Richard III (1452-1485): Discovery of Remains and Reburial


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It's amazing how similar the reconstruction is to the portraits. Some had suggested that the portraits, which were painted after his death, were altered to make him look more sinister to fit with the consensus of RIII as an evil tyrant.

The archeologists involved say they've been amazed at the worldwide interest in this story. It wouldn't surprise me if a movie based on RIII's life and death is made to cash in on all of this. Films about British royal history have become all the rage of late.

I was seriously annoyed that the BBC broke away from today's press conference to talk about Chris Huhne. I mean, what's more interesting - discovery of the remains of a King of England after 500 years, or yet another MP shown to be a lying corrupt waste of space? The answer should be obvious.
 
I've always found Richard III to be such a fascinating, mysterious and very likely one of the most maligned figures in history. His fairly short reign has been steeped in much controversy and to have his missing skeleton emerge from a car park, of all places, just boggles the mind. I'm sure that's why there's such great reaction to this story, and also because he's linked so closely to one of the greatest mysteries of the ages, the fate of the Princes in the Tower. He's not an obscure monarch by any means, so I'm not surprised that this may lead to a movie as a result of this discovery. Who knows, maybe there will be "The Plantagenets" as the next royal mini-series; that would be phenomenal. Hollywood/BBC, are you listening?
 
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Richard III was buried under a car park?

Who knew the Mafia existed in 15th century Britain? :eek:
 
Gracie, you just crack me up! Nearly spewed my tea over the keyboard..... :lol:
 
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How amazing is the modern technology? We are actually able to tell what a person who died over 500 years ago looked like!
I find it fascinating the reconstruction looks very similar to his much later portraits.

I wouldn't be surprised if Hollywood is right now in the quest to find the best screenplay to depict the King's life. Just hope it's not based on Shakespeare's play.
 
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I'm not sure how realistic finding King Alfred's grave is but if they ever do, it will be fantastic! He is, after all, the only English/British Monarch who was given the epithet "Great" - and deservingly so! In regards to a DNA sample to compare Alfred's bones to (assuming they are found), wasn't Anne of York a female-line descendants of his? I'll need to check that but assuming she was then all they have to do is compare the bones to the DNA of the Canadian carpenter who provided sample to compare to Richard III, or indeed the DNA of Richard himself.


Meanwhile, Richard III's facial reconstruction was officially unveiled by Richard III Society.
Richard III’s Facial Reconstruction Unveiled
Today, the Richard III Society officially unveiled the facial reconstruction of Richard III by the University of Dundee craniofacial identification team. The finished result is perhaps most amazing in one aspect – just how much it looks like the portraits of the late King.
 
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The reconstruction fascinates me.... awesome !!!
 
Has it been determined if there will be any kind of ceremony for Richard III reburial? And would the Queen show up to show respect for a former monarch?
 
Has it been determined if there will be any kind of ceremony for Richard III reburial? And would the Queen show up to show respect for a former monarch?

Apparently he's either to be buried in Leicester or York. Doubtful the Queen will show up.
 
The Queen is indeed unlikely to attend but I'd say an appearance from the Duke of Gloucester is almost guaranteed.
 
The reconstructions are amazing. But with such a severe spine defect I don't see how he could fight very well with a raised sword for instance. He must have been hunched over very badly.
 
It's chilling, but in a good way, to see that reconstruction. There's also a photo of his descendant with that figure as well; just amazing to be able to look into the face of your ancestor from the mists of time.
 
The reconstructions are amazing. But with such a severe spine defect I don't see how he could fight very well with a raised sword for instance. He must have been hunched over very badly.

Far from all with scoliosis looked like Quasimodo. Richard III led armies and was in charge of campaigns on behalf of his brother before he became king.
Being a genuine hunchback on a battlefield during the Wars of the Roses would have been close to suicidal, even for a very high ranking man like Richard.
He was after all cut off from his escort at Bosworth. That happened all the time for high ranking persons during the confusion of close combat.
 
This discovery is truly sensational. Philippa Langley must be awestruck at how this quest has come to fruition. The reconstruction of King Richard's appearance is wonderful. I trust his final interment will take place with rites of which he would approve, and that he rests in peace.
 
It's chilling, but in a good way, to see that reconstruction. There's also a photo of his descendant with that figure as well; just amazing to be able to look into the face of your ancestor from the mists of time.


The man isn't a descendent of Richard III but of Richard's sister. There are also 1000s of descendants of Richard's brother still living including HM The Queen, HRH The Duke of Edinburgh and many of the other royals across Europe.
 
The Queen is indeed unlikely to attend but I'd say an appearance from the Duke of Gloucester is almost guaranteed.


Why the Duke of Gloucester?

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How fascinating is this discovery?! So we know that Richard had scoliosis but wasn't a hunchback or a monster so this might have a small impact on how he is viewed but not much I think.

To me he will be the brother who at the end of the day, let his brother down. Don't get me wrong, while alive he appeared to be a great supporter of Edward, but the whole Princes in the Tower thing seems to negate (at least to me) any good work he might have done.
 
Why the Duke of Gloucester?

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How fascinating is this discovery?! So we know that Richard had scoliosis but wasn't a hunchback or a monster so this might have a small impact on how he is viewed but not much I think.

To me he will be the brother who at the end of the day, let his brother down. Don't get me wrong, while alive he appeared to be a great supporter of Edward, but the whole Princes in the Tower thing seems to negate (at least to me) any good work he might have done.

The Duke of Gloucester is the Patron of the Richard III Society. Plus, King Richard had been the Duke of Gloucester prior to ascending to the Throne - just like his namesake, the current Duke of Gloucester. Wherever and whenever the burial is, the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester will be there unless they have a prior engagement.

I am really amazed just how much this story resonated across the world. I mean, I expected a certain degree of interest in the UK and among history/royalty lovers worldwide but this has been just massive! Philippa called it surreal, and I agree with her.
 
Probably because HRH The Duke of Gloucester is Patron of the Richard III Society and of course holds the same title as Richard did before taking the throne. Also BP have aready announced that the events in Liecester have nothing to do with them so very unlikely QEII would ever attend.
Right now the City of York are claiming that the remains should be buried at York Minster and not in Liecester so it seems Richard III will still cause trouble centuries after he was killed in battle.
 
:D Saw on another site a photo of the King's reconstructed face next to a photo of Robert Pattinson! Add a pageboy wig and Robert could be his twin. Perhaps the Pattinson family might want to take a closer look at their family tree.
 
For those of you who find the character of Richard III compelling, author Josephine Tey wrote a mystery years ago called THE DAUGHTER OF TIME about Richard's culpability in the disappearance of the Princes. If you are a fan of mysteries, the plot and writing are among my favorites,
Tey situates her detective in hospital, unable to move after injury and he takes a look at the mystery of the Princes in the Tower to keep his mind active. The characters in the supporting cast are well written and the plot compelling - despite the fact that no one is in danger and no one get hurt because the mystery is centuries old. Critics loved the plotting but niggled at the facts as Tey presented them. Even knowing that, to this day this is a favorite rainy day read. :)
 
The man isn't a descendent of Richard III but of Richard's sister. There are also 1000s of descendants of Richard's brother still living including HM The Queen, HRH The Duke of Edinburgh and many of the other royals across Europe.

Be that as it may, though there may be numerous descendants of the Plantagenent family existing, I would still find it mind-blowing if I were the particular descendant whose DNA confirmed that this was Richard III and to be the first to have a vis-à-vis look at his reconstruction.

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/pb-130205-richard-da-02.photoblog900.jpg

For those of you who find the character of Richard III compelling, author Josephine Tey wrote a mystery years ago called THE DAUGHTER OF TIME about Richard's culpability in the disappearance of the Princes. If you are a fan of mysteries, the plot and writing are among my favorites,
Tey situates her detective in hospital, unable to move after injury and he takes a look at the mystery of the Princes in the Tower to keep his mind active. The characters in the supporting cast are well written and the plot compelling - despite the fact that no one is in danger and no one get hurt because the mystery is centuries old. Critics loved the plotting but niggled at the facts as Tey presented them. Even knowing that, to this day this is a favorite rainy day read. :)

I did read this book after it was mentioned on a related thread, and I found it to be a good cerebral mystery. Highly recommended for avid fans.
 
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Richard III was Duke of Gloucester before becoming King. The present Duke of Gloucester is the patron of the Richard III society as well.

And of course they are/were both originally Prince Richard.
 
Perhaps we should have a brief look at the battle of Bosworth and how Richard the III was killed.
Please correct me if this is incorrect or outdated.

This was the last battle of the Wars of the Roses.
By now, 1485, Henry Tudor had gathered an army in France and landed in England and both armies was marching towards each other.
Richard III ought to have won, he had the largest army and he had more experience as a commander than Henry Tudor.
However, for various reasons Richard III had alienated large segments of the noble houses in England, who either defected to Henry Tudor or reluctantly joined Richard III.

22. August 1485. The armies met as Bosworth, a perfect ground for an medieval army, Richard III even commanded the highground, the odds were on his side.
His army was divided into divisions, one commanded by Northumberland and one division comming up under the command of Sir William Stanley.
Initially Henry Tudor's army was under pressure, but Northumberland's division remained passive (and actually later left the battle without taking part). Stanley's division was still on the march.
That meant that Richard III's much reduced army came under pressure. At that point Henry Tudor moved closer to the actual battle - within charging distance. Richard III who at this point was still positioned on a hill, led a do or die charge towards Henry Tudor personally. The momentum of the charge meant that Richard III got so close that he personally killed Henry Tudor's standard bearer, William Brandon. Henry Tudor refused to retreat and by now his escort had reorganised and a furious melee started.

This is also about the time that Stanley's division arrived and instead of attacking Henry Tudor, they sided with him. The situation was now unwinnable for Richard III, with Northumberland in his back, retreating from the battlefield, and the combined forces of Henry Tudor and Stanley to his front and flank.
By this time Richard III was cut off from most of his escort and unhorsed. This is the scene of "A horse. My kingdom for a horse". Here he was set upon, most likely by men from Stanley's division. His standard bearer, one of the less than a handful of retainers who were still with him, was killed and the king overwhelmed and most likely hacked to death. He did go down fighting the chroniclers tell.

The actual fighting differed very considerably from the Hundred Year War, that preceeded the Wars of the Roses.
During the Hundred Year War nothing happened most of the time. Litterally.
The war mainly consisted of raids, small scale skirmishes and sieges here end there. And every few years there was a battle. The major battles took place about once every generation. - That was typical of the all the professionally conducted meideval wars, albeit stretched out on a much longer time scale.
The fighting apart from raiding and patrol skirmishes was dominated by archers and crossbowmen, and close combat was reduced, simply because it was problematic to close in with the enemy.

That changed with the Wars of the Roses. This was warfare every young knight dreamed of. None of the sides were particular interested in raiding as no one had any interest in devastating the land. They did after all need to pay for their armies!
The campaigns were also shorter and didn't include that much skirmishing, for the simple reason that armies, and these were professional armies, were insanely expensive! So a campaign usually culminated in a battle leading to a temporary polictical result, which people had to live with, until the next conflict started.
At Bosworth the campaign and political situation was final and the Tudor dynasty started.

This was also the highmark of the full medieval armour suits. Being very expensive, they were also extremely sophisticated weighing 25-35 kilos, which meant that a fit man could move, run and jump without difficulty.
By this time shields were rarely used. If they were used at all, they were used by cavalry during a charge, usually to be discarded after an attack - or at tournaments but that's a very different story.
The sword was still the high status weapon but on the battle field it had by now been reduced to a back-up weapon. Mounted knights used mainly mazes and warhammers and to a lesser degree axes, once their lance had been discarded. All weapons designed to smash through armour or to break bones and harm tissue under the armour.
The professional footsoldiers were surprisingly well armoured but also very mobile and their favorite weapons were staff weapons, bills, pole axes and the emerging halberds. They were efficient murderous looking weapon and any knight, no matter how well armoured he was, was in serious trouble if set upon by a group of infantry. That's what happened to Richard III.

Richard III had scoliosis to some degree, obviously not enough to handicap him on the battlefield and as he was well armoured and the tactic didn't require fighting in dense formations it wouldn't have meant that much - unless you are unhorsed and outnumbered.
An initial cavalry charge would normally be with the visor of the helmet down, mainly as a protection against arrows, but it reduces visibillity and breathing very considerably. So once the first contact had taken place and the melee had started most flung open their visors.
Close combat was short. Even the most fit man couldn't fight for more than five-ten, at the very most fifteen minutes in such a melee before being completely exchausted. By then a division either retreated to catch their breath, just like their opponents, or broke. And that meant that the exchausted men were killed off with ease or taken prisoner.
A lost battle usually ended in a rout, where fleeing men were cut down by persuing cavalry suffering massive casualties.

An examination of a mass grave of victims of the battle at Towton in 1461, showed that all, every single one, of the around 100 skeletons found had at least one wound to the head, apart from the (usually) other wounds on their bodies. That led to the conclusion that most had been killed during a rout, where they had thrown away their helmets or that they had been finished of by a final stab or a blow to the head - consitent with what you might expect a professional soldier of that time to do.

Even up to the Napoleonic wars it was perfectly normal to rob and strip the fallen and dying on a battlefield. So just a couple of days after the battle the field would have been littered with halfnaked mangled corpses. And as the battle took place in August decomposing would have started to set in and that combined with carrion birds would have meant that already by now indentification would have been very difficult.
So even if Richard III's body was treated with disrespect and just tossed in a grave, it might also be for the simple fact that he was just another unidentified body among many.

Well, if you made it this far, you are probably a medieval-geek like me. :p
 
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Well, if you made it this far, you are probably a medieval-geek like me. :p
I totally am. And that was a great read. I would like to add only one thing: Richard III's personal courage during the battle was marked by almost all historians, including pro-Tudor ones. In fact, he was called the only gentleman on the battlefield for his valour.

I'll never understand why Richard trusted the Stanley brothers though. I mean, one of them was married to Margaret Beaufort (Henry Tudor's mother) and the other was about to lose significant portion of his lands due to Richard's ruling in favour of his opponent. Why leave around 6,000 people under their command? Even bearing in mind he had Lord Stanley's son held as a hostage, that was no guarantee on the batterfield.
 
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I totally am. And that was a great read. I would like to add only one thing: Richard III's personal courage during the battle was marked by almost all historians, including pro-Tudor ones. In fact, he was called the only gentleman on the battlefield for his valour.

I'll never understand why Richard trusted the Stanley brothers though. I mean, one of them was married to Margaret Beaufort (Henry Tudor's mother) and the other was about to lose significant portion of his lands due to Richard's ruling in favour of his opponent. Why leave around 6,000 people under their command?

Well, perhaps as at least one author suggests, Richard the III was a man of honour and as such a poor politician, who actually trusted people to stand by their word.
The Stanley's had pledged loyalty and Richard III, somewhat naive perhaps, expected people would not break an oath.
He appears to have reacted with anger, even outrage, when allies acted in a more "politically sound" matter. Ie. being unreliable. His inabillity to understand how politics works may have been his undoing.

Richard III certainly was not in the same league as his older brother and IRC he admitted that himself.
 
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Not being familiar with The War of the Roses, could someone explain simply why Henry Tudor had a claim to the throne? I know he was descended from Catherine of Valois and later married the sister of the Princes in the tower, but as far as I can tell he had no descent from the Platagents
 
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