Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon (1930-2002)

[Denville]

Yes, things do build over time, if you let them. I well understand falling head over heels in love, and getting carried away. But she was only 14 when they met. Sometimes you have to distance yourself from potential trouble.

And.

Its not so much that she was young but she was a Princess, and he was married, At the time, no matter if he fell in love with her, he must have known that the king would never allow such a marriage and that the public wouldn't be keen on it.. So while I dont like Margaret or excuse her, I think he should have applied for a transfer when he realised that he was getting involved with her...

 

[Curryong]

As far as I can recollect, all through the 70s Margaret was seen as idle and not very active.. and more fond of spending money, having affairs, and ilding in Mustique than doing any royal work. And gradauly she did less and less..

I think memories fade and become warped with time. I can remember being surprised when I later read of the small number of engagement Diana did each year when her children were small. Margaret did gradually get pushed into the background when her niece, nephew Charles grew up but she still kept the interest in her charities.

 

[Tsaritsa]

It wasn't a "terrible ultimatum". She would not have had to give up her title and she would not hav been poor.. but yes at the time, so soon after the Abidication, it wasn't going to be possible for her to continue as a working Princess, if she choose to marry a divorced man. But she could have chosen it. She wasn't ever very keen on royal work.. but she could have lived abroad for a few years, and then probably in later years, she would be able to come back to Britain and lead a normal upper class life. Her family would have ensured that she was not "poor" and she presumably had upper class friends and a circle.. the only difference would be that she wasn't doing royal duties any more. She may have had some guilty feeligns that if she left the RF's work roster and married a divorced man, she was letting her sister down.. but ultimately, it was up to her to choose what she wanted to do.. and she was 25, not 18. and if she did make what she felt was the wrong choice later, that she was not happy when she had given up Townsend, well lots of people have problems and make bad romantic choices.. and end up marrying someone they don't really love because for some reason their first choice wasn't avaialbe. She could have made her marriage to Tony work, better or she could have waited for longer to marry, and picked someone less volatile than him. it seems as if their Marriage was largely based on sexual attraction, a bit of "rebelling" on Marg's part and that neither of them worked very hard at it...

I simply couldn't resist responding to this, Denville. I agree with everything you've said. I think Margaret had been allowed to believe she could have whatever she wanted without consequences. I believe she loved Townsend -well, certainly I believe she thought she did- and it's interesting that she only, allegedly, agreed to marry AAJ having received a letter from Townsend, that day, informing her of his plan to marry a young French woman. I feel certain that she continued to use it -the alleged refusal of permission to marry him- as the cause for all the 'misery' in her life, until the day she died. I think she was a woman who refused to take responsibility for herself and made others the cause of the person she became.

 

[Dman]

I happen to think Princess Margaret used her royal snobby and snotty attitude to push herself around in a world that pretty much told her she wasn't needed nor important.

I think if she was happy and content in her personal and royal life, things would've turned out better for her.

Margaret had the world at her feet in her younger royal life. She was the King's daughter and Queen's sister; opening parliaments, touring the Commonwealth and enjoying the privileges of being glamorous and royal seniority.

It all changed once The Queen's children grew old enough to carry out royal duties in their teenage years. With an unhappy- life for Margaret wasn't the same.

She created her own fantasy royal life and it turned a lot of people off.

 

[Denville]

I simply couldn't resist responding to this, Denville. I agree with everything you've said. I think Margaret had been allowed to believe she could have whatever she wanted without consequences. I believe she loved Townsend -well, certainly I believe she thought she did- and it's interesting that she only, allegedly, agreed to marry AAJ having received a letter from she was a woman who refused to take responsibility for herself and made others the cause of the person she became.

Thank you. I don't know how much she wanted Townsend. but I think she DID love him..but if she had married him would it have worked out? It IS sad that she couldn't marry him and continue as Princess Marg, Mrs P Townsend.. BUT we can't say for sure how THAT marriage, had she been able to retain her royal status as a "full Princess" would have worked out.

and to be fair to Marg, she didn't make her marriage fail all by herself. TOny was also a selfish person and they neither of thtem IMO worked hard on the marriage...

 

[Denville]

I think memories fade and become warped with time. I can remember being surprised when I later read of the small number of engagement Diana did each year when her children were small. Margaret did gradually get pushed into the background when her niece, nephew Charles grew up but she still kept the interest in her charities.

Of course she DID SOMe charity and representational work, but I DO remember that in the 70s she got a lot of criticism because she was seen as idle, spoiled, fooling around with a much younger man..
I think she never recovered from all that bad press, because by the 80s Diana had come along and Charles and Di were the stars. Margaret was unpopular and not really wanted so much as a working Royal. Then she had health problems and I presume was doing very little work. But her haughtiness, her pleasure seeking lifestyle, were all around for a long time. The public weren't aware of her earlier affairs, probably.. but as far as I can see, her marriage was never really successful, she and Tony were both having affairs, and she certainly was more into having fun than doing work...

 

[Denville]

The worst about Margaret was that she was so lazy. She did few and quite menial royal duties. She never dedicated herself to any causes to make her perks worth it. I understand that spending January and February strolling on the beach in Mustique was much more appealing.
.

What on earth are "menial" royal duties??

 

[Queen Claude]

Random Thoughts:
I think that Margaret carried her weight as a royal. The royals, including the Queen, have oodles of leisure time, but I guess the optics of cavorting in Mustique with a man decades younger than you looks worse than stay-cationing at Balmoral or Sandringham.

To be sure, I think that Margaret faced a difficult decision when it came to marrying Peter Townsend, but I don't think that it is unduly harsh to say that she chose the trappings of royalty over love, or alternatively the relationship with Peter Townsend had run its course and she chose not to marry him for that reason.

Appropos of nothing, but after seeing Peter Townsend as a commentator in documentaries, that guy rubs me the wrong way. And yeah I think there is something off-putting about how young Margaret and his second wife were when their romances started, although I should note that it is unclear/disputed when the romance with Margaret actually started.

There is no disputing that Margaret could be rude and imperious, but I cringe at some of the things Lord Snowden are reported to have said to her and his behavior towards her.

 

[Denville]

I would not say that the relationship with Townsend had run its course. I think she was still in love with him, but she had many reasons why she did choose to not marry him. I think she had genuine scruples about what leaving the RF might do, to the queen, who was new in her job.. that it would look bad for her to desert her sister, and to give her sister the embarrassment of having her closest relative marrying a divorced man.
and I think that also, Margo really could not give up her role as Princess. She had never known anyhting else but being royal, she may have enjoyed playing with rebellion, but when push came to shove she probably took fright at the idea of being stuck somewhere abroad, with a husband who was of lower status.. losing her position, even if she kept the title of Princess. Look how miserable in many ways Edw VIII was when he ended up lving abroad, no longer a king.. trying to find a role and realising that now that he'd gone, the British people were quite content to let him go and to turn to George VI as their monarch.
As for Townsend he was indeed a war hero and a decent man, but I think he was very foolish to let himself get involved with Marg. He could not help falling in love.. but he msut have known that he would not be allowed to marry her unless she gave up her positon. I think he was wrong not to foresee that and he should have broken off the relationship before it got too deep.
I don't know how old his second wife was, but I don't realy think that it matters unless she was only 15 or something. And the marriage lasted the rest of his life and seems to have been very happy so IMO that speaks for itself.

 

[Queen Claude]

For the deal that had been worked out, the only thing that Margaret would have to give up was her place n the line of succession.She would not lose her HRH, she could still be a working royal and remain on the civil list. I think that Margaret's situation was different than her uncle's because sensibilities had changed, among other things Britain's PM was was divorced plus she was neither monarch nor heir, and her sister had produced an heir and spare.

 

[MaiaMia_53]

Ah, so many people here speak as if they were flies on the wall in royal palaces (not to mention knowledgeable mind readers of people long dead). I would only base my comments and observations upon what is known from reliable first-hand sources, well-researched biographies by reputable biographers, historical documentation, photographs, witnessed events, and actual eyewitness accounts and quotes by the parties in question.

I definitely would shy away from believing biopic portrayals, rumor and gossip.

 

[Denville]

For the deal that had been worked out, the only thing that Margaret would have to give up was her place n the line of succession.She would not lose her HRH, she could still be a working royal and remain on the civil list. I think that Margaret's situation was different than her uncle's because sensibilities had changed, among other things Britain's PM was was divorced plus she was neither monarch nor heir, and her sister had produced an heir and spare.

What deal do you mean? I don't believe the RF would allow her to reamin on the Civil List or do royal duties when many of the public would not approve of her marrying a divrorced man.
things hadn't changed all that much, by the 50s. It was still felt that royals were obliged to stick by the stricter rules of the C of E, which did not as a general rule permit remarriage to divorced people. It didn't matter that the PM was divorced,

 

[Queen Claude]

The deal was crafted by Prime Minister Anthony Eden and the Queen agreed to it. Margaret even references it in her statement announcing that she decided not to marry Townsend.

From The Times, November 1, 1955
STATEMENT BY PRINCESS

The following personal message was issued by Princess Margaret from Clarence House last night: —
“I would like it to be known that I have decided not to marry Group Captain Peter Townsend. I have been aware that, subject to renouncing my rights of succession, it might have been possible for me to contract a civil marriage.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...rying-the-divorcee-peter-townsend-khnt2mmhzqz

Excerpts from another article:

But in fact, papers available in the National Archives since 2004 show that the Queen and Eden drew up a plan in 1955 under which Princess Margaret could marry Townsend while keeping her royal title and her civil list allowance of £6,000 a year plus another £9,000 on marriage. She could live in this country and even continue with public duties if the public approved, as was highly likely.

However, she would have to renounce her rights of succession and those of her children.


[snip]


Eden himself, in his letter to Commonwealth prime ministers was very sympathetic to Princess Margaret. "Exclusion from the Succession would not entail any other change in Princess Margaret's position as a member of the Royal Family," he wrote.

Did the Queen stop Princess Margaret marrying Peter Townsend? - BBC News

 

[ladongas]

Ah, so many people here speak as if they were flies on the wall in royal palaces (not to mention knowledgeable mind readers of people long dead). I would only base my comments and observations upon what is known from reliable first-hand sources, well-researched biographies by reputable biographers, historical documentation, photographs, witnessed events, and actual eyewitness accounts and quotes by the parties in question.

I definitely would shy away from believing biopic portrayals, rumor and gossip.

As would I.

As do I.

And Townsend did have a type: beautiful women who were much or very much younger.

 

[Kronprinz]

As far as I can recollect, all through the 70s Margaret was seen as idle and not very active.. and more fond of spending money, having affairs, and ilding in Mustique than doing any royal work. And gradauly she did less and less..

Yes, as early as the 1970s she was doing so little work that Parliament started to question if she was worthy of her very nice income.

I understand that as Prince Charles and Princess Anne turned into full working royals in the 70s, her share of engagements would have been reduced. Still she was more than happy to take the back seat and spend weeks without end sunbathing in the Caribbean.

The funny thing is that by the mid/late 90s she was expected to take on more duties due to the departure of Princess Diana and the Duchess of York from the family. She was the one who welcomed the French president in 1996 and she made a surprise appearance at the 1997 State Opening of Parliament.

But it was then that her health started to fail.

 

[Curryong]

Well, as I posted in #612 in this thread all the tours, causes and charities Margaret was involved with during the 1970s (and 1950s, 60s, and 80s) then all I can say is that sometimes people's memories on looking back forty years (if they can remember back that long) are faulty to say the least.

Of course when Charles and Anne grew up and then Diana and Sarah married in Margaret retreated into the background. That was natural. However, to call her an 'idle' and 'disgraceful Royal 'who only performed 'menial duties' (whatever they may be) is completely untrue, as far as I can see.

Andrew for example (probably my least favourite British Royal) has, if you believe the tabloids and rely on memory, done nothing since he left the RN except conduct trade deals in an unbecoming manner, have friendships with some very shady people and enable his ex wife's lifestyle.

Yet in his public life Andrew's figures for annual engagements aren't much lower than Charles and Anne's and he keeps plugging on with his particular spheres of interest, technology, entrepreneurship etc with very little publicity.

After his death the same things might well be said of him as they have been of Margaret. An emphasis on the scandals and very little on any good done.

 

[irish_royalist]

I googled some pictures of Princess Margaret at the State Opening of Parliament in 1997 and I think she looks incredibly well - very Princess-like, and still retaining her haughty air!

 

[Kronprinz]

I googled some pictures of Princess Margaret at the State Opening of Parliament in 1997 and I think she looks incredibly well - very Princess-like, and still retaining her haughty air!

That was probably one of her last good moments. She had a stroke a few months later and it was all downhill from there.

 

[Tsaritsa]

I googled some pictures of Princess Margaret at the State Opening of Parliament in 1997 and I think she looks incredibly well - very Princess-like, and still retaining her haughty air!

There are numerous pictures of Margaret showing off her hauteur to full advantage, but to my mind the one which shows her as being most real -and incidentally, at her most beautiful- was the first one taken of her after her decision not to marry Townsend. She's sitting in the back of a car, wearing a fur coat, stripped of the Royal mask. Her eyes appear huge and wet with unshed tears. She looks like a woman who is hurting and imagines her world may have ended. I was very young when that picture was released. It still has the power to move me, as much now, as it did, then.

 

[Osipi]

It doesn't get any better showing off Margaret's personality than a picture of her in the bathtub wearing a grand tiara. I love this picture of Margaret but could do without seeing the one of her and Mick Jagger in the tub.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Pri...i=3W_KWZLWDobqmAH6maSYDQ#imgrc=FWfSE9pQxLLYlM:

 

[Kronprinz]

It doesn't get any better showing off Margaret's personality than a picture of her in the bathtub wearing a grand tiara. I love this picture of Margaret but could do without seeing the one of her and Mick Jagger in the tub.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Pri...i=3W_KWZLWDobqmAH6maSYDQ#imgrc=FWfSE9pQxLLYlM:

This picture defines Princess Margaret: one foot inside the royal bubble, another in the celebrity world.

She really wanted to have her cake and eat it.

 

[EllieCat]

I love this picture of Margaret but could do without seeing the one of her and Mick Jagger in the tub.

That's a fake photo.

 

[Osipi]

You're absolutely right that its a fake and photoshopped. Still, that's the kind of an image that gives me the heebeejeebees as Mick Jagger isn't anywhere near my people to admire list. From what I've read, I've got good company with the Queen on this issue.

 

[Denville]

well Marg liked showbiz people, problaby because she could show off and play her little game of wanting to be ordinary and then reverting to haughty when it suited her.
She was not an asset...

 

[Tsaritsa]

well Marg liked showbiz people, problaby because she could show off and play her little game of wanting to be ordinary and then reverting to haughty when it suited her.
She was not an asset...

Someone? wrote a book entitled "The Last Real Princess" which describes her position well. She was bought up like 'eristocretic gels" in the Edwardian era -a cocoon remote from the 20th century- whose main function was to be decorative. I think she probably was talented -although perhaps not QUITE as much as we're encouraged to believe. One wonders if she never tried to expand on these from fear of failure? I always feel there's something rather sad about aged Princesses. I feel the very name -which conjures up visions of young girls- is an insult to mature womanhood. There seems to be a suggestion that they've never made it any further.

 

[Denville]

really? PRincess Alexandra's not a mature and useful woman?
Margo was Margo. She was lazy, selfish and spoiled. She did the minimum of royal duties and was noted fro doing them with frequent breaks in Mustique and a sour arrogant demeanour.
I've never heard of her having any particular talents, if you mean artistic ones. if she had, she could have used them either in private or public for her own and other's good.
Many royal women have been able to find jobs in the arts field, as it is "non controversial" and not commercial. Even if she couldnt' have actually worked in that filed, she could have devoted herself to something, and painted, or studied piano or some instrument to a high standard... or used her knowledge of in some way.
Margo probably moaned all her life that "oh dear she hadn't been let marry Peter T, and that had ruined her life." but odds are if she had, it would have broken up as he would have been older than her, and more serious and they would have become bored with each other.

 

[Queen Claude]

Can those labeling Margaret lazy elaborate on that claim? Did she do significantly fewer engagements than the other royals who supported the monarch? I kinda recall her being called out for laziness but that seemed to be tied to her lifestyle where she does not work as much as the average bloke and on top of that gets to jet off to the Caribbean but that can be said about all royals but it seemed like Margaret was an easier target because her vacation habits were perceived to be more luxe and hedonistic vis a vis other royals.

 

[Tsaritsa]

really? PRincess Alexandra's not a mature and useful woman?
Margo was Margo. She was lazy, selfish and spoiled. She did the minimum of royal duties and was noted fro doing them with frequent breaks in Mustique and a sour arrogant demeanour.
I've never heard of her having any particular talents, if you mean artistic ones. if she had, she could have used them either in private or public for her own and other's good.
Many royal women have been able to find jobs in the arts field, as it is "non controversial" and not commercial. Even if she couldnt' have actually worked in that filed, she could have devoted herself to something, and painted, or studied piano or some instrument to a high standard... or used her knowledge of in some way.
Margo probably moaned all her life that "oh dear she hadn't been let marry Peter T, and that had ruined her life." but odds are if she had, it would have broken up as he would have been older than her, and more serious and they would have become bored with each other.

Other than her artistic talents, she was reputed to have a quick mind. It's said she could have done well if she'd gone to university. I fully concur that she probably dined out on -for the rest of her life- that had she married Peter as she'd want to but was prevented from doing......................
My abject apologies to HRH Princess Alexandra.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

I do think Margaret's choice of vacation location played into the stories. It is easier to criticize someone vacationing in the Caribbean where it is warm and sunny with beaches than vacationing in the wilds of northern Scotland.

 

[Denville]

What artisitic talents? Playing show tunes on the piano. My remembrance is that she did get a lot of criticism for not doing a large number of engagements. Its possible that she did a reasonable amount but that yes, her expenisve holidays didn't endear her to the less well off English who at that time didn't get foreign holidays very much. The queen was shrewd in spending much of her leisure time in Scotland.