Queen Victoria and Haemophilia - Page 8

**MAfan** · #**141** 09-24-2009, 04:19 PM

Well, he surely was the son of Olga, who surely was the daughter of Maria Fedorovna, who surely was the daughter of Queen Louisa of Denmark, who surely was the daughter of Louise Charlotte of Hesse-Kassel, who surely was the daughter of Sophia of Denmark, and go on...so Tikhon surely was of royal blood...

jonnydep · #**142** 09-24-2009, 06:39 PM

hi mate,
i think you may be missing the point here. it would appear that some people may have grounds to believe that the grand duchess ogla was not the mother of tikhon and guri.......if so, well the two brothers was not of royal blood !!
what i am asking is..... on what grounds ? .......

edit
or put it another why should tikhon think that people had this opinon of his and his brothers parentage......?

Russophile · #**143** 09-24-2009, 07:30 PM

Who thinks this? And what are their grounds. Going to have to ask for sources here. This is a serious charge, otherwise, conjecture.

jonnydep · #**144** 09-25-2009, 03:36 AM

hi
your qestions adove are exactly the questions what i am asking !!. it would appear you dont understand this !!

the only two sources i have are yourself

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russophile

I was under the impression that Tikon and Guri thought that people didn't believe them that their mother was GD Olga Alexandrovna and that is why they didn't cooperate.

and my book -the romamovs the final chapter page 93 / 94.

otherwise i know nothing.....that is why i am asking the questions in my adove posts !!

imo the brothers are the sons of the grand duchess.....i have no reason to think otherwise.....

come to think of it.....it was you who introduced this mix into my discussion with my friend mafan.........

i now consider the matter closed......thanks russophile !!

Russophile · #**145** 09-25-2009, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonnydep

the burning question is why should anyone wish to prove he was not of royal blood and what are the grounds for anyone to suspect this ?

And for clairification, I was questioning this post. I had not heard of any 3rd party that had done this.
And I'm sure Warren will be happy to put this to bed.

**Warren** · #**146** 09-26-2009, 07:06 AM

Well, you brought this upon yourself. You stated that Tikon and Guri didn't take part in the DNA sampling because they [quote] "thought that people didn't believe...that their mother was Grand Duchess Olga."

Jonnydep quite reasonably asked why anyone would question the fact they were Olga's sons, so why would they think the sampling was "directed" at themselves and so decline to cooperate?

From this point the discussion turned itself inside out and you were in effect querying a logical inference (posed as a question) drawn from your own statement.

So, to put it clearly... Tikon and Guri Koulikovsky thought that [some] people doubted their mother was GD Olga. Why would they think this? Both sons appear in the Romanov genealogies for anyone who cares to check. And why would they assume that the DNA sampling was connected to this "doubt" about their maternity?

**MAfan** · #**147** 09-26-2009, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warren

So, to put it clearly... Tikon and Guri Koulikovsky thought that [some] people doubted their mother was GD Olga. Why would they think this? Both sons appear in the Romanov genealogies for anyone who cares to check. And why would they assume that the DNA sampling was connected to this "doubt" about their maternity?

The only logical answer is that they knew something about their birth that us common mortal people don't know, and that we could not know...
Imo it's a nonsense...

Russophile · #**148** 09-27-2009, 12:05 AM

To beat a dead horse, here's the quote from Massie's "Fate of the Romanovs"
Mr. (Tikhon) Kulikovsky, however, refused to cooperate. When Ivanov wrote to him, explaining the purposes of the investigation and asking for a blood sample, he received no reply. Ivanov tried again through Bishop Basil Rodzianko of the Orthodox Church in America, and, finally, through Metropolitian Vitaly, the head of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad. Ultimately, Kulikovsky replied to Ivanov. "He told me he believed this whole bones business was a hoax," Ivanov recalled. "He said, 'How can you, a Russian man, be working in England, which was so cruel to the tsar and to the Russian monarchy?' He said, 'For politican reasons, I will never give you a sample of my blood or hair or anything.'" Ivanoov was disappointed, but he did not give up. "At that time, it was critical," Ivanov said. "He was the closest relative. I spent a lot of my own money talking with him and his wife by telephone, assuring them that I was not a KGB agent. And they replied, 'Then probably the only reason for your investigations is to prove that Tikhon Nicholaevitch is not of royal blood.'"

So my query was, was there somebody else that was making this claim besides Tikhon and Guri? So obviously, yes, the discussion turned inside out and I apologize.

Vasillisos Markos · #**149** 09-27-2009, 06:26 AM

It would appear to me that Tikhon was suspicious of the reason for seeking DNA samples from him because Ivanov stated he spent a lot of time assuring Tikhon that he, Ivanov, was not KGB. When one considers the claims of KGB involvement in assassinations by exposure to deadly chemicals (wasn't there a diplomat who died in London and the attempt on the minister in Ukraine?), perhaps this paranoia on Tikhon's part is understandable.

**MAfan** · #**150** 09-27-2009, 08:54 AM

You're perfectly right, Vasillisos Markos; his fear of the KGB can explain his refusal to the test; what is a total nonsense is the fear to see proved that he was not of royal blood...

jonnydep · #**151** 09-27-2009, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russophile

the discussion turned inside out and I apologize.

dear russophile.....your apology is accepted.
however i feel that i was as much to blame as yourself......0n reflection i should have perhaps mentioned my sources in my update on my post, as this may have avoided our missunderstanding !!
i wish to apologize too....

pacomartin · #**152** 10-02-2009, 06:12 PM

There is a page with the statistics and some lists of the descendants of Queen Victoria .
I tried to calculate how many descendants were diagnosed with hemophilia before Queen Victoria died. I think it was eight (although most outlived her). It certainly was enough to cause the elderly queen a great deal of distress. Ironically she was particularly concerned with good blood.

pacomartin · #**153** 10-03-2009, 12:57 AM

Quote

Quote:

Does anybody know if there is present decendants og Queen Victoria who suffers from Hemophelia?
Betina

I am not aware of a present case, but some of them died as late as WW2. There is no way to predict how many males in any given family will be stricken with hemophilia, and as the gene can remain hidden for as many as six generations, some parents are baffled when told that their son is a victim of the disease. As Queen Victoria now has 7 generations of descendants (the oldest child in the 7th generation is Felicitas von Reiche who was born in 1986, so an 8th generation should be along shortly). Since she has over one thousand descendants, and it may have skipped several generations, the disease may not be gone.
-------------
Genes can spontaneously mutate, which appears to be the case with either Victoria herself or her father, the Duke of Kent, who passed the X chromosome to her at conception. Although it is possible that she received it from an illegitimate father, it would mean that her mother took as a lover, a man actively suffering from hemophilia. In 1819 most of these men never lived to age of 21, and if they did they would be an unlikely choice for an illicit sexual partner. Besides Victoria did not have the disease herself.

Russophile · #**154** 10-03-2009, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonnydep

dear russophile.....your apology is accepted.

i wish to apologize too....

Well I feel warm and fuzzy, do you??

Anyway, pacomartin has raised some interesting questions that I don't have answers to. . . .very interesting!

Grace Angel · #**155** 10-03-2009, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAfan

You're perfectly right, Vasillisos Markos; his fear of the KGB can explain his refusal to the test; what is a total nonsense is the fear to see proved that he was not of royal blood...

It didn't really matter if Olga's sons were of royal blood anyway since they weren't products of an equal marriage ( Olga's husband wasn't royal, nor noble), and thus had no inheiritence rights to anything, on their mother's or father's side. Had they been of an equal marriage, they wouldn't had had really strong rights to the Russian throne anyway, being the children of a daughter, not a son. It's not like there was any inheiritence issue involved.Olga's sons were defintely her sons though, I don't doubt. Tikon and Guri had lived with the aftermath of the Russian Revolution, and I think this made them more insecure and suspicious than they would otherwise have been. I think they were more insecure due to that.

**MAfan** · #**156** 10-04-2009, 06:19 AM

But maybe a reason exist: it is true that they couldn't inherit the throne or titles, but they were the heirs of their mother, and their mother was a daughter of Tzar Alexander III. This mean, better this would have meant, a lot of money.
Being Tikon and Guri the only children of Olga they were also her heirs; that made them able to inherit her money.

Grace Angel · #**157** 10-05-2009, 10:39 PM

That's true, I hadn't thought of that. It's rather off topic to this thread, but I don't think that anything regarding the parentage of Olga's sons should be read into her son's remarks. I think he was just paranoid as it was perhaps easy to be for someone who lost their birthright (sure, he would never have been a member of the IF, but he and his brothers as Olga's sons would have gotten a comfortable lifestyle and more than likely titles) before they were born. He saw anything as a threat to what he had as Olga's son, although it was much less than he would have likely had had the revolution not happened.

jonnydep · #**158** 10-06-2009, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonnydep

it would appear that some people may have grounds to believe that the grand duchess ogla was not the mother of tikhon and guri......or put it another why should tikhon think that people had this opinon of his and his brothers parentage......?

i cant help wondering if it was due to the circumstances of their births !!.
a, the grand duchess had given birth rather late in life to her sons (olga was aged 35 and 37 years old at the time of her sons birth). though this was the result of a second marriage.
b, there was no doctor present at the birth of tikhon.
c, guri was born in a peasants hut in nova minskaia.
d, both sons were born during the revolution, a time when the imperial family would try their upmost to prevent any personal wealth going over to the new state, then or sometime in the future etc

yes, i think you may agree as to why some people may have grounds to believe that both sons could well be "spurious children " of the grand duchess !!

i hasten to add ...this is purely conjecture on my part !!

jonnydep · #**159** 10-06-2009, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grace Angel

It's rather off topic to this thread

yes i agree with you grace angel its quite true....... i had expected the posts concerning this topic,to be moved to some other thread concernig the russian royals.....