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  #1  
Old 10-07-2016, 12:44 PM
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Queen Victoria's Sons: General Discussion

Hi all, I'm not sure if there is a thread dedicated to all her sons and apologise if there is (maybe someone can link the thread) but I thought it would be nice to have a thread to talk about them altogether.

I've noticed that Affie and Leo both wear the same triple ring and I'm sure that Bertie used to wear one too when he was younger. Has anyone else noticed this and does anyone know if Art wore a ring like his brothers too?

I will post photos as examples of the rings as soon as I figure out how to
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Old 10-07-2016, 09:07 PM
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That's very intriguing, Lady Alice. I can't say I've studied the hands of these three Princes in any depth, except to observe that they did wear a ring or several rings at various times. It was apparently quite fashionable for dandyish young males in the 1860's and '70's..

I know Prince Alfred when he was a young man wore a huge number of rings. There's a studio photo somewhere around, (can't remember where I saw it) taken in Melbourne when he was on the tour of Australia where there was that attempt on his life, and he wears at least two rings on each finger of his hands in the photo.

I don't know about Prince Arthur. Except for a pinkie ring, I can't really see him wearing large numbers of rings in his later army career, which he was deadly serious about. Perhaps the Royal Navy was different! I wonder whether the particular ring you mention had anything to do with Freemasonry? Leo was a Freemason, and all three of his surviving brothers reached the highest ranks in that organisation, ( hardly surprisingly, perhaps) especially the POW.

http://www.collectorsweekly.com/fine...raternal-rings
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Old 11-06-2016, 01:35 PM
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I Just thing of which brother got along with whom as this was discussed on the Edward thread.

Bertie
Vicky- yes
Alice - close
Affie- close
Helena- unknown
Louise- no
Arthur- sometimes
Leo- no
Beatrice - no

Affie
Vicky- unknown
Bertie-close
Alice-yes
Helena-close
Louise-yes
Arthur-unknown
Leo-yes
Beatrice-sometimes

Arthur
Vicky-unknown
Bertie- sometimes
Alice-unknown
Helena-yes
Louise-yes
Leo-close
Beatrice-no

Leo
Vicky-unknown
Bertie-no
Alice-yes
Affie-yes
Helena-yes
Louise-close
Arthur-close
Beatrice-no
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Old 11-06-2016, 03:31 PM
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That's pretty correct, I think, except that Vicky often played the role of adviser and friend to her much younger siblings, including her brothers. She was in a way the glue, the go-between that they relied on increasingly, after Alice died and their mother aged, especially.

Of course they were all adults and doing their own thing most of the time and because of her situation as 'the English woman' at the Prussian court, they didn't impose themselves often on her at Berlin. They mostly met elsewhere, but I do think she tried her best to help her siblings if they needed her.

Of course she was gone from the house, married and in Germany by the time the three youngest children were in the schoolroom. Beatrice was only a baby.

I think there was always that special closeness between the oldest four, as they were so near in age, and could remember their parents, Albert especially, as young, energetic and more carefree than they were later.

I always think that Leopold especially missed his father's love and attention. His mother's fussing over and rule of his life would have been greatly decreased if Albert had died even fifteen to twenty years later than he did.
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Old 11-06-2016, 03:46 PM
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I feel sorry for Bertie as v&a almost made his life seem pointless. The poor man didn't have a purpose and anything he made his name in which was work oriented it got taken off him and given to someone else. It's no wonder he became the way he did.
I'm sure Affie was in the wrong profession. He might of enjoyed the navy as a young lad but he was painfully shy and socially awakard which must be hard after being separated from his family and missing out in family occasions it would double the stress, no wonder he found comfort in a bottle.

I'm sure Arthur was no angel but he knew how to play the game and keep his cards close to his chest.

Leo is Victoria but a male version
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Old 11-06-2016, 04:01 PM
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Agree about Bertie. They tried their best but were so blind. (Of course there was no such thing as child psychology then).

Affie was certainly a heavy drinker in his adult life but he wasn't alone in that. Many drank a lot, unfortunately. I think it was Admiral Sir John Fisher who met Affie by chance in England after he had become Duke of Saxe Coburg and Gotha. They shared a railway carriage. Fisher reported that Affie talked incessantly about the navy, how bored he was with ducal duties in Germany, and displayed a mordant sense of humour by stating that one day he would be found with his throat cut!
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Old 11-07-2016, 01:53 PM
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Did Affie and Arthur get along does anybody know? I know that sometimes got along with Bertie and he was close to Leo
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Old 11-07-2016, 07:50 PM
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I don't think Arthur and Alfred were particularly close actually. Arthur was army-mad, Affie devoted to the Royal Navy. There was almost six years difference in age between them and that's a gulf in childhood. Affie being sent away in his early teens for naval training provoked a rare blast against the beloved Albert in his wife's diaries, as she bemoaned her son being cast away from his parents, brothers and sisters and happy home. She inferred that Albert could have deferred this if he'd wanted to!

So Alfred was away from home for long stretches while Arthur was growing up. I believe he was in the Mediterranean Command when Arthur left school and entered Army training. Arthur went to Canada, Egypt and spent long years in India subsequently, while Alfred was at his naval duties, usually around the Mediterranean. Of course they would have met if they were both in England/Scotland at the same time, would have attended family christenings, weddings and funerals and so forth (though it's odd Alfred didn't turn up at Leo's funeral) but no, I don't think they were close.

I believe Bertie's primary relationships with his siblings were with Vicky, Alice and Affie. Affie's were with Vicky, Alice and Bertie, though the two brothers saw less and less of each other as the years went by. Arthur did love his younger invalid brother Leo, and like others in the family sometimes enjoyed Louise's wit.

However, Arthur to me, and I may be wrong, doesn't seem to have had a very close relationship with any of his siblings after Leo's death, and even with Leo his army career and his own family came first. He lived abroad (in India) for such a long time as well.
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Old 11-08-2016, 01:46 PM
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It seems everyone hits a blank wall with Arthur and it's hardly surprising there is no in depth biography of him.

I love reading about Arthur and Leo's realtionship when they were young. I thought it was Arthur not affie that couldn't go to Leo's funeral.

Is there any other photos of the brothers together or film footage of the three surviving brothers?
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Old 11-08-2016, 02:45 PM
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I'm sure someone on the Forum would know of any film and/or photos. They all must have ridden, you would have thought, in their mother's Diamond Jubilee Procession,, though perhaps Affie was too ill by then.

Only the Prince of Wales was at Leo's funeral. Arthur most probably had an excuse. He would have been serving in either Egypt or India at the time and couldn't get away. I don't know why Alfred wasn't there. Illness, couldn't get away from his duties in the Mediterranean? Don't know.

Yes, Arthur is quite the man of mystery compared to his brothers. There must be a worthwhile story there. His marriage to Princess Louise whose father was an absolute pig, he and Leo, the relationship with Leonie L, service in the East, his daughters and their marriages, especially Margaret's, his strange grandson and said grandson's even stranger premature death. My goodness, there should be a few chapters there as well as his childhood, parents and closeness (or not) with his other siblings.
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Old 11-08-2016, 02:55 PM
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I am really interested in Victoria & Albert and their many children.

Is here a definitive biography that anyone would like to recommend?
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Old 11-08-2016, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emme View Post
I am really interested in Victoria & Albert and their many children.

Is here a definitive biography that anyone would like to recommend?
I really loved Bertie by Jane Ridley

The mystery of princess Louise by Lucinda hawksley

Alfred by john van der kirst

Queen Victoria's youngest son by Charlotte zeepvat
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Old 07-16-2017, 02:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyAlice View Post
It seems everyone hits a blank wall with Arthur and it's hardly surprising there is no in depth biography of him.

I love reading about Arthur and Leo's realtionship when they were young. I thought it was Arthur not affie that couldn't go to Leo's funeral.

?
I'm sure I have seen a biography of Arthur many years ago when I worked I a bookshop. It may not be very in depth but it looked quite a big one,..
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Old 07-16-2017, 03:24 AM
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It was probably this one, published in 1993. I haven't read it but it looks big, and pricey especially on Amazon. I'd be looking and ringing second hand bookshops first.

https://www.amazon.com/Witness-Centu...ustomerReviews
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Old 07-16-2017, 03:29 AM
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That's It
I used to work in a big bookshop, with a royal connextion.. and it was out then In the early 90s. Noble Frankland is I think part of the team behind the WWII series that was so big in the 1970s or 80s a big long history of the 2nd WW.
So I don't know how good it is as a bio but it is CERTAINLY is a big heavy book
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Old 07-16-2017, 04:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
It was probably this one, published in 1993. I haven't read it but it looks big, and pricey especially on Amazon. I'd be looking and ringing second hand bookshops first.

https://www.amazon.com/Witness-Centu...ustomerReviews
I found your book on ABE Books, cost is around $15.00, used and in great condition.........sounds pretty good.
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Old 07-16-2017, 04:34 AM
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That sounds great! Thanks, M!
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Old 08-17-2017, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyAlice View Post
I feel sorry for Bertie as v&a almost made his life seem pointless. The poor man didn't have a purpose and anything he made his name in which was work oriented it got taken off him and given to someone else. It's no wonder he became the way he did.
Now, that's a sad story. Bertie had so much pressure on him as the heir, and he could never connect with his parents. He did some pretty nasty things as an adult though, that will make my sympathy for him limited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyAlice View Post
I love reading about Arthur and Leo's relationship when they were young.
Both of them became great grandfathers to our current king Carl XVI Gustaf. That is the funny thing about royal history: everybody is connected to each other.
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Old 08-17-2017, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by M. Payton View Post
I found your book on ABE Books, cost is around $15.00, used and in great condition.........sounds pretty good.
Good find, Payton. Abebooks.com is my favorite website next to TRF, of course. It is antiquarian bookstores in "the English-speaking" world. You can search by author or by book title and order a book from all over the place. I've ordered from England and Canada as well as here in the US. A great resource for hard to find and out of print books.
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