Richard III (1452-1485): Discovery of Remains and Reburial

[Emmily]

I hope you succeed.

I have nothing against Leicester but it's hardly a suitable place for the King's reburial. For the past 500 years, he lay there, humiliated and forgotten. Now, there is a chance to give Richard a proper farewell, at a place that has a better association. Some place like York where was genuinely loved and the place he himself cared for deeply.

How incredible is that...a King found in a parking lot.

 

[Baroness of Books]

^^^Isn't it? Pretty amazing, especially since it's such a famous and controversial king.

 

[Osipi]

Just an odd thought. Wouldn't it be possible to inter some of Richard III's remains in both places? I know its been done before (my father-in-law, a Presbyterian minister) where a person has close ties to several places and the remains are interred in more than one place. Come to think of it, I believe that relics of several saints have had the same thing done at various cathedrals and churches.

 

[NGalitzine]

Well it wasn't a parking lot 500 years ago so not really that remarkable.

 

[Baroness of Books]

It is pretty remarkable in current times when you consider what those cars were unknowingly parked over on a daily basis. This wasn't a grave found in a remote area, but right in the city. And I think Osipi's idea might be a good King Solomon's solution; it wouldn't be the first time part of a monarch's body was interred in another place. I don't know what kind of reaction this may spark, though, among proponents of the two cities in question.

 

[corazon]

He will either be buried in Leicester or York, most likely Leicester.

oh, thanks so much for your answer

 

[Duchess of Durham]

The White Queen to become a ten part BBC ONE drama series

Richard III will feature in this series which will air in May 2013 on the BBC.


BBC - Media Centre - The White Queen, a new ten-part drama for BBC One

The White Queen to become a ten part BBC ONE drama series | Philippa Gregory Official Website

That's fantastic - I love her "Cousins' War" series!

I've been a fan of Philippa Gregory's writings for quite a while. It's good to know there are others out there who also appreciate her.

 

[Baroness of Books]

^^^I hope you read "The Kingmaker's Daughter," her latest novel about Anne Neville. The next one in the series will be "The White Princess," about Princess Elizabeth of York.

 

[Duchess of Durham]

^^^I hope you read "The Kingmaker's Daughter," her latest novel about Anne Neville. The next one in the series will be "The White Princess," about Princess Elizabeth of York.

I had started The White Queen but stopped because I had read the same story earlier this year from her sister Kate's, the Duchess of Buckingham (I think). With all the news of Richard III, I started reading it and am 1/4 of the way through. I have read The Red Queen, but will read it again as it's been a few years, then I will read "The Kingmaker's Daughter." I very much enjoy Philippa's writing and am so excited to see the relevance with everything that is going on regarding Richard.

 

[Mariel]

If the remains are cremated it would be appropriate to divide the ashes. But I would not divide the bones. Even Mary Queen of Scots has her head buried with the rest of her. Not dignified to separate the bones.
Osipi's idea of a Catholic funeral is appropriate, but if he has a Catholic funeral he should be buried in Catholic holy ground. The cathedrals which are not at present Catholic...do they have a section for Catholic burials? I wouldn't think so. I am not in England so I don't know what Catholic cathedral would have holy ground for his remains. Maybe the Catholic cathedral at Westminster or in York. I know these cathedrals like York must have been built before he died, and were once Catholic, but they are not now if they are C of E.
Prayers for his soul's peace, that's the real location that counts.

 

[Artemisia]

Just an odd thought. Wouldn't it be possible to inter some of Richard III's remains in both places? I know its been done before (my father-in-law, a Presbyterian minister) where a person has close ties to several places and the remains are interred in more than one place. Come to think of it, I believe that relics of several saints have had the same thing done at various cathedrals and churches.

Actually, that's not a bad idea at all. The custom of separate burials of different parts of body or organs for Royals is actually quite old.
For instance, the body of King John was buried in Worcester Cathedral but his heart was buried in the Royal Abbey of Fontevraud (where his parents, brother and second wife - or different body parts of theirs - were buried). Robert the Bruce was buried in Dunfermline Abbey while his heart is at Melrose Abbey. Queen Marie of Romania's heart was interred at Bran Castle.

Admittedly, the last English/British King to have his heart buried elsewhere was George II in 1760. Then again, Richard III came before George II, as it where, so it might be possible. I, for one, wouldn't mind if his body remains in Leicester but his heart is interred in York. It feels strangely appropriate.

 

[Meraude]

I, for one, wouldn't mind if his body remains in Leicester but his heart is interred in York. It feels strangely appropriate.

But are there any soft tissue left on the body of Richard III?

 

[Artemisia]

But are there any soft tissue left on the body of Richard III?

No, of course not. Not after 500 years.
I didn't mean heart literally - perhaps some chest bones. Although put in this way it sounds more disturbing than appropriate.

 

[Baroness of Books]

Yes, we're dealing with bones and not organs here so a possible resolution would be to separate some of the skeletal material from the remains.

 

[Lumutqueen]

The reburial debate is still ongoing. We're hearing from his descendants that it was apparently Richard's decision to be buried in York. Some celebrity's are getting involved with having Richard brought back to York including Dame Judi Dench and Sir Ben Kingsley. There are two petitions one for Leicester and one for York. York's has 20,000 and Leicester has 7,000, to get to parliament a petition needs 100,000.

 

[An Ard Ri]

The reburial debate is still ongoing. We're hearing from his descendants that it was apparently Richard's decision to be buried in York. Some celebrity's are getting involved with having Richard brought back to York including Dame Judi Dench and Sir Ben Kingsley. There are two petitions one for Leicester and one for York. York's has 20,000 and Leicester has 7,000, to get to parliament a petition needs 100,000.

20,000

Goodness I honestly didn't think that many people were bothered about Richard III,guess I was wrong!

 

[NGalitzine]

How would his descendents know what his burial wishes were?

 

[Artemisia]

I was thinking the same thing. And anyway, Richard III had no surviving descendants. His only legitmate son died as a child, and none of his two acknowledged illegitimate children (John of Gloucester an Katharine, Countess of Pembroke) had known descendants either.

As for the descendants of his sister and other relatives, unless there is some kind of a document passed from generation to generation where Richard expresses the wishes on his final resting place, they can't know any more than someone completely not related to him. Hell, I am a descendant of Richard's brother (along with tens of thousands of people in and outside Britain), and I have absolutely no idea.

This said, I am still strongly for York and equally strongly against Leicester. Not that anyone in Britain would care, of course. But still.

 

[Lumutqueen]

How would his descendents know what his burial wishes were?

According to this guy, I forget his name, it was Richard's wish to be buried in York when he died. I assume it was in a document of some kind.

 

[NGalitzine]

If such a document exists then surely it should be produced to back thise claiming York should be his burial place. From what I have read York Minster seems to have little interest in that honour. Does the Minster even have a memorial to Richard III? I know Leicester has had one.

 

[NGalitzine]

Yes, we're dealing with bones and not organs here so a possible resolution would be to separate some of the skeletal material from the remains.

Are there not laws know against the "humiliation of human remains".

 

[Artemisia]

If such a document exists then surely it should be produced to back thise claiming York should be his burial place. From what I have read York Minster seems to have little interest in that honour. Does the Minster even have a memorial to Richard III? I know Leicester has had one.

I think the York Ministry's hands are tied; it had been agreed beforehand that any finds will remain in Leicester.

However, if there is sufficient support, anything can happen. Burying Richard III in York makes perfect sense and would be a fitting tribute. Burying him in Leicester makes no sense at all: apart from laying forgotten and humiliated there for over 500 years, he had no ties with the city whatsoever.

 

[NGalitzine]

^^^^^
Perhaps but it is where he fell in battle having lost his war and his throne and it is where he has been for 500 years which seems a pretty long attachment. He is not exactly a fallen hero to be given a triumphal return.

 

[Lumutqueen]

If such a document exists then surely it should be produced to back thise claiming York should be his burial place. From what I have read York Minster seems to have little interest in that honour. Does the Minster even have a memorial to Richard III? I know Leicester has had one.

York Minster said he should be buried in Leicester, personally that's probably got more to do with "not getting involved" than with what they actually want. Leicester Statue to Richard was unveiled in 1980 and was built for the reason he stayed their the night before the Battle of Bosworth, and for many many years after it seems.

One of Anne of Yorks descendants has said "we repatriate those who die in battle, why should this be any different?" Richard was born, lived and visited York more than any other city during his life and reign. He's a yorkshireman.

The Richard III Society, which funded the Leicester Statue, suggested he be reinterred in York. Although claiming it was an "optimistic shout". Looking at articles most seem to say it was Richard's "living wish" to be buried in York. Howevere there is no will or document to back it up. Makes sense though for a man to wish to be buried where he was born.

^^^^^
Perhaps but it is where he fell in battle having lost his war and his throne and it is where he has been for 500 years which seems a pretty long attachment.

Not like it was his choice though really? He was, and please pardon the term, a "body dump". Leicester happened to find him, there's no other connection to him in my mind.


Being somewhat selfish here guys but if you would like to see him re-interred in York here's the petition - http://www.bringbackrichard.co.uk/

 

[Baroness of Books]

Are there not laws know against the "humiliation of human remains".

I don't believe separating skeletal remains for a dignified reburial would fall under the purview of humiliation or desecration of human remains, in my mind. After all, there have been cases where monarchs' and saints' remains have been buried in different and appropriate resting places with no disrespect meant - some with bones, others with organs. But there might be a certain prejudice against doing that. And perhaps Richard, knowing he was going into battle, may have drawn up a document/will detailing where he wished to be buried. Perhaps he drew it up earlier in his life. If the document exists and could be produced by the York descendants if they have it, that would certainly resolve where he should be reinterred.

Personally, I would like to see him resting in York Minster with all extant bones.

 

[Pranter]

From what I understand after his death he was tossed across the back of a horse and carried back into the city as part of the victory celebration...and then his body was turned over to a local abbey (Grey Friars I think) where he was burned, not far from where he was actually found.

When Henry VIII and the Reformation destroyed the religious houses his burial site was lost.


LaRae

 

[Duchess of Durham]

Being somewhat selfish here guys but if you would like to see him re-interred in York here's the petition - www.bringbackrichard.co.uk

You have to be a British citizen to sign the petition. But it makes sense, this is a British issue not an American or any other country.

 

[Iluvbertie]

As he was buried with RC rites in an RC church in Leicester that is where he should be reburied now.

 

[Osipi]

As he was buried with RC rites in an RC church in Leicester that is where he should be reburied now.

One thing is evident though. The Roman Catholic Church and its practices are not entirely the same as they were back in Richard III's time. Over the years, it has changed with the times and England has changed also with the Reformation and the establishment of the Church of England.

One solution for the reburial of Richard III would be to use the Sarum Rite that was in use during the time he was King of England.

"The Sarum Use was the form that Mass was celebrated in throughout the British Isles from the high middle ages (or even earlier) until the Reformation. There were some local variants, such as at Hereford, York, Aberdeen, Bangor, and slight tweaks at Lincoln and Westminster Abbey."

Valle Adurni: The Legal Status of the Sarum Mass

In doing this, it echoes the life and beliefs of a King in that time period, is historically accurate and doesn't raise any political or religious issues. The focus should be on the personage being reburied and to be honest, I think he wouldn't recognize either the Roman or CoE churches if he were to step into one today.

Just a few thoughts.

 

[Baroness of Books]

^^^That would be very appropriate if Richard were buried in accordance with the rites and rituals of his time. Thank you for your link, Osipi.