Queen Victoria's Descendants: General Discussion


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LadyAlice

LadyAlice

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Hi all, I'm not sure if there is a thread dedicated to all her sons and apologise if there is (maybe someone can link the thread) but I thought it would be nice to have a thread to talk about them altogether.

I've noticed that Affie and Leo both wear the same triple ring and I'm sure that Bertie used to wear one too when he was younger. Has anyone else noticed this and does anyone know if Art wore a ring like his brothers too?

I will post photos as examples of the rings as soon as I figure out how to
 
That's very intriguing, Lady Alice. I can't say I've studied the hands of these three Princes in any depth, except to observe that they did wear a ring or several rings at various times. It was apparently quite fashionable for dandyish young males in the 1860's and '70's..

I know Prince Alfred when he was a young man wore a huge number of rings. There's a studio photo somewhere around, (can't remember where I saw it) taken in Melbourne when he was on the tour of Australia where there was that attempt on his life, and he wears at least two rings on each finger of his hands in the photo.

I don't know about Prince Arthur. Except for a pinkie ring, I can't really see him wearing large numbers of rings in his later army career, which he was deadly serious about. Perhaps the Royal Navy was different! I wonder whether the particular ring you mention had anything to do with Freemasonry? Leo was a Freemason, and all three of his surviving brothers reached the highest ranks in that organisation, ( hardly surprisingly, perhaps) especially the POW.

http://www.collectorsweekly.com/fine-jewelry/fraternal-rings
 
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I Just thing of which brother got along with whom as this was discussed on the Edward thread.

Bertie
Vicky- yes
Alice - close
Affie- close
Helena- unknown
Louise- no
Arthur- sometimes
Leo- no
Beatrice - no

Affie
Vicky- unknown
Bertie-close
Alice-yes
Helena-close
Louise-yes
Arthur-unknown
Leo-yes
Beatrice-sometimes

Arthur
Vicky-unknown
Bertie- sometimes
Alice-unknown
Helena-yes
Louise-yes
Leo-close
Beatrice-no

Leo
Vicky-unknown
Bertie-no
Alice-yes
Affie-yes
Helena-yes
Louise-close
Arthur-close
Beatrice-no
 
That's pretty correct, I think, except that Vicky often played the role of adviser and friend to her much younger siblings, including her brothers. She was in a way the glue, the go-between that they relied on increasingly, after Alice died and their mother aged, especially.

Of course they were all adults and doing their own thing most of the time and because of her situation as 'the English woman' at the Prussian court, they didn't impose themselves often on her at Berlin. They mostly met elsewhere, but I do think she tried her best to help her siblings if they needed her.

Of course she was gone from the house, married and in Germany by the time the three youngest children were in the schoolroom. Beatrice was only a baby.

I think there was always that special closeness between the oldest four, as they were so near in age, and could remember their parents, Albert especially, as young, energetic and more carefree than they were later.

I always think that Leopold especially missed his father's love and attention. His mother's fussing over and rule of his life would have been greatly decreased if Albert had died even fifteen to twenty years later than he did.
 
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I feel sorry for Bertie as v&a almost made his life seem pointless. The poor man didn't have a purpose and anything he made his name in which was work oriented it got taken off him and given to someone else. It's no wonder he became the way he did.
I'm sure Affie was in the wrong profession. He might of enjoyed the navy as a young lad but he was painfully shy and socially awakard which must be hard after being separated from his family and missing out in family occasions it would double the stress, no wonder he found comfort in a bottle.

I'm sure Arthur was no angel but he knew how to play the game and keep his cards close to his chest.

Leo is Victoria but a male version
 
Agree about Bertie. They tried their best but were so blind. (Of course there was no such thing as child psychology then).

Affie was certainly a heavy drinker in his adult life but he wasn't alone in that. Many drank a lot, unfortunately. I think it was Admiral Sir John Fisher who met Affie by chance in England after he had become Duke of Saxe Coburg and Gotha. They shared a railway carriage. Fisher reported that Affie talked incessantly about the navy, how bored he was with ducal duties in Germany, and displayed a mordant sense of humour by stating that one day he would be found with his throat cut!
 
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Did Affie and Arthur get along does anybody know? I know that sometimes got along with Bertie and he was close to Leo
 
I don't think Arthur and Alfred were particularly close actually. Arthur was army-mad, Affie devoted to the Royal Navy. There was almost six years difference in age between them and that's a gulf in childhood. Affie being sent away in his early teens for naval training provoked a rare blast against the beloved Albert in his wife's diaries, as she bemoaned her son being cast away from his parents, brothers and sisters and happy home. She inferred that Albert could have deferred this if he'd wanted to!

So Alfred was away from home for long stretches while Arthur was growing up. I believe he was in the Mediterranean Command when Arthur left school and entered Army training. Arthur went to Canada, Egypt and spent long years in India subsequently, while Alfred was at his naval duties, usually around the Mediterranean. Of course they would have met if they were both in England/Scotland at the same time, would have attended family christenings, weddings and funerals and so forth (though it's odd Alfred didn't turn up at Leo's funeral) but no, I don't think they were close.

I believe Bertie's primary relationships with his siblings were with Vicky, Alice and Affie. Affie's were with Vicky, Alice and Bertie, though the two brothers saw less and less of each other as the years went by. Arthur did love his younger invalid brother Leo, and like others in the family sometimes enjoyed Louise's wit.

However, Arthur to me, and I may be wrong, doesn't seem to have had a very close relationship with any of his siblings after Leo's death, and even with Leo his army career and his own family came first. He lived abroad (in India) for such a long time as well.
 
It seems everyone hits a blank wall with Arthur and it's hardly surprising there is no in depth biography of him.

I love reading about Arthur and Leo's realtionship when they were young. I thought it was Arthur not affie that couldn't go to Leo's funeral.

Is there any other photos of the brothers together or film footage of the three surviving brothers?
 
I'm sure someone on the Forum would know of any film and/or photos. They all must have ridden, you would have thought, in their mother's Diamond Jubilee Procession,, though perhaps Affie was too ill by then.

Only the Prince of Wales was at Leo's funeral. Arthur most probably had an excuse. He would have been serving in either Egypt or India at the time and couldn't get away. I don't know why Alfred wasn't there. Illness, couldn't get away from his duties in the Mediterranean? Don't know.

Yes, Arthur is quite the man of mystery compared to his brothers. There must be a worthwhile story there. His marriage to Princess Louise whose father was an absolute pig, he and Leo, the relationship with Leonie L, service in the East, his daughters and their marriages, especially Margaret's, his strange grandson and said grandson's even stranger premature death. My goodness, there should be a few chapters there as well as his childhood, parents and closeness (or not) with his other siblings.
 
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I am really interested in Victoria & Albert and their many children.

Is here a definitive biography that anyone would like to recommend?
 
Emme said:
I am really interested in Victoria & Albert and their many children.

Is here a definitive biography that anyone would like to recommend?
Click to expand...

I really loved Bertie by Jane Ridley

The mystery of princess Louise by Lucinda hawksley

Alfred by john van der kirst

Queen Victoria's youngest son by Charlotte zeepvat
 
LadyAlice said:
It seems everyone hits a blank wall with Arthur and it's hardly surprising there is no in depth biography of him.

I love reading about Arthur and Leo's realtionship when they were young. I thought it was Arthur not affie that couldn't go to Leo's funeral.

?
Click to expand...

I'm sure I have seen a biography of Arthur many years ago when I worked I a bookshop. It may not be very in depth but it looked quite a big one,..
 
That's It
I used to work in a big bookshop, with a royal connextion.. and it was out then In the early 90s. Noble Frankland is I think part of the team behind the WWII series that was so big in the 1970s or 80s a big long history of the 2nd WW.
So I don't know how good it is as a bio but it is CERTAINLY is a big heavy book
 
LadyAlice said:
I feel sorry for Bertie as v&a almost made his life seem pointless. The poor man didn't have a purpose and anything he made his name in which was work oriented it got taken off him and given to someone else. It's no wonder he became the way he did.
Click to expand...
Now, that's a sad story. Bertie had so much pressure on him as the heir, and he could never connect with his parents. He did some pretty nasty things as an adult though, that will make my sympathy for him limited.

LadyAlice said:
I love reading about Arthur and Leo's relationship when they were young.
Click to expand...
Both of them became great grandfathers to our current king Carl XVI Gustaf. That is the funny thing about royal history: everybody is connected to each other.
 
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M. Payton said:
I found your book on ABE Books, cost is around $15.00, used and in great condition.........sounds pretty good.
Click to expand...

Good find, Payton. Abebooks.com is my favorite website next to TRF, of course. It is antiquarian bookstores in "the English-speaking" world. You can search by author or by book title and order a book from all over the place. I've ordered from England and Canada as well as here in the US. A great resource for hard to find and out of print books.
 
When Prince Alfred's trip to Australia was being planned, did The Prince of Wales (Bertie) suggest that their younger brother Arthur should accompany Alfred?
 
Alfred, Hereditary Prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (1874-1899) - QV's grandson

Hello, guys!

So, I'm new here and I love learning about the lives of princes and heirs who died young. I have this interest for Alfred, Hereditary Prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, the son of Prince Alfred, the Duke of Edinburgh and youngest grandson of Queen Victoria. He was also a grandson of Alexander II of Russia.

He died at 24 under still unclear circumstances. Some say he shot himself, his sister said simply that his health broke down. There was an engagement between him and Duchess Elsa Matilda Marie, elder twin daughter of the late Duke William Eugene of Württemberg by his marriage with the Grand Duchess Vera of Russia, but the marriage never occurred if there even was a courtship.

I would like to know more about his life and personality. Why didn't he marry? Was there any love interests for him? What were his relationships with his Russian cousins, most specifically Nicholas II and Grand Duke George Alexandrovich? And are there any primary sources surviving in the Royal Archives?

Also, is there any book with good information about him? Such as John Van Der Kiste's biography of Prince Alfred, the Duke of Edinburgh or something?

Feel free to share some photos if you have any.

Many thanks, guys.

Best Wishes,
Kallia
 
I don't know much about him but I assume the reason that he didn't marry was because he was still considered rather young, so he most likely wasn't in a hurry to get married.
 
He led a dissipated life (mistresses & debts) and suffered from poor health (including syphilis).

His mother had this to say about him, in a letter to his sister Marie Crown Princess of Romania, dated April 11, 1898:

"What is to be done about Alfred, he seems hopeless. I ignored him totally for Easter and he was quite alone at Potsdam. He simply disgusts me and I send him through Ruxleben very painful messages and refused to pay his new debts for his dirty mistress. A charming son, who pays his low love affairs with his mother's money! But Papa does not know all these last charming details. All this happened a day or two since his return."

Source: Diana Mandache, Dearest Missy: The Correspondence between Marie, Grand Duchess of Russia, Duchess of Edinburgh and of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha and her Daughter, Marie, Crown Princess of Romania, 1879-1900 (Rosvall Royal Books, 2011), p. 337.


Royal expert Marlene Koenig wrote about him on her blog as well as a lengthier article available for purchase:

Royal Musings: An Engagement broken: Hereditary Prince Alfred of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha and Duchess Elsa of Wurttemberg
 
As I recall he tried to kill himself... his mother was furious with him... and he died from after effects of the shooting and his bad health
 
I have the van der Kiste bio on Affie but there's not an awful lot on Young Alfred in it. He had rather an unhappy childhood. His father was away due to his naval career for much of the time, his mother Marie was quite unsympathetic and a rigid disciplinarian. Alfred loved his sisters but he was placed quite early under a bullying German tutor and virtually separated from them.

This is what I've gathered from the bio, from the Alfred Duke of Edinburgh and his family thread at the Alexander Forum (which I've always found a marvellous history resource) and from his sister Marie's biography by Hannah Pakula.

In Alfred's later teens he was placed in a very smart but quite louche Prussian cavalry regiment in Berlin (again separate from his family) and fell into bad habits there, leading a rather debauched lifestyle. By 1898 syphilis had him in its grip. His mother was impatient as was his sister Victoria Melita (Ducky) who refused to allow him to visit her that year, though apparently a long visit to Egypt was planned for him and Ernest Duke of Hesse and Ducky that winter.

However by Jan 1899 Alfred was painfully thin, could hardly walk and was becoming incoherent in speech. His sister Marie, in Coburg for her parents anniversary, was horrified at his condition. He died soon after his parents silver wedding anniversary, which he was not allowed to attend. (By then he'd reputedly shot himself anyway.) It was advised that he not be moved but was an embarrassment and was sent away anyway, and shortly died.
 
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Alfred is part of a long list of princes whose parents were not caring enough to ensure that their heir was surrounded by talented men of integrity.
 
I'm putting this post here, because it relates to both Princess Alice (later The Grand Duchess of Hesse and by Rhine) and Princess Victoria (The Princess Royal and later German Empress). The Royal Collection Trust instagram account has uploaded a painting of Princess Alice (left) and Princess Victoria (right) dressed in costumes for a dance performance as a birthday surprise for Queen Victoria, in 1850. This watercolour painting will be displayed in the new exhibition ‘Victoria & Albert: Our Lives in Watercolour’ in The Queen's Gallery, Palace of Holyroodhouse.
@royalcollectiontrust Verified
Princess Alice, born #OTD in 1843, is depicted here with her elder sister Princess Victoria in the costumes they wore to perform a dance as a birthday surprise for their mother, Queen Victoria, in 1850. See this exquisitely painted watercolour and many others documenting royal family life in the mid-19th century in our new exhibition ‘Victoria & Albert: Our Lives in Watercolour’, which opens at The Queen's Gallery, Palace of Holyroodhouse, tomorrow.

#comingsoon #openingtomorrow #launch #onthisday #birthday #watercolour #watercolourpainting #watercolor #watercolourart #watercolor_painting #watercolour_art #watercolourpaint #artwork #art #painting #paintings #paint #artist #artlover #Edinburgh #EdinburghScotland #Edinburghlife #DiscoverEdinburgh #Edinburghhighlights #VisitEdinburgh #visitscotland #foreveredinburgh #queenvictoria #exhibition
19h​
https://www.instagram.com/p/COF1bc8At9v/
 
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