Princess Victoria ("Toria"), daughter of Edward VII & Queen Alexandra (1868-1935)


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I don't think Christian was interested in her considering their siblings later married.

Christian was interested in her. I can't remember where I read about it, but he wanted to marry her but she turned him down and her parents were disappointed. Also, there seems to be a picture of her on his desk that's on display in the Amalienborg museum.

She charmed most of her male cousins. Unfortunately, she couldn't marry the Romanov cousins because their church was against first cousins marrying.
I also believe one of Queen Mary's brothers was interested in her too.
 
Christian was interested in her. I can't remember where I read about it, but he wanted to marry her but she turned him down and her parents were disappointed. Also, there seems to be a picture of her on his desk that's on display in the Amalienborg museum.

She charmed most of her male cousins. Unfortunately, she couldn't marry the Romanov cousins because their church was against first cousins marrying.
I also believe one of Queen Mary's brothers was interested in her too.

Perhaps, she got a bit of a thrill at turning down all these advances in any case some would say that someone of her position would never find someone suitable and why should be settle?
 
I also believe one of Queen Mary's brothers was interested in her too.

Frank wasn't interested in her sister and I've never heard of any interest in Toria, Alge was much younger and married Alice of Albany, and I've never heard of Dolly being interested. Is there a source?

With all these potential suitors perhaps Toria didn't initially want to get married after all? (Motherdear couldn't have objected to them all...) Or maybe she was like some of her other relatives and simply didn't "look at anybody suitable". Falling in love with Rosebery and then complaining decades later how he was "perfect" and they weren't allowed to marry can also be both an excuse and a crutch.

Edit: According to this very extensive site about the DRF, after Maud and Carl's wedding in July 1896 and while Christian was dealing with a breakup with Marguerite d'Orleans, "It seems that he was somewhat consoled by his cousin Princess Victoria, daugther of Queen Alexandra. There seems to have been some understatnding between the two of them, because she writes a very tender and warm letter to him at christmas. But nothing came out of it - Victoria remained unmarried and a informal lady-in-waiting for her mother, Queen Alexandra, until she passed away i 1925." Glucksburg: Christian X's first love: Marguerite D'Orleans

No proposal there.
 
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No, I’ve never read that any of Queen Mary’s brothers were interested in Toria either. I know Maud had a huge crush on Frank, who showed no interest at all.

Toria did make herself a bit of a Martyr as she got older, though it certainly wouldn’t have been much fun being handmaiden to her elderly and very deaf mother for life. However, she may have not wanted to leave Britain and rule over a foreign Court.

Like her sisters Toria was very much attached to childhood associations and this was something Alexandra had encouraged. Maybe she was attracted to Rosebery, felt it was an excellent compromise and was crushed when the match was discouraged? However, she certainly didn’t fight for the match in the way her sister Louise had for Macduff so perhaps she just decided to passively settle for life at home.
 
Frank wasn't interested in her sister and I've never heard of any interest in Toria, Alge was much younger and married Alice of Albany, and I've never heard of Dolly being interested. Is there a source?

I think I got this information from a blog. If I find it I will post it.

With all these potential suitors perhaps Toria didn't initially want to get married after all? (Motherdear couldn't have objected to them all...) Or maybe she was like some of her other relatives and simply didn't "look at anybody suitable". Falling in love with Rosebery and then complaining decades later how he was "perfect" and they weren't allowed to marry can also be both an excuse and a crutch.

She is interesting. I think Alix got blamed too much for "trapping" Toria.
 
Frank wasn't interested in her sister and I've never heard of any interest in Toria, Alge was much younger and married Alice of Albany, and I've never heard of Dolly being interested. Is there a source?

With all these potential suitors perhaps Toria didn't initially want to get married after all? (Motherdear couldn't have objected to them all...) Or maybe she was like some of her other relatives and simply didn't "look at anybody suitable". Falling in love with Rosebery and then complaining decades later how he was "perfect" and they weren't allowed to marry can also be both an excuse and a crutch.

E=.

Motherdear DID object enough. She did not want her daughters to get married at all, and would not make any effort to get them husbands. Victoria might have fought but it was kind of expected by a lot of women that one of their daughters should become the spinister lookiing after Mother, and in the Wales family, Toria was the unlucky one who didn't have enough fight in her and was expected to be the sacrifice.
 
Motherdear DID object enough. She did not want her daughters to get married at all, and would not make any effort to get them husbands. Victoria might have fought but it was kind of expected by a lot of women that one of their daughters should become the spinister lookiing after Mother, and in the Wales family, Toria was the unlucky one who didn't have enough fight in her and was expected to be the sacrifice.

I'm perfectly aware of Alexandra's attitude, but there is no way on earth she would have objected to Toria marrying Christian and seeing her daughter as Queen of Denmark, and that would have involved leaving for another country. Similarly, it's hard to imagine her objecting to any husband who would have been willing to live with them or extremely close by — how could she when Queen Victoria had already done it? Even on her "own", Alix would have coped, somehow. (This is the woman who bought a house with her sister. She was resourceful.)

Toria was an adult. Things didn't work out for her, but it's ultimately her choices and responsibility, not Motherdear's.
 
I'm perfectly aware of Alexandra's attitude, but there is no way on earth she would have objected to Toria marrying Christian and seeing her daughter as Queen of Denmark, and that would have involved leaving for another country. Similarly, it's hard to imagine her objecting to any husband who would have been willing to live with them or extremely close by — how could she when Queen Victoria had already done it? Even on her "own", Alix would have coped, somehow. (This is the woman who bought a house with her sister. She was resourceful.)

Toria was an adult. Things didn't work out for her, but it's ultimately her choices and responsibility, not Motherdear's.

of Course Alexandra could object to Toria marrying the king of Denmark - I dont know if it was ever a serious prospect but Alix didn't want any of the girls to marry and she could object to any husband. Esp since she wanted her girls near her.. marrying a prince or king from another country was a definite no no. She permitted it with Maud, but even so Maud spent a lot of time in England albeit I think mainly by her own choice. And just because Victoria grudgingly allowed Beatrice and Helena to marry German princes who lived at court, did not mean that Alix had to do the same. I would imagine that any prince who did have a fancy for Toria would be pretty reluctant unless he was very poor, to marry the daughter of such a possessive mother as Alix.
I think you are vastly underestimating how little freedom an upper class unmarried girl had, which was why some of them did marry awful men just to get away form home, if they could. And how much leeway mothers had. Alix was willing just about to let the other girls marry provided she had one daughter at home and Victoria whether because she was less amiable or attractive than the other girls or just less determined, was the reluctant sacrifice. but while people in the RF did think Aliex was beign selfish, I think they felt she had the right to have a spinster daughter
 
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I think Alix got blamed too much for "trapping" Toria.
I agree. I think that Toria had more agency than many believed.

I think you are vastly underestimating how little freedom an upper class unmarried girl had, which was why some of them did marry awful men just to get away form home, if they could. And how much leeway mothers had. Alix was willing just about to let the other girls marry provided she had one daughter at home and Victoria whether because she was less amiable or attractive than the other girls or just less determined, was the reluctant sacrifice. but while people in the RF did think Aliex was beign selfish, I think they felt she had the right to have a spinster daughter
What you are stating is that women would marry awful men just to stay home. To me it is also possible that Toria could have, after reviewing her options, decided that remaining unmarried was the better option.

My take is that she really did not want to leave the UK and would have not married anyone who would led to that result. Perhaps there was no one she found suitable amongst the foreign princes who would have relocated to the UK.

I agree with whomever stated that her pining remarks about Rosebery may have been a form of post hoc revision. On the one hand he was very rich - due to his late wife's fortune and an Earl, and there was precedent there, although that does not mean there would not have been resistance. But he was 20 years older than Toria with 4 children. I suspect that the biggest barrier would be him being a politician.

Toria was close to her brother George V and some of his children, although when gossip about them came her way, she would pass on that information to her brother.

Perhaps, the manifestation was different that Alexandra's, but I would not be surprised if Toria was clingy in her own way. Or if clingy is too strong of a word, attached to her UK relatives and living in the UK.
 
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of Course Alexandra could object to Toria marrying the king of Denmark - I dont know if it was ever a serious prospect but Alix didn't want any of the girls to marry and she could object to any husband. Esp since she wanted her girls near her.. marrying a prince or king from another country was a definite no no. She permitted it with Maud, but even so Maud spent a lot of time in England albeit I think mainly by her own choice.

And I think you are vastly underestimating Alix's Danish patriotism and love of her own family.

Sure, "could" she have objected to the possibility of Toria and Christian? I think she was even reasonably happy Maud had married Carl (and gave her very short shrift when she was homesick). Her daughter as Queen? (More excuses to visit Denmark? ;)) She would have been over. the. moon. I can safely say she wouldn't have raised the faintest peep if that one had gone through.

And just because Victoria grudgingly allowed Beatrice and Helena to marry German princes who lived at court, did not mean that Alix had to do the same. I would imagine that any prince who did have a fancy for Toria would be pretty reluctant unless he was very poor, to marry the daughter of such a possessive mother as Alix.

I also don't think you realize if Queen Victoria Herself did or did not do something, that was a major precedent. Toria "could" easily argue "But Grandmama allowed it", and Alix would not be in a position not to do the same.
 
no quite the opposite. Upper class women often married awful men just to get away from home and from being Mama's glorified maid.
I dont think that Rosebery was ever interested in Toria and even if he had been I dont think that he would have been allowed to marry her, so I think she did make out that it was a relationship that 'could not be" and indulged in a bit of sad repining.
Frankly I dont think she had many offers. I dont think that she was all that attractive, and given that Aliz's possessive nature was well known and the fate of the poor chaps who had married Bea and Helena was alos well known, even poor German princes were not all that desperate for a rich royal wife, to take her on.
 
And I think you are vastly underestimating Alix's Danish patriotism and love of her own family.

Sure, "could" she have objected to the possibility of Toria and Christian? I think she was even reasonably happy Maud had married Carl (and gave her very short shrift when she was homesick). Her daughter as Queen? (More excuses to visit Denmark? ;)) She would have been over. the. moon. I can safely say she wouldn't have raised the faintest peep if that one had gone through.



I also don't think you realize if Queen Victoria Herself did or did not do something, that was a major precedent. Toria "could" easily argue "But Grandmama allowed it", and Alix would not be in a position not to do the same.
Toria could argue till she was blue in the face but unless Q Vic intervened and pretty much ordered Alix to give way, Alex was still the mother and entitled to make decisions about her daughter. Q VIc did mention to Bertie when the girls were fairly young that Alix should be arranging marriages for them, but she never seems to have succeeded in making Alix agree to find husbands for all the girls. Bertie responded at the time that ALlix loved the girls so much that she didn't want to be parted from them and Vic seems to have given up on the idea. So if she could have pushed and told ALix taht she was selfish and that all three daughters had a right to get married, she did not do it but left them to Alix's possessiveness.
 
In her biography of George V, Jane Ridley said this about Princess Victoria:

"People wondered why Alix didn't encourage her daughters to marry, and criticised her for keeping them at home. Perhaps the reality was more complex. Suffocated by their mother's emotionalism, tormented by the intrusion of the press, desperate to avoid being always on show, the princesses retreated into ill health and eating disorders. This in turn made marriage impossible, at least for Victoria. 'She will never marry I am sure,' Queen Victoria confidently predicted, 'she is not strong enough.'"

Source: Jane Ridley, George V: Never a Dull Moment (2021), p. 130.

Whatever her reasons for not marrying, Victoria's status as her mother's only unmarried daughter made her an easy target. According to her first cousin Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, she was a "glorified maid to her mother. Many a time a talk or a game would be broken off by a message from my aunt Alix, and Toria would run like lightning, often to discover that her mother could not remember why she sent for her."

Source: Ian Vorres, The Last Grand Duchess (1964), p. 53.

She had a reputation as a troublemaker and was disliked by the younger generation. Her nephew Henry Duke of Gloucester told James Pope-Hennessy (Queen Mary's biographer) she was a "bitch of the first order," while the Duchess of Beaufort (Queen Mary's niece) said "as children they absolutely hated Princess Victoria."

Source: Hugo Vickers, ed. The Quest for Queen Mary (2018), p. 284 & 302.
 
I'm quite certain Toria could be awful, was bitchy and depressing and dreaded by many people — especially smaller ones — however this is still a great picture with her brave nephew. :cool: https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/...ncess-Victoria-of-Wales-Olav-V-King-of-Norway

Speaking of nephews, does anyone know how she became close enough to George Kent to leave him the house? (I'll have to re-read Van der Kiste if not.)
 
Could Princess Victoria look a lot older because of the heavy hats and coats she and her sister are wearing?

No, she looks older because Maud's clothes are very stylish for the flapper era and Toria's are very old-fashioned looking, similar to Queen Mary, who was not allowed to update her wardrobe post-WWI by George V (although QM put immense store on appearances and still looked regal and continually majestic).

Toria and George were very close, so perhaps she preferred not to offend him, but given there was no one actually telling her what to do, it's more likely she didn't care about how she looked, especially due to her longstanding bitterness. That's why it's sad.
 
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In her biography of George V, Jane Ridley said this about Princess Victoria:

"People wondered why Alix didn't encourage her daughters to marry, and criticised her for keeping them at home. Perhaps the reality was more complex. Suffocated by their mother's emotionalism, tormented by the intrusion of the press, desperate to avoid being always on show, the princesses retreated into ill health and eating disorders. This in turn made marriage impossible, at least for Victoria. 'She will never marry I am sure,' Queen Victoria confidently predicted, 'she is not strong enough.'"

I forgot about them being very shy and closed off. And the eating disorders explains why they were all in poor health and had heart issues.
 
I dont think that Rosebery was ever interested in Toria and even if he had been I dont think that he would have been allowed to marry her, so I think she did make out that it was a relationship that 'could not be" and indulged in a bit of sad repining.

It is said that he was one of her close friends when her mother died and when he was widowed.
 
It is said that he was one of her close friends when her mother died and when he was widowed.

Re: Rosebery, Toria never actually mentioned his name, only that there was "someone perfect" and "they would not allow it", so I'm not sure precisely how her listener or other people came to the conclusion she meant him. She was a bit cryptic in her outward pining, at least.

All five surviving Wales children were known not to be in the best of health. Even before Eddy succumbed to pneumonia, Queen Victoria referred to them all as "puny" and "frail little fairies" and they were all repeatedly sick with everything under the sun.

I think Maud has long been a speculation about an eating disorder but this is the first time I've heard her sister included. I'm not sure how Ridley drew the conclusion and I don't have my copy at the moment, but they were both not in shining health long before adolescent ED could have developed, and probably were not in good enough physical health to "sustain" an eating disorder on top of everything else.

As for Toria's "close friends", was anyone ever actually speculated as a lover?
 
More information about Princess Victoria’s marriage prospects, from Frances Dimond’s biography, Queen Alexandra: Loyalty and Love (2022). Dimond mined the Royal Archives at Windsor Castle with the permission of Queen Elizabeth II.

p. 324: In 1893 Lord Rosebery wrote a letter to Queen Victoria in which he stated “he had an opportunity last night of ascertaining on what he considers the very best authority (though not that of the Prince of Wales himself) that His Royal Highness was entirely opposed to the marriage in question and would never under any circumstances give his sanction to it. Nevertheless Lord Rosebery will hope to have a favourable occasion for discussing the matter with His Royal Highness, in obedience to Your Majesty’s wishes.” Dimond surmises the letter concerned either Victoria or Maud and guesses the proposed bridegroom might be Lord Rosebery himself or John Baring (later 2nd Baron Revolstoke), whom Victoria is known to have favored (Maud later told her trichologist Victoria had been in love with him).

p. 328: In 1894 the Empress Victoria championed Max of Baden for either Victoria or Maud. She also suggested a Prince of Schaumburg-Lippe (whose mother was Alix’s first cousin) or perhaps the widowed Grand Duke Paul of Russia. She also noted that Alix was not in favor of a German marriage and Bertie was “so afraid of displeasing dearest Alix…but it really is not wise to leave the fate of those dear girls ‘dans la vague’ for years longer, or marriages will be made wh will not please & wh will create difficulties.”

pp. 375-6: Max of Baden’s name comes up again in September 1899 when Bertie meets him while visiting his sister the Empress Frederick. He writes his son George: “Ah! How I wish he was yr brother in law, as to me he would be an ideal son in law.” Dimond goes on to write “perhaps it might have worked, if Alexandra could have been induced to let her marry a German prince and if Victoria had liked him enough to leave England.” She also points out that while Alix did not want her daughter to marry a German, Bertie opposed a British subject, only accepting Louise’s marriage to Duff because he was an old friend.

p. 378: On November 12, 1899, Lord Rosebery made what Dimond calls “some sort of declaration” to Victoria. She responded in a letter: “Of course I wasn’t annoyed at anything you said last night – though I own was greatly taken aback! Honestly I never for one moment dreamt of such a thing, & I simply grieve to think I should be the cause of giving you pain etc. I hope you do not regret coming here, & that did not annoy you in any way. I shall never forget anything of what you said. You must have thought me a fool but I could not answer....I am proud of the devotion & true friendship you have shown me, and I do pray that nothing may change it. You have certainly not added to my troubles & worries. On the contrary it has been a blessing & help to me, to feel that I have such a friend. ” Dimond writes: “Had Lord Rosebery been nurturing a hope that they might become more than friends and was this in his mind when he mentioned a possible marriage in 1893? If so, Albert Edward had been dead set against it; Rosebery was 21 years older than Victoria; a depressed, still-grieving widower, and above all, a party politician. Although sometimes a guest, he was not royal, which, for the Prince, would have seriously disadvantaged him as a son-in-law. This might have been overcome had Victoria been as determined to marry him as Louise had been with Macduff. She wrote friendly affectionate letters to him for some 25 years; was flattered such a great man should be interested in her and remembered some of their early meetings with sentimental pleasure; but seems to have wanted friendship, even if perhaps, at one time, romantic friendship, rather than marriage. She loved him a friend but was not in love with him as a suitor.”

Dimond also points out that Victoria disliked Denmark, where the climate disagreed with her health (pp. 357 & 368), and she preferred a private life over a high position (p. 397).
 
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I think all Alexandra’s children suffered from bad health all their lives due to being born before their due dates, with the Duke of Clarence a lot premature. Affie wrote to Bertie on the subject when Louise was born I think, and Queen Victoria was rather annoyed that because of it she was never able to sit with Alice during her childbirths.

None of them lived to the age of several of Queen Victoria’s children, the old Queen herself or their own mother. George V had several bouts of bad health
 
I think Maud has long been a speculation about an eating disorder but this is the first time I've heard her sister included. I'm not sure how Ridley drew the conclusion and I don't have my copy at the moment, but they were both not in shining health long before adolescent ED could have developed, and probably were not in good enough physical health to "sustain" an eating disorder on top of everything else.

Ridley makes a guess, based on Victoria's poor health and photographs: "Looking at photos of the two princesses with their pale, strained faces, dark-rimmed, heavy-lidded eyes and painfully thin waists - it seems likely that - even allowing for corsets - a modern diagnosis might be anorexia." (p. 130).
 
More information about Princess Victoria’s marriage prospects, from Frances Dimond’s biography, Queen Alexandra: Loyalty and Love (2022). Dimond mined the Royal Archives at Windsor Castle with the permission of Queen Elizabeth II.

So there is a brand-new biography of Alexandra? Would you be willing to discuss it in the Library, if so?
 
It is said that he was one of her close friends when her mother died and when he was widowed.

That doesnt mean that he was in love with her or vice versa. in fact he was said to be gay, by some. And I dont think the RF would have been keen on a marriage, since the marriage of Louise and Lorne had not gone that well
 
More information about Princess Victoria’s marriage prospects, from Frances Dimond’s biography, Queen Alexandra: Loyalty and Love (2022). Dimond mined the Royal Archives at Windsor Castle with the permission of Queen Elizabeth II.

[...]

p. 328: In 1894 the Empress Victoria championed Max of Baden for either Victoria or Maud. She also suggested a Prince of Schaumburg-Lippe (whose mother was Alix’s first cousin) or perhaps the widowed Grand Duke Paul of Russia. She also noted that Alix was not in favor of a German marriage and Bertie was “so afraid of displeasing dearest Alix…but it really is not wise to leave the fate of those dear girls ‘dans la vague’ for years longer, or marriages will be made wh will not please & wh will create difficulties.”

[...] Dimond goes on to write “perhaps it might have worked, if Alexandra could have been induced to let her marry a German prince and if Victoria had liked him enough to leave England.” She also points out that while Alix did not want her daughter to marry a German, Bertie opposed a British subject, only accepting Louise’s marriage to Duff because he was an old friend.
I had forgotten about Alexandra's anti-German attitude! Yeah that would have limited her daughters' choices significantly.

I was also aware of Bertie's opposition to his sister Louise marrying a British subject, so it is not surprising that his view had not changed when it came to her daughters.

This gives more insight into Queen Victoria's prediction that Toria would never marry.

So there is a brand-new biography of Alexandra? Would you be willing to discuss it in the Library, if so?
Until Gawin's post yesterday, I did not realize that Jane Ridley had written a biography of George V, then I saw where it was published in 2021, so it is recent as well. I don't want to go too far off-topic, but I have made a note to look into Frances Dimond's works.

P.S.
Regarding the health of Bertie and Alix's children. I know that they were all supposedly born premature. I have read of an alternate theory that Alix reported later due dates due to not wanting Queen Victoria present at the births. Nevertheless, her description of them as puny and frail was not off base based on the pictures I've seen. I have also read that George V and Toria (I think) were hypochondriacs as adults.
 
I think that is very mean attitude towards Alix to say that she'd lie about her due dates. her children were premature and not very strong, that does not mean that they weren't hypochondriacal as well, Victoria hadn't got much to occupy her, as she grew older, so fussing over her health would be quite understandable.
 
Ridley makes a guess, based on Victoria's poor health and photographs: "Looking at photos of the two princesses with their pale, strained faces, dark-rimmed, heavy-lidded eyes and painfully thin waists - it seems likely that - even allowing for corsets - a modern diagnosis might be anorexia." (p. 130).

I think if they were not eating much, or were bulimic there would be some evidence of it. Ridley is only guessing. I think it is true that none of the Waleses were robust.
 
I think that is very mean attitude towards Alix to say that she'd lie about her due dates. her children were premature and not very strong, that does not mean that they weren't hypochondriacal as well, Victoria hadn't got much to occupy her, as she grew older, so fussing over her health would be quite understandable.

And it's not "very mean" to call Alix "the most selfish person I ever knew"? (Which was her beloved son Georgie.) She was a frequently kind and generous person who had to put up with a lot. She was also accused of stifling her children in reaction.

Eddy, Louise, and Alexander John couldn't help being born when they did, so Alix was clearly innocent half the time. It is possible Alix was not misleading QV and simply got the dates wrong, since she was so infamously unpunctual and obstetrics wasn't exact either, back then. She was also known not to look or seem pregnant early on, perhaps leading her pregnancies to be calculated later than they would have otherwise. (For all the prematurity, I don't know that anyone's birth weight has been focused on other than Eddy.)

I'm interested to see what Dimond and Gawin's thread have to say.
 
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