Queen Victoria and Haemophilia


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
My point is that the Royal Genepool was very narrow. If you think about the fact that Victoria's children married into most of the main royal houses of Europe, whose children then intermarried as cousins, it's courting health problems, especially if is an ongoing pattern.
 
5 April 2009
Do you have a source to indicate that Kraft and Ferdinand had hemophilia?
arrdoc
 
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Those same questions are precisely why the hemophilia story is flawed.
This is a complicated matter and I hope I understood it right (please correct me if I’m wrong):
After checking Wikipedia I understand that the germ cells are those cells within the body that produce the eggs or sperms. If the faulty gene originates “almost "exclusivelyin male germ cells", that would NOT mean that the mutation occurs in the male child, as suggested in the quoted post. The mutation would occur during the production of the sperm inside the father. This means that a man who is not haemophilic could, by spontaneous mutation in his germ cells, produce sperm with a defective x-chromosome. So the daughter would be the first carrier of the gene, and male grandchildren could be the first to suffer from haemophilia (with a chance of 50 %), while female grandchildren have a 50% chance to be carriers of the gene.

I think this is backed up by the article Factor VIII gene inversions causing severe hemophilia A originate almost exclusively in male germ cells -- Rosslter et al. 3 (7): 1035 -- Human Molecular Genetics (link posted in #89). It says: “In all 20 informative cases in which the inversion originated in a maternal grandparent, DNA polymorphism analysis determined that it occurred in the male germline. In addition, all but one of 50 mothers of sporadic cases due to an Inversion were carriers.”

This means that a non-haemophilic Duke of Kent could, by spontaneous mutation, have produced sperm with a defective x-chromosome. Thus Q Victoria might well have been the first carrier of the gene, with Leopold being the first family member to suffer from it, and several of her daughters to be carriers. So, there is no need to explain other cases of haemophilia in the family as “misdiagnosed”.

Additionally the Wikipedia article on haemophilia states “Spontaneous mutations account for about 33% of all cases of haemophilia A. About 30% of cases of Hemophilia B are the result of a spontaneous gene mutation”. That is A LOT!! In nearly 1 in 3 cases of haemophilia it seems to be due to recent gene mutation and not due to the genes running in the family!

Of course, this does not rule out other explanations. But spontaneous mutation is not at all an unlikely one, imo.
 
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royal hemophilia

6 April 2009
That is correct. You might wish to consult my recent book, Royal Maladies: Inherited Illnesses in the Ruling Houses of Europe, trafford.com/08-0070.
arrdoc
 
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-> KRAFT, 9TH PRINCE OF HOHENLOHE-LAGENBURG -> PRINCESS XENIA OF HOHENLOHE-LANGEBURG -> FERDINAND SOLTMANN.
24 April 2009
Camilo:
Do you have a source to document hemophilia in Ferdinand Soltmann?
ARRDOC
 
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There's no need for anyone to panic about Prince Charles, Prince William, or Prince Harry carrying the gene for hemophilia. They don't have hemophilia, therefore they can't have the gene for it. Here's the thing about males and sex-linked traits. Either a male has the trait, or he doesn't. He can't be a carrier. The gene for hemophilia is on the X chromosome. Males only get one X chromosome, and it has to come from their mother. They get their Y chromosome from their fathers, and the Y chromosome doesn't have the gene for hemophilia on it. Females can be carriers without exhibiting the symptoms of the disease because they have 2 X chromosomes. If only one of the 2 X chromosomes has the gene for hemophilia, then the woman would be a carrier, but not have hemophilia herself.
Unless Diana, Princess of Wales was a carrier for hemophilia (pretty darn unlikely in my estimation), then William and Harry can't have the gene. Queen Elizabeth II isn't a carrier because she is descended from Edward VII, who didn't get the hemophilia gene from Queen Victoria.
I'd suggest that anyone who needs more information about all of this contact their nearest high school biology teacher who can give a quick run down of the patterns of heredity.
Hemophilia is inherited in a similar pattern to color-blindness. I hope this helped slightly. I'd be much clearer if I had my Hemophilia power-point and a white board!
 
I'd suggest that anyone who needs more information about all of this contact their nearest high school biology teacher who can give a quick run down of the patterns of heredity.
Hemophilia is inherited in a similar pattern to color-blindness. I hope this helped slightly. I'd be much clearer if I had my Hemophilia power-point and a white board!


I have had a number of heated discussion with the biology teachers at my school who all claim that Charles, William and Harry could have the disease as direct descendents from Victoria (through Philip whose grandmother's sister was a definite carrier, whose great-grandmother was also a definite carrier but we don't know if his mother was).

When I argue that Philip never showed any symptons and served in the military the reply has always been 'that is no proof'.

This hasn't been with one biology teacher by the way but multiple over 20 years or so.

They agree that William and Harry wouldn't get it from Diana but could have him from Philip.
 
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Even if Prince Philip had been secretly haemophilic (which is less than likely), he couldn't have possibly passed it to his children: males can suffer from haemophilia but not carry it.
Same goes for Queen Elizabeth: she is a male-line descendant of Queen Victoria, so she couldn't have had the disease either.
 
Some biology teachers are idiots, actually! (especially ones who aren't also closet royalty geeks!) Prince Philip couldn't pass on hemophilia to his sons, and therefore his sons' children simply because he passes on his Y chromosome to his sons. The Y chromosome doesn't carry the gene for hemophilia, so the gene doesn't get passed on to his sons. In the whole family tree of Queen Victoria's direct descendents, the only person who was at no risk of the hemophilia that QV carried was Prince Leopold (Duke of Albany)'s son. He would have only been at risk if his mother was a carrier, and then he would have been the absolutely most unlikest child in this whole line!!
Queen Elizabeth II would have only picked up the gene for hemophilia from her mother's line, which may have been possible, but statistically pretty unlikely. The other thing to remember is that even if a woman is a carrier of hemophilia, each of her sons only (?!) has a 50% chance of inheriting the gene from her.
For only one of QV's four sons to actually have the disease was beating the odds, slightly.
 
I'm pretty sure that if Diana Spencer were a likely carrier, that the marriage would not have happened, and there was certainly enough evidence about her family's health issues for this to have been easily spotted.
 
Iowabelle, I agree completely. I think Diana was as thoroughly medically checked out before the engagement was announced as the astronauts who landed on the moon!! I also figure that her children and Sarah Ferguson's children have also been DNA tested so that any paternity questions in the family have already been answered.
The big question now is, has Kate Middleton had a thorough medical check yet?
 
The truth is that the gene for hemophilia is found in the mitachondrial DNA as is everything but basic paternity. Mitachondrial DNA cannot be passed from Mother to son, but only mother to daughter. That is why, though an immediate blood relation to Tssar Nicholas II, Prince Philip's blood could not be used to identify him. Because on Nicholas' side, Philip is a direct heir by MALE descendants. However, his blood was used to identify Tsarina Alexandra, because he is a direct descendant of her by female descent.
 
On Nicholas II maternal side there are only a few people who still have his mitocondrial DNA; they are the granddaughter of his niece Princess Irina Yusupova, four Princesses of SchleswigHolstein, granddaughters of Nicholas' cousin Alexandra of Hannover and the Duke of Fife.
 
The truth is that the gene for hemophilia is found in the mitachondrial DNA as is everything but basic paternity. Mitachondrial DNA cannot be passed from Mother to son, but only mother to daughter. That is why, though an immediate blood relation to Tssar Nicholas II, Prince Philip's blood could not be used to identify him. Because on Nicholas' side, Philip is a direct heir by MALE descendants. However, his blood was used to identify Tsarina Alexandra, because he is a direct descendant of her by female descent.
I think you are mixing up two completely different issues here.
It is universally acknowledged that the gene for hemophilia is a classic example for a gene that is situated on the x-chromosome. There is no connection between hemophilia and the mitochondrial DNA used for identification of Czars family. And the hemophilia gene did not play a role in identifying them.
 
On Nicholas II maternal side there are only a few people who still have his mitocondrial DNA; they are the granddaughter of his niece Princess Irina Yusupova, four Princesses of SchleswigHolstein, granddaughters of Nicholas' cousin Alexandra of Hannover and the Duke of Fife.

yes....thats correct mafan !! but didnt the four princesses of schleswig marry and has issue !! i know the eldest princess elisabeth married prince ferdinand heinrich of ysenburg and had a son born in 1976 - prince johann-georg.

what is more interesting is the fact, due to their mitocondrial DNA, some of the adove helped the scientists DR pavel ivanov and peter gill to identify the bones found in sideria as those of the tsar and his family.
the duke of fife donated a blood sample, under the condition that he remained anonymous, but somehow the fact was leaked out.
mrs xenia sfiris also gave a blood sample!!. (the granddaugther of princess irina).
it is not known to myself if the schleswigs were asked and refused give a blood sample or not !!
btw the tsars nephew tikhon kulikovsky who was still living at the time, was asked to give a blood sample, but he refused to cooperate with the scientists. he believed the whole bones business to a hoax !! :)
 
Princess Elisabeth of Ysenburg has 3 children, I think 3 sons, and her youngest sister Sibylla has children too, I guess three sons and a daughter.
 
btw the tsars nephew tikhon kulikovsky who was still living at the time, was asked to give a blood sample, but he refused to cooperate with the scientists. he believed the whole bones business to a hoax !! :)
I was under the impression that Tikon and Guri thought that people didn't believe them that their mother was GD Olga Alexandrovna and that is why they didn't cooperate.
 
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hi... what gives you this impression...... as i have not heared of this before !! but still i have not really read up on this branch of the russian royal family.........i would very interested to learn more please....:flowers:
 
:previous:
hi... what gives you this impression...... as i have not heared of this before !! but still i have not really read up on this branch of the russian royal family.........i would very interested to learn more please....:flowers:
Read Massie: The romanovs: The Final Chapter
and Ian Vorres "The last Grand Duchess."
 
update on my post

btw the tsars nephew tikhon kulikovsky who was still living at the time, was asked to give a blood sample, but he refused to cooperate with the scientists. he believed the whole bones business to a hoax !! :)

apparently tikhon believed that the scientists was only using the bones as an excuse to get a blood sample from him, to prove that he was not of royal blood.......the scienists spent hours (and their own cash) talking to him and his wife over the phone to convince him otherwise to no avail !!

the burning question is why should anyone wish to prove he was not of royal blood and what are the grounds for anyone to suspect this ? :)
 
Well, he surely was the son of Olga, who surely was the daughter of Maria Fedorovna, who surely was the daughter of Queen Louisa of Denmark, who surely was the daughter of Louise Charlotte of Hesse-Kassel, who surely was the daughter of Sophia of Denmark, and go on...so Tikhon surely was of royal blood...
 
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hi mate,
i think you may be missing the point here. it would appear that some people may have grounds to believe that the grand duchess ogla was not the mother of tikhon and guri.......if so, well the two brothers was not of royal blood !!
what i am asking is..... on what grounds ? .......:flowers:
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or put it another why should tikhon think that people had this opinon of his and his brothers parentage......?
 
:previous:
Who thinks this? And what are their grounds. Going to have to ask for sources here. This is a serious charge, otherwise, conjecture.
 
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:previous:
hi
your qestions adove are exactly the questions what i am asking !!. it would appear you dont understand this !!

the only two sources i have are yourself
I was under the impression that Tikon and Guri thought that people didn't believe them that their mother was GD Olga Alexandrovna and that is why they didn't cooperate.

and my book -the romamovs the final chapter page 93 / 94.

otherwise i know nothing.....that is why i am asking the questions in my adove posts !!

imo the brothers are the sons of the grand duchess.....i have no reason to think otherwise.....

come to think of it.....it was you who introduced this mix into my discussion with my friend mafan.........

i now consider the matter closed......thanks russophile !!
 
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:previous:

the burning question is why should anyone wish to prove he was not of royal blood and what are the grounds for anyone to suspect this ? :)
And for clairification, I was questioning this post. I had not heard of any 3rd party that had done this.
And I'm sure Warren will be happy to put this to bed. :D
 
Well, you brought this upon yourself. You stated that Tikon and Guri didn't take part in the DNA sampling because they
"thought that people didn't believe...that their mother was Grand Duchess Olga."

Jonnydep quite reasonably asked why anyone would question the fact they were Olga's sons, so why would they think the sampling was "directed" at themselves and so decline to cooperate?

From this point the discussion turned itself inside out and you were in effect querying a logical inference (posed as a question) drawn from your own statement.

So, to put it clearly... Tikon and Guri Koulikovsky thought that [some] people doubted their mother was GD Olga. Why would they think this? Both sons appear in the Romanov genealogies for anyone who cares to check. And why would they assume that the DNA sampling was connected to this "doubt" about their maternity?
 
So, to put it clearly... Tikon and Guri Koulikovsky thought that [some] people doubted their mother was GD Olga. Why would they think this? Both sons appear in the Romanov genealogies for anyone who cares to check. And why would they assume that the DNA sampling was connected to this "doubt" about their maternity?

The only logical answer is that they knew something about their birth that us common mortal people don't know, and that we could not know...
Imo it's a nonsense...
 
To beat a dead horse, here's the quote from Massie's "Fate of the Romanovs"
Mr. (Tikhon) Kulikovsky, however, refused to cooperate. When Ivanov wrote to him, explaining the purposes of the investigation and asking for a blood sample, he received no reply. Ivanov tried again through Bishop Basil Rodzianko of the Orthodox Church in America, and, finally, through Metropolitian Vitaly, the head of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad. Ultimately, Kulikovsky replied to Ivanov. "He told me he believed this whole bones business was a hoax," Ivanov recalled. "He said, 'How can you, a Russian man, be working in England, which was so cruel to the tsar and to the Russian monarchy?' He said, 'For politican reasons, I will never give you a sample of my blood or hair or anything.'" Ivanoov was disappointed, but he did not give up. "At that time, it was critical," Ivanov said. "He was the closest relative. I spent a lot of my own money talking with him and his wife by telephone, assuring them that I was not a KGB agent. And they replied, 'Then probably the only reason for your investigations is to prove that Tikhon Nicholaevitch is not of royal blood.'"

So my query was, was there somebody else that was making this claim besides Tikhon and Guri? So obviously, yes, the discussion turned inside out and I apologize.
 
It would appear to me that Tikhon was suspicious of the reason for seeking DNA samples from him because Ivanov stated he spent a lot of time assuring Tikhon that he, Ivanov, was not KGB. When one considers the claims of KGB involvement in assassinations by exposure to deadly chemicals (wasn't there a diplomat who died in London and the attempt on the minister in Ukraine?), perhaps this paranoia on Tikhon's part is understandable.
 
You're perfectly right, Vasillisos Markos; his fear of the KGB can explain his refusal to the test; what is a total nonsense is the fear to see proved that he was not of royal blood...
 
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