son died as a child, and none of his two acknowledged illegitimate children (John of Gloucester an Katharine, Countess of Pembroke) had known descendants either.

As for the descendants of his sister and other relatives, unless there is some kind of a document passed from generation to generation where Richard expresses the wishes on his final resting place, they can't know any more than someone completely not related to him. Hell, I am a descendant of Richard's brother (along with tens of thousands of people in and outside Britain), and I have absolutely no idea.

This said, I am still strongly for York and equally strongly against Leicester. Not that anyone in Britain would care, of course. But still.
Reply With Quote
  #169  
Old 02-12-2013, 04:17 PM
Lumutqueen's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Carlton, York, United Kingdom
Posts: 17,189
Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
How would his descendents know what his burial wishes were?
According to this guy, I forget his name, it was Richard's wish to be buried in York when he died. I assume it was in a document of some kind.
__________________
We Will Remember Them.
Reply With Quote
  #170  
Old 02-12-2013, 04:25 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,260
If such a document exists then surely it should be produced to back thise claiming York should be his burial place. From what I have read York Minster seems to have little interest in that honour. Does the Minster even have a memorial to Richard III? I know Leicester has had one.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #171  
Old 02-12-2013, 04:27 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baroness of Books View Post
Yes, we're dealing with bones and not organs here so a possible resolution would be to separate some of the skeletal material from the remains.
Are there not laws know against the "humiliation of human remains".
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #172  
Old 02-12-2013, 04:31 PM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
If such a document exists then surely it should be produced to back thise claiming York should be his burial place. From what I have read York Minster seems to have little interest in that honour. Does the Minster even have a memorial to Richard III? I know Leicester has had one.
I think the York Ministry's hands are tied; it had been agreed beforehand that any finds will remain in Leicester.

However, if there is sufficient support, anything can happen. Burying Richard III in York makes perfect sense and would be a fitting tribute. Burying him in Leicester makes no sense at all: apart from laying forgotten and humiliated there for over 500 years, he had no ties with the city whatsoever.
Reply With Quote
  #173  
Old 02-12-2013, 04:36 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,260
^^^^^
Perhaps but it is where he fell in battle having lost his war and his throne and it is where he has been for 500 years which seems a pretty long attachment. He is not exactly a fallen hero to be given a triumphal return.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #174  
Old 02-12-2013, 04:37 PM
Lumutqueen's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Carlton, York, United Kingdom
Posts: 17,189
Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
If such a document exists then surely it should be produced to back thise claiming York should be his burial place. From what I have read York Minster seems to have little interest in that honour. Does the Minster even have a memorial to Richard III? I know Leicester has had one.
York Minster said he should be buried in Leicester, personally that's probably got more to do with "not getting involved" than with what they actually want. Leicester Statue to Richard was unveiled in 1980 and was built for the reason he stayed their the night before the Battle of Bosworth, and for many many years after it seems.

One of Anne of Yorks descendants has said "we repatriate those who die in battle, why should this be any different?" Richard was born, lived and visited York more than any other city during his life and reign. He's a yorkshireman.

The Richard III Society, which funded the Leicester Statue, suggested he be reinterred in York. Although claiming it was an "optimistic shout". Looking at articles most seem to say it was Richard's "living wish" to be buried in York. Howevere there is no will or document to back it up. Makes sense though for a man to wish to be buried where he was born.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
^^^^^
Perhaps but it is where he fell in battle having lost his war and his throne and it is where he has been for 500 years which seems a pretty long attachment.
Not like it was his choice though really? He was, and please pardon the term, a "body dump". Leicester happened to find him, there's no other connection to him in my mind.


Being somewhat selfish here guys but if you would like to see him re-interred in York here's the petition - http://www.bringbackrichard.co.uk/
__________________
We Will Remember Them.
Reply With Quote
  #175  
Old 02-12-2013, 06:39 PM
Baroness of Books's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Bookstacks, United States
Posts: 5,773
Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Are there not laws know against the "humiliation of human remains".
I don't believe separating skeletal remains for a dignified reburial would fall under the purview of humiliation or desecration of human remains, in my mind. After all, there have been cases where monarchs' and saints' remains have been buried in different and appropriate resting places with no disrespect meant - some with bones, others with organs. But there might be a certain prejudice against doing that. And perhaps Richard, knowing he was going into battle, may have drawn up a document/will detailing where he wished to be buried. Perhaps he drew it up earlier in his life. If the document exists and could be produced by the York descendants if they have it, that would certainly resolve where he should be reinterred.

Personally, I would like to see him resting in York Minster with all extant bones.
__________________
A book should be either a bandit or a rebel or a man in the crowd..... D.H. Lawrence
Reply With Quote
  #176  
Old 02-12-2013, 06:44 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 1,091
From what I understand after his death he was tossed across the back of a horse and carried back into the city as part of the victory celebration...and then his body was turned over to a local abbey (Grey Friars I think) where he was burned, not far from where he was actually found.

When Henry VIII and the Reformation destroyed the religious houses his burial site was lost.


LaRae
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #177  
Old 02-12-2013, 06:49 PM
Duchess of Durham's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Durham, United States
Posts: 619
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
Being somewhat selfish here guys but if you would like to see him re-interred in York here's the petition - www.bringbackrichard.co.uk
You have to be a British citizen to sign the petition. But it makes sense, this is a British issue not an American or any other country.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #178  
Old 02-12-2013, 10:18 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,667
As he was buried with RC rites in an RC church in Leicester that is where he should be reburied now.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #179  
Old 02-12-2013, 10:51 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 4,159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
As he was buried with RC rites in an RC church in Leicester that is where he should be reburied now.
One thing is evident though. The Roman Catholic Church and its practices are not entirely the same as they were back in Richard III's time. Over the years, it has changed with the times and England has changed also with the Reformation and the establishment of the Church of England.

One solution for the reburial of Richard III would be to use the Sarum Rite that was in use during the time he was King of England.

"The Sarum Use was the form that Mass was celebrated in throughout the British Isles from the high middle ages (or even earlier) until the Reformation. There were some local variants, such as at Hereford, York, Aberdeen, Bangor, and slight tweaks at Lincoln and Westminster Abbey."

Valle Adurni: The Legal Status of the Sarum Mass

In doing this, it echoes the life and beliefs of a King in that time period, is historically accurate and doesn't raise any political or religious issues. The focus should be on the personage being reburied and to be honest, I think he wouldn't recognize either the Roman or CoE churches if he were to step into one today.

Just a few thoughts.
__________________
“We live in a world where we have to hide to make love, while violence is practiced in broad daylight.”
~~~ John Lennon ~~~
Reply With Quote
  #180  
Old 02-12-2013, 11:05 PM
Baroness of Books's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Bookstacks, United States
Posts: 5,773
^^^That would be very appropriate if Richard were buried in accordance with the rites and rituals of his time. Thank you for your link, Osipi.
__________________

__________________
A book should be either a bandit or a rebel or a man in the crowd..... D.H. Lawrence
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Popular Tags
abdication belgium birth brussels carl philip charlene chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events fashion genealogy germany grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta leonor infanta sofia jordan king carl xvi gustav king constantine ii king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander letizia luxembourg nobility official visit olympic games ottoman pieter van vollenhoven poland pregnancy president hollande prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince floris prince pieter-christiaan princess aimee princess anita princess astrid princess beatrix princess charlene princess mabel princess madeleine princess margriet princess mary queen anne-marie queen fabiola queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen silvia royal royal fashion russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit sweden the hague wedding william



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:28 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]