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  #101  
Old 06-12-2014, 08:11 PM
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There also would have been no Princess Patricia and in turn, no Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry. Also the Province of Alberta and Lake Louise would have different names today.

Amazing all the "What if...!?!" That come up, huh?
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  #102  
Old 06-13-2014, 12:13 AM
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You know what I think, from previous posts. Many on this royal line had porphyria. Charlotte's death may have been brought about by the doctor treating her wrong for a porphyria patient. The strict diet contributed. Then the alcohol during her long delivery. I forget what drugs she had during delivery, if any, which were very likely to have triggered porphyria too. But the doctor's ignorance on this subject really was not his sole fault. The whole medical profession was grossly ignorant of what triggers porphyria attacks, what makes a porphyria patient sicker in a situation like pregnancy and delivery. With proper modern knowledge (which admittedly is hard to find, but perhaps not hard for the royals to find it they need it) Charlotte almost certainly could have had a successful pregnancy and delivery. It was possibly ignorance that killed her, but the ignorance was not unique to her physician.
50% of children of porphyria patients have porphyria. 75% of children whose parents BOTH have porphyria have the tendency. It sometimes does not show itself if it is not triggered. Diet, drugs, and alcohol are all important triggers.
Charlotte's apparent good health before pregnancy is quite common among people who have porphyria, if they have not been triggered into active illness. Charlotte's austere diet was probably the first big trigger.
That's what I think and I know not everyone will agree.
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  #103  
Old 06-13-2014, 12:54 AM
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I thought that the labor was to blame, which was allowed to go on for a shockingly long time without intervention, which could have brought about septicemia?
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  #104  
Old 06-13-2014, 01:57 AM
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Yes, Casualfan, the reported too long delivery could have contributed to her demise. All factors contributed. As an example of co-morbidity, bad infections also trigger porphyria attacks.
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  #105  
Old 06-13-2014, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Mariel View Post
You know what I think, from previous posts. Many on this royal line had porphyria. Charlotte's death may have been brought about by the doctor treating her wrong for a porphyria patient. The strict diet contributed. Then the alcohol during her long delivery. I forget what drugs she had during delivery, if any, which were very likely to have triggered porphyria too. But the doctor's ignorance on this subject really was not his sole fault. The whole medical profession was grossly ignorant of what triggers porphyria attacks, what makes a porphyria patient sicker in a situation like pregnancy and delivery. With proper modern knowledge (which admittedly is hard to find, but perhaps not hard for the royals to find it they need it) Charlotte almost certainly could have had a successful pregnancy and delivery. It was possibly ignorance that killed her, but the ignorance was not unique to her physician.
50% of children of porphyria patients have porphyria. 75% of children whose parents BOTH have porphyria have the tendency. It sometimes does not show itself if it is not triggered. Diet, drugs, and alcohol are all important triggers.
Charlotte's apparent good health before pregnancy is quite common among people who have porphyria, if they have not been triggered into active illness. Charlotte's austere diet was probably the first big trigger.
That's what I think and I know not everyone will agree.
You're making a few huge errors here.

First of all, your statistics are being misrepresented. If a trait is determined by one gene (G being the dominant and g being the recessive) and a person has parents who are Gg (having it) and gg (not having it) then they have a 50% change of displaying the trait; however if the parents are GG and gg then there is a 100% chance of the child having the trait. Similarly, if both parents are Gg then there is a 75% chance of a child having it, but if one is GG and the other Gg (or both are GG) there is a 100% chance of the child displaying it. However, these statistics are for each individual child; if a Gg and gg couple have 4 children, probability says that 2 of their children will be Gg and 2 will be gg, (if the couple is Gg and Gg then 1 child will be GG, 2 Gg, and 1 gg), but it is entirely possible for other outcomes to happen. While the probability may say one thing, the actual outcome may be entirely different. The genes aren't going "oh, well, the last 2 kids didn't display the trait, so this one needs to." The slate is wiped clean each time.

Therefore, assuming that George III had porphyria and was Gg for it, then each of his children had a 50% chance of getting it. That does not mean that 50% of his children had it, just that they had the chance of having it. Hemophilia is similar, and we can see how that works in Queen Victoria's sons - as Victoria was a carrier and the trait is passed on using the X chromosome it means that each of her sons had a 50% chance of getting the disease - so, according to probability, of her 4 sons, 2 of them should have had hemophilia. Except, only one of her sons had it. Probability isn't always what happens.

Secondly, and this is the biggie to me, it's not actually 100% that George III himself had porphyria, let alone any of his children or grandchildren. There was a hypothesis postulated in 1966 that George III's madness was caused by porphyria. The idea has gained a lot of popularity causing people to beleive that he did in fact have porphyria, but it's still just one theory about the cause of his madness, and not one that's always accepted as valid by historians and psychiatrists. Recently it's been argued that the claim is based on a very selective reading of the sources - as if the people who put the claim forward only looked at evidence that would support their claim.

Now, regardless of whether or not her grandfather did in fact have porphyria it's entirely possible that Charlotte had it... although there doesn't seem to be much evidence of it. Further, the account of her labour is enough to suggest that it really was just the labour that killed her - she went into labour on the 3rd, and didn't deliver until the 5th. Even a less problematic labour would have had a chance of killing her in those days. If memory serves, she hemorrhaged after the birth and they couldn't get the bleeding to stop - which is to this day still a serious threat to women when they give birth and can often require blood transfusions (which they wouldn't have had at the time). Saying that Charlotte died of anything other than complications due to labour is a stretch.
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  #106  
Old 06-13-2014, 07:32 PM
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Back in 1817 women died in childbirth - strong, healthy women.

I agree that Charlotte suffered a post-partum hemorrhage, something which is treated very easily today. The baby was too large for her, and the poor thing bled out. Not a pleasant end.
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  #107  
Old 06-13-2014, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Mariel View Post
Yes, Casualfan, the reported too long delivery could have contributed to her demise. All factors contributed. As an example of co-morbidity, bad infections also trigger porphyria attacks.

Very interesting! Thanks for educating us!! 💐💐
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  #108  
Old 06-14-2014, 09:56 PM
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Before her marriage to Prince Leopold, Parliament voted that Princess Charlotte was to have 10,000 pounds a year pin money to cover the cost of her clothes and the payment of her ladies and her personal maids.
In Charlotte & Leopold, James Chambers wrote:

Charlotte went to a musical evening at Windsor Castle. When the music was over, one of her aunts, Princess Mary, took her aside and expressed concern for her future.
'I see no chance for you of comfort,' said Princess Mary, 'and certainly not at present as things are, without your marrying.'
In Charlotte & Leopold, James Chambers wrote:

The Grand Duchess Catherine did not like the Prince Regent. But she liked very much his daughter, who was also present. In a letter to her brother the Tsar she described Charlotte as 'the most interesting member of the family'.
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  #109  
Old 07-08-2014, 11:34 PM
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Before her marriage to Prince Leopold, Parliament voted that Princess Charlotte was to have 10,000 pounds a year pin money to cover the cost of her clothes and the payment of her ladies and her personal maids.
Not sure what that is in today's money, but as I recall, at about the same time, Mrs. Bennett was quite pleased that Elizabeth was marrying a man with 10,000 a year, no matter how unpleasant she thought him.
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  #110  
Old 07-09-2014, 03:31 AM
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I couldn't find a conversion that would go back far enough for the pound, but I did find a convertor that put 10,000 US$ in 1820 as equal to 164,132.22 US$ in 2013.
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  #111  
Old 08-30-2015, 09:18 AM
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A collection of memorabilia devoted to George IV's only child Princess Charlotte, who died giving birth nearly 200 years ago, is to go on sale.

Items up for auction at Stansted Mountfitchet, Essex, include bronze medals commemorating her death inscribed with "Great Britain mourns."

The lots also include a portrait of Charlotte with her husband Prince Leopold - later the king of Belgium.
Read more: George IV's daughter Princess Charlotte items to be sold in Essex - BBC News
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  #112  
Old 08-30-2015, 05:17 PM
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This was picked up on by some when Charlotte was named. She was, if my memory serves me correctly she was much loved and hugely mourned. There is a reason Royal notices of birth state, '...was safely delivered of...', it is a hangover from when child birth was so dangerous.
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  #113  
Old 08-30-2015, 06:32 PM
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As per Wikipedia ,following Charlotte's death the whole kingdom went into deep mourning; linen-drapers ran out of black cloth!

I've always been deeply interested in the life and death of Princess Charlotte of Wales.
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  #114  
Old 09-02-2015, 04:14 AM
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Yes, Charlotte was considered the Hope of the country, and the mourning from everyone seems to have been similar to when Diana died, though in very different circumstances.
If Charlotte's baby had lived he could well have been named George after his grandfather. Therefore there could have been a King George V in the 1860's or thereabouts! Perhaps if Charlotte had gone on to have several children, Albert of Saxe-Coburg could have been in the running for one of the Princesses!

By the way, I'm sure Leopold was offered the throne of Greece several years before the chance to be King of the Belgians came to pass, but there were other candidates and so he withdrew.
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  #115  
Old 09-02-2015, 07:12 AM
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Prince Leopold lost his wife , his Child and his throne .

Charlotte said that when she shoud be Queen of England , her Husband would be King.

The Doctor commited suicide !

Prince Leopold refused the Throne of Greece and accepted the Belgian Throne.
He married the infortunate Princess Louise Marie d' Orléans who died at 38 years old. Their first Child died, afterwards they had Leopold , Philippe and one daughter called of course Charlotte.
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  #116  
Old 09-02-2015, 09:41 AM
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Yes, I believe that Leopold and Louise were reasonably happy together, but she knew that nobody could replace Charlotte in his heart. Of course, their daughter Charlotte/Carlotta also had a very tragic life.
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  #117  
Old 09-02-2015, 10:24 AM
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By the way, I'm sure Leopold was offered the throne of Greece several years before the chance to be King of the Belgians came to pass, but there were other candidates and so he withdrew.

Leopold was offered Greece, but turned it down because he felt the country was too unstable. He proved to be right, the man who ended up taking the throne - Otto of Wittelsbach struggled to maintain control of Greece throughout his reign, and was deposed in 1862. He was replaced by George of Denmark, who was more successful until being assassinated.

Then you have his son, Constantine I, who was exiled twice, his second son (who became king first) Alexander who was a puppet king, and first son George II who was exiled after a military coup. Finally, you have third son Paul, whose reign seems to have been relatively stable, and Paul's son, Constantine II, who faced a coup 3 years into his reign and was forced into exile until being officially being deposed 6 years later.

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Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
Charlotte said that when she shoud be Queen of England , her Husband would be King.

Charlotte may have wanted Leopoldo to be King of Britain, but given what happened to Albert when Victoria was Queen, I doubt it would have happened.

A British Queen does not have the power to make her husband King, only Parliament does.
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  #118  
Old 09-02-2015, 11:11 AM
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Leopold was offered Greece, but turned it down because he felt the country was too unstable. He proved to be right, the man who ended up taking the throne - Otto of Wittelsbach struggled to maintain control of Greece throughout his reign, and was deposed in 1862. He was replaced by George of Denmark, who was more successful until being assassinated.

Then you have his son, Constantine I, who was exiled twice, his second son (who became king first) Alexander who was a puppet king, and first son George II who was exiled after a military coup. Finally, you have third son Paul, whose reign seems to have been relatively stable, and Paul's son, Constantine II, who faced a coup 3 years into his reign and was forced into exile until being officially being deposed 6 years later.
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I was impressed. You mentioned in one paragraph the history of the monarchy in my country. Eventually Leopold was right monarchy had no luck finally to Greece.
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  #119  
Old 09-02-2015, 09:31 PM
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Thank you, eya.

I sometimes wonder if the Greek monarchy could have survived with a different Royal Family, or even a different set of heirs; had George I not been assassinated, or if Paul had become king sooner instead of one of his brothers (or lived longer). But then looking at the course of events - the assassination and numerous coups and sending kings into exile... Makes me wonder if Leopold may have made the right decision.
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  #120  
Old 09-02-2015, 10:25 PM
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I am sure Leopold made the right decision. The Greek throne was never stable, the result of a monarchy being virtually imposed by foreign powers rather than growing organically from the people originally and then putting down roots over the centuries.

Many of the Greek kings did their best. Young George I was so willing to learn and to integrate, learned the language very quickly, and held the throne by sheer force of personality IMO, for decades. However, after his time there were too many disputes, too many disastrous wars.

I feel sorry for Constantine. However, there are some countries that seem to be natural republics to me, and Greece is one of them.
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