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  #581  
Old 09-17-2017, 08:36 AM
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Lord Snowdon's £3.2m will leaves nothing to lovechild | Daily Mail Online

I wonder if her engagement and wedding would have happened if, Tony-Armstrong Jones had come clean about this; prior to their 1960 engagement.

He was certainly no gentleman!!
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  #582  
Old 09-17-2017, 10:55 AM
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We don't know that Tony knew for sure that he was the father at the time. In those days, before DNA tests could give a definitive answer, there were probably many of those sort of cases involving straying wives, especially within Society circles.

I think Paula Yates's father wasn't her mother's husband either, but turned out to have been TV games show host Hughie Green, so quite similar circumstances.

It's sad that Lord Snowden didn't openly acknowledge Polly years later, but as far as the money is concerned, I think she is quite comfortably off, anyway.
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  #583  
Old 09-17-2017, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
We don't know that Tony knew for sure that he was the father at the time. In those days, before DNA tests could give a definitive answer, there were probably many of those sort of cases involving straying wives, especially within Society circles.

I think Paula Yates's father wasn't her mother's husband either, but turned out to have been TV games show host Hughie Green, so quite similar circumstances.

It's sad that Lord Snowden didn't openly acknowledge Polly years later, but as far as the money is concerned, I think she is quite comfortably off, anyway.

Was Polly born yet at the time of Antony and Margaret's wedding?


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  #584  
Old 09-18-2017, 12:01 AM
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I think Margaret was very spoiled, especially by her father growing up, but everyone indulged her as the second child who would not become Queen. In addition, Margaret definitely had a very assertive and rebellious personality. However, I think the fact she became so used to having her way is what ended up making her undesirable character traits even worse when she became an adult.

Margaret got her way right up until she wanted to marry Peter Townsend with whom she had fallen in love with as an adoring adolescent. Everyone loved Townsend and he worked in close proximity to Margaret and Elizabeth in the royal household. Margaret set her eye on him at 15 (similar to how Elizabeth had set her eye on Philip at 13). The difference is that Margaret was the second child with a different temperament than Elizabeth who was more patient and dutiful to a point (Elizabeth was also very strong-minded and determined -- she wanted Philip and she was willing to wait for him without settling for anyone else presented to her).

Also of course, Townsend was married and later divorced, which made his love affair with Margaret impossible coming so soon after Edward VIII abdicated the throne for the divorced Wallis Simpson. Elizabeth and Philip were fortunate in having Lord Louis Mountbatten working extremely hard behind-the-scenes to secure royal and government acceptance of their betrothal. Plus, Philip was not married or divorced, which was the biggest difference.

Margaret being unlucky in love (with being forced to give up Townsend) is I believe what drastically contributed to her personality becoming more difficult as she grew older. She and Tony Armstrong-Jones had a volatile love affair even before they decided to marry. Their temperaments were equally stubborn and highly unsuited (despite being drawn to each other at first by their similarities). Ultimately, they made each other very unhappy. The only good that came from their marriage is their two children.

Margaret was very conscious of her royal status and very prickly about it (possibly because she had been put in a position of either giving up everything she had ever known or giving up the man she loved). Being royal was the only identity she knew from birth. She could not give it up. Most likely she was deeply resentful of being forced to make such a choice, although she may not have realized later how much she had been affected psychologically and emotionally. It's a shame that Margaret was in essence trapped in a royal cage, but would peck anyone's eyes out who dared to breach those royal bars to truly get to know the person she was locked inside herself.
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  #585  
Old 09-18-2017, 12:04 AM
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Margaret didn't have to give up Townsend, she could of married him ..she decided to not give up her title/lifestyle.

I'm not sure she came out ahead on that one.


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  #586  
Old 09-18-2017, 12:45 AM
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^^ Yes she was given that choice. But it was an impossible choice for a 25-year-old to have to make. Margaret had only known a royal existence and identity. Why do you think that's easy to simply give up because you're in love with someone? It's not that simple.

I realize that there has been a lot of rewriting of history since both Townsend and Margaret are no longer alive to set the record straight, unfortunately.

Those with a vested interest in tweaking what really happened can come up with all the lost letters they want with Margaret saying whatever about not being sure she was in love with Townsend. The fact is that the screws were put to her in a way that those responsible for the machinations figured would keep Margaret in line. If it was up to Elizabeth, she would have granted Margaret her wish (just as Elizabeth herself ended up with the man she truly desired). It was not up to Elizabeth, a young Queen, who felt she had to follow the advice of her mother and government officials. Her husband Philip, is also said to have been against Margaret marrying Townsend.

You state that as if it was such an easy decision for Margaret to make, and 'shame on her for not making the choice to be with her lover.' Like I said, as a person still in their twenties, how are you expected to give up everything you've ever known, including your identity, in order to be with the person you truly love? The people making the ultimatum knew Margaret could not give up her royal lifestyle and her status (which again was her identity since birth). That's not a small thing, no matter how much the status quo today is to portray it as such: "Oh, it's her fault. If she really loved him, she could have given everything up to marry him." Not true. Even Townsend knew she wouldn't be able to give up all she'd known for him, no matter how much they loved each other. And they did love each other, no doubt. As a fifteen-year-old, Margaret flirted with Townsend, but they were both responsible for falling in love, unlike how The Crown apparently portrays what happened. First of all, Townsend was a very tall and a very handsome war hero, and he looked younger than his years. The actor who played him in The Crown is miscast.

Margaret was a mischievous, high-spirited child who was royally spoiled and indulged (partly to make up for her being the second child who would not inherit the throne). That was of course a big mistake. Margaret was known to be an expert mimic who entertained everyone and made them laugh. I've heard it said that she could have been a very good actress, had she not been trapped in a royal life. Again, how do you expect a royally-sheltered and spoiled 25-year-old to understand anything about life and its twists and turns in order to be able to judiciously make such a momentous decision? As I said, the goal for those giving Margaret the ultimatum in the first place was for her not to choose Townsend.

Initially, Margaret and Townsend (when their affair became public) had been kept apart and dissuaded for five years. Both Margaret's parents had tried to discourage her and to interest her in other endeavors, and in other young men closer to her age who were considered more suitable. However, I believe had King George VI not died, the ultimate outcome may have been different, since Margaret was the apple of his eye (and he found it hard to say no to her).

The whole tragic affair is part of a catastrophic British royal history regarding love and marriage that did not start with Princess Margaret. And it certainly did not end with Princess Margaret. The little known, but glamorous and heroically tragic Prince William of Gloucester who died in the 1972, was yet another in a long line of 'denied true love' casualties. Fortunately, post-Diana things have changed. These days, royals are not forced to adhere to government machinations, and antiquated royal traditions, contradictions and demands, when it comes to deciding who they wish to marry.
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  #587  
Old 09-18-2017, 12:52 AM
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First off I've read a couple of bios on Margaret so I'm not going by what some tv show portrays.

Secondly never did I say or even insinuate 'shame on her' for her choice.

She was 25. It doesn't matter why she decided as she did..the point is that she made the decision. There was no forcing her to give him up.

Townsend, be of the age and experience he was, should of never encouraged her if he knew she'd never be able to give it up.

You really don't need to post mini-bios on the royals ...most of us have read them, or several of them.


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  #588  
Old 09-18-2017, 01:06 AM
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I do tend to write a lot, and apparently some find that annoying. I don't think I wrote a mini-bio of Margaret though. I just explained what I'm basing my perceptions and opinions on, having read widely about the royals (and in this case about Margaret's childhood, and specifically about the events surrounding her relationship with Townsend). There's been a lot written. And recently, a lot of revisionist history has been surfacing (since Margaret's death and Townsend's death).

Unsurprisingly, on emotional topics regarding love and royal relationships, everyone does not agree. In this case, I am not disagreeing that Margaret's personality got her into most of the trouble she experienced in life. However, I do disagree with the assumption (and the revision) that Margaret was completely free to marry Peter Townsend and that she's the one who decided to give up Townsend all by herself. Nope, she was coerced with an impossible ultimatum, after persuasion and separating them for a long period of time did not work.

I'm not sure how old you are. But to suggest that Townsend is somehow at fault for falling in love, seems as if you are not aware of the many complications and vicissitudes that star-crossed love can bring. After they fell in love, they both remained hopeful that things could work out. Townsend many years later wrote that once the ultimatum was given to Margaret, he understood how difficult a decision it would be for her.

Once again, the people who gave Margaret the ultimatum also knew this. It's not a mystery why she was given such a harsh ultimatum.
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  #589  
Old 09-18-2017, 05:37 AM
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It wasn't a "terrible ultimatum". She would not have had to give up her title and she would not hav been poor.. but yes at the time, so soon after the Abidication, it wasn't going to be possible for her to continue as a working Princess, if she choose to marry a divorced man. But she could have chosen it. She wasn't ever very keen on royal work.. but she could have lived abroad for a few years, and then probably in later years, she would be able to come back to Britain and lead a normal upper class life. Her family would have ensured that she was not "poor" and she presumably had upper class friends and a circle.. the only difference would be that she wasn't doing royal duties any more. She may have had some guilty feeligns that if she left the RF's work roster and married a divorced man, she was letting her sister down.. but ultimately, it was up to her to choose what she wanted to do.. and she was 25, not 18. and if she did make what she felt was the wrong choice later, that she was not happy when she had given up Townsend, well lots of people have problems and make bad romantic choices.. and end up marrying someone they don't really love because for some reason their first choice wasn't avaialbe. She could have made her marriage to Tony work, better or she could have waited for longer to marry, and picked someone less volatile than him. it seems as if their Marriage was largely based on sexual attraction, a bit of "rebelling" on Marg's part and that neither of them worked very hard at it...
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  #590  
Old 09-18-2017, 07:31 AM
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What an honor for Princess Margaret to still be talked about, especially concerning her behavior and relationship with Peter Townsend. I wonder if she would nod satisfied about this?

In some ways I feel for her, she was caught between a rock and a hard place and time was against her. I think her spoiled character made her a sad woman later on.

Then again... how emotionally mature is someone of 25 to be able to make such a decision? Whether she was 'unsure' or not, I think there are only two men who had such an impact in her life: her father and Peter Townsend.
I don't think that Lord Snowdon is among those ranks.
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  #591  
Old 09-18-2017, 07:39 AM
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How old did she have to be? I think that 25 is young but it is old enough to marry and in her case she knew that she could not just marry anyone or get a divorce easily. So she had to make a "good choice". I think in retrospect she was never going to pick Townsend. She didn't know any other life than being royal, and I think she would only have married him if he was rich in his own right and if she could have remained in the UK and still done some royal duties. Not because she enjoyed them as such but because they were part of her royal life.
I don't know how much she was really in love with Townsend. I think that like with Tony Snowdon there was the element of rebellion or playing at rebellion, in falling for him. and then when she lost him, she apparentlty rushed into marriage with Tony because Townsend had married again, and she wanted to find a husband..
their marriage was never very good, I think neither of them was prepared to work at it.. I don't blame Margaret alone.. but she certainly didn't learn from her earlier life.
I think that as she grew older she got bitter about the fact that she hadn't been able to marry her first love, as she saw changes in the RF which allowed her sisters' children to have divorces or marry divorcees..
Her marriage ended, and while she had other relationships I dont think any of htem worked out, and she became more unpopular with the public.
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  #592  
Old 09-18-2017, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
We don't know that Tony knew for sure that he was the father at the time. In those days, before DNA tests could give a definitive answer, there were probably many of those sort of cases involving straying wives, especially within Society circles.

I think Paula Yates's father wasn't her mother's husband either, but turned out to have been TV games show host Hughie Green, so quite similar circumstances.

It's sad that Lord Snowden didn't openly acknowledge Polly years later, but as far as the money is concerned, I think she is quite comfortably off, anyway.
Perhaps he did not want to embarrass the RF by admitting that he had a love child, and felt i was better to keep their relationship private. then again he ended up breaking up his second marriage by having an affair which resulted in a child.
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  #593  
Old 09-18-2017, 07:46 AM
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I don't know how old she had to be. Some people are very mature at age 25 where others are only barely 18 years old.
Of course it's all easy talk in hindsight.

I think she grew resentful and bitter over the years, indeed as you said before left behind by history, and perhaps even that she was not given as much respect from the public as she felt entitled to because of her position. But that position requires work and she was more at ease in the high society (perhaps also to make up for things).

Perhaps a better core question could be how happy her rebellion made her? Or perhaps she felt that she had the right to rebel and if others also did that she became haughty. As if she had sole rights to rebel.
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Old 09-18-2017, 08:13 AM
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Yes I think she felt she had the right to rebel, or to act "high and mighty" because of her position. But she didn't quite have the nerve to really flat out rebel. She played at it..
and she did alos have respect for the position of the monarch so I think that as time went on, she got antsy with the younger generation who seemed to her to be "doing what they liked" and NOT being so restricted as she had been in the 50s. But well that's the march of history. Things change and she was unlucky, that when she was in love with Townsend, it just wasn't on to marry a divorced man.. but Anne in the 80s or 90s problaby would have ben allowed to do so.
I think she felt that the younger people, and in particular the ones who had married into the family, were lacking in respect for the royal positon/ the queen. and so she fell out very badly with Diana.. I think she felt that if SHE had to had to toe the line, and she was a Princess, Diana as "not royal" should certainly have behaved herself.
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Old 09-18-2017, 08:41 AM
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The paradox was Margaret lived a very priviliged and yet very restricted, at that time, life. Now a days the next King can and did get divorced and marry a divorced woman.

In the public eye but with no real royal focus or function, had she absolutely loved and been loved by Peter Townsand how much better off she would have been to go that route. She was always going to be the Queen's sister, regardless of rank, and probably much happier had she just let it happen. When Peter proposed he had to know what he was asking of her. Had she trusted him and indeed herself, who knows?
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  #596  
Old 09-18-2017, 08:55 AM
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I don't think she would have been any happier. I think she would have regretted losing her positon. She would still have been a PRincess, but not a princess who did royal duties, who was surrounded by other royals, who lived in a palace and had the respect of the country. She would have problaby been living abroad for a few years for the upset to die down. Peter would have had some kind of job, and I'll bet she would soon have been bored and miserable and missing her family and her usual life. Look what a miserable life the Duke and Duchess of Windsor had, surrounded by café society, living permanently abroad, with him having nothing to do...
I think Margaret would have been the same...
Peter T loved her but he soudl have left her alone.. He was a good deal older than her. One of the Kings staff said ot him "You must be either mad or bad" when he heard that Peter was involved iwht Margaret
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Old 09-18-2017, 10:28 AM
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Some folks aren't happy and won't be even if they have the world with a fence around it. Sometimes you have to choose to be happy.

A lot more than love is needed to make a go of things. Emotions are not generally a good measure against which to make decisions.

Margaret made the decision to not marry Townsend. She was not forced to give him up or given an impossible choice.

Townsend had to know how the relationship was likely to end. If he'd of been some young boy I would have a different view...but for someone with his life experience to do that, I just think he was wrong to have gotten involved with her.

I agree with Denville, I don't think it likely she would of lived happily ever after with Townsend either.

That initial 'love' emotion is not enough to carry a couple thru all the adversity they will face (especially in a situation like that) there has to be more there beneath it.


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Old 09-18-2017, 11:17 AM
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I agree with Denville, I don't think it likely she would of lived happily ever after with Townsend either.

LaRae
I'm not so sure.
There was considerable pressure at the time to separate them, but their feelings for one another remained.

And I remember reading that her friends said she always regretted the decision she'd made.

We'll never know for sure, but I believe Margaret resented the freedom the younger generation had in regard to marriage and divorce, and that is why she went off the rails a bit with her toyboys and celebrity lovers.
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Old 09-18-2017, 01:37 PM
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I'm not so sure.
There was considerable pressure at the time to separate them, but their feelings for one another remained.

And I remember reading that her friends said she always regretted the decision she'd made.

We'll never know for sure, but I believe Margaret resented the freedom the younger generation had in regard to marriage and divorce, and that is why she went off the rails a bit with her toyboys and celebrity lovers.

I think there was regret on Margaret's part...after all the money and position rarely makes one happy.

I do agree she resented the freedom the younger royals had. Different era.


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Old 09-18-2017, 03:37 PM
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Peter Townsend was a war hero, but he didn't behave in a very heroic way. He seduced- or allowed himself to be seduced by-the much younger daughter of his boss, the King. And he later, at the age of 45, married a 20-year-old girl, who looked remarkably like Princess Margaret.

Interestingly, their daughter Isabelle became a Ralph Lauren model; she currently lives with her family in "The Mill", previously the French country residence of the Duke and Duchess of Windsor.
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