Princess Alice, Grand Duchess of Hesse and by Rhine (1843-1878)

[Vasillisos Markos]

I do suspect that if her mother had lived longer that Alix might never have become that religious - not that she wouldn't have been a Christian but that it would have been a more moderate form than it took.

I thought Alice had a religious fatalism but are you saying that Alice herself was more pragmatic about religion, similar to Queen Victoria's view of religion?

 

[snowflower]

Her relationship with religon had been a complex one. She was a person who had an internal quest about God and the meaning of life, spirituality, the wonders of the nature etc.Later in life she started questioning openly the structures and the ways of the Christian Church as well as the traditional teachings about religion, because she found them somehow unfulfilling. I don't think she ever lost her faith to God (or let's say to a Divine Power), however. To me, the most remarkable thing is that she was quite out spoken about her ideas and she shocked quite a few people who thought that she was thinking in an improper way. Kaiserin Augusta for example said once that " Princess Louis of Hesse is a complete atheist" in front of Vicky , who felt greatly disturbed.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I thought Alice had a religious fatalism but are you saying that Alice herself was more pragmatic about religion, similar to Queen Victoria's view of religion?

There is that but I was more suggesting that Alix found solace in religion at an early age due to the loss of her mother and thus had her mother lived longer she wouldn't have been as religious.

 

[snowflower]

Alice in her wedding dress

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Wonderful wedding photo, thanks, Snowflower!

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

I am currently re-reading a biography, Alexandra: The Last Empress and I was struck by two facts so far, one profound, one amusing. The first was Alice's view on religion and how the Darmstadters would shake their heads in private at her heretical views, such as the historical Jesus was far different from the religious Jesus and the embellishments provided by the clergy. I am in total agreement with this view.

The second was Victoria's desire to marry Beatrice to Alice's widowed husband, Louis. To her dismay the Queen discovered that British law forbade the marriage of a man to his deceased wife's sister. I wonder when this law was passed because there was no impediment to Henry VIII marrying his deceased brother's wife after the pope blessed the union. Of course, there might have been a difference, in the eyes of the legislators, between a man marrying his deceased wife's sister and a man marrying his deceased brother's wife. Maybe a woman could not marry her deceased husband's brother either.

 

[Warren]

The issue of Henry marrying his deceased brother's wife rested upon the question of whether the marriage was consummated or not, plus there was the usual scheming between the wily Henry VII and Catherine's father over a new marriage contract. Henry had the upper hand in that matter as he had possession of Catherine, but the decison as to consummation was up to the Pope, and he was not one for quick decisions. In fact Starkey says that Pope Julius had agreed to the dispensation but continued to sit on the document, a frequent Papal practice with difficult decisions.

Another complication was the death of Catherine's mother, Queen Isabella, two days after the Papal Brief finally arrived. Isabella's death devalued Catherine's worth in the royal marriage market. The union of Castile and Aragon, on which the power of Spain depended, was a purely personal one; it was created by Isabella's marriage to Ferdinand and in theory it was dissolved by her death. Catherine, the daughter of the Catholic Kings, was one of the great catches of Europe; Catherine, the daughter of the widowed Ferdinand, King once more only of the insignificant realm of Aragon, was a paltry prize. Henry VII, astutely aware of the changing market value of Catherine, did not pass up the opportunity to renegotiate her price.

In all, there was a period of seven years between the death of Arthur and the marriage with Henry and Catherine was in limbo as a "guest" of Henry VII for the duration.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Yes, I understand about the dynastic implications of the marriage between Henry and Katherine and the religious reasons for and against the marriage. My musing was directed to whether there was a legal impediment against the marriage, which obviously there was no legal proscription against the marriage during Henry's time, but there was such a ban during Victoria's time.

 

[Iluvbertie]

There was a legal impediment but the Pope could overrule that impediment. However after the Reformation he lost that right in countries that refused to acknowledge his power and progressively most countries (except Vatican City of course) have told him to keep out of their affairs.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

So the law forbidding Louis from marrying Alice's sister, Beatrice, probably came from the Bible, probably Leviticus, and there was no way Victoria, as Head of the Church of England, could overturn it. Probably worked out better this way as Beatrice was allowed to marry for love and produced children who sat on the Spanish throne.

 

[redrose_2121]

In Henry VIII's time, the pope had to issue a special dispensation so that he and Katherine could marry. As stated before, this privilege was taken away during the Reformation. My question is, does anyone have the power to do that now? Not that it is acceptable or anything, I was just wondering, theoretically who it would be.

 

[snowflower]

I don't think that there are is a Head of any church in Europe who has the power to grant such a dispensation. Not that it matters of course if he could because if his decision didn't agree with the country's law it wouldn't be binding. I guess it is sort of what applies with Catholics and divorces - The Church has the power not to grant a divorce but the Law and the state couldn't care less

 

[callista]

The saddest thing was that her mother never gave her nursing skills any credit.
There was even a heifer named Princess Alice, named so because Qn Victoria abhored the idea of her daughter breast feeding her own children.

Is this really true? After all the good things written about Queen Victoria, I can't believe she can be callous towards her daughter or children. Any mother will always be devastated when one of her children dies. That's very heartbreaking.

 

[LordMountbatten]

Queen Victoria was shocked by grief at the death of her daughter Alice. Usually, death takes away whatever animosity certain persons may have for each other.

 

[Russophile]

Is this really true? After all the good things written about Queen Victoria, I can't believe she can be callous towards her daughter or children. Any mother will always be devastated when one of her children dies. That's very heartbreaking.

You have to take into consideration the times. Even in the 60's my mother abhored breast feeding and thus did not feed us that way. It didn't become vogue until the 80's. Queen Victoria loved all her children, she was just used to getting her own way and was very demanding.

 

[snowflower]

Queen Victoria was indeed shocked about Alice's death - that's why she also took her grandchildren under her wings. She felt great remosre for her death because the few years previous to her death they were always fighting about something - Victoria's behaviour towards Edward, Alice's complaints about her husband and demanding time in Darmstadt, Alice's circle etc. Not to mention that ALice even deared to say out loud in a family gathering that enough was enough, it was time for her to end severe mourning - something that Victoria found unforgivable. Alice was not a diplomat when it came to her mother and did not "chew" her words in front of her - but on the other hand , being a very sensitive person , she could not easily bear the fights she had with Victoria and her feeling would get very hurt. A couple of months before her death she even said something along the lines of : " I feel that I am going to die soon, giving Mama quite a relief I suppose". Too bad they never had the chance to reconcile from all these petty fights.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Wow, I never realized there was such a contentious relationship between the Queen and Princess Alice. This fact, plus the Queen's grief at Alice's death, reminds me of the relationship and love between the mother and daughter in Terms of Endearment.

 

[jonnydep]

btw didnt the grand duke after their divorce, pay his former wife off with a large amount of money ?

The story goes, that after the annulment of her marriage to the Grand-Duke, Mme Kolemine had retreated to Moscow, but had taken with her all the Grand-Duke's love letter's!. Kolemine now attempted or threatened to blackmail the Grand-Duke, but it is said these threats came to nothing. Nevertheless she did rather well for herself in spite of her blackmailing failure as she was granted a title and given a large annual allowance, this did not cease when she married M. de Bacharecht, nor when the Grand-Duke died !

Well IMO, it seems that Kolemine had been successful in Blackmailing the Grand-Duke and it was decided to buy the poor woman off. A sad decison as the Grand-Duke had lived and loved her for years and she was more kinder and nicer towards him than, the late Grand-Duchess Alice, who it is said had become quite bored with her husbands pedestrian mind and often showed it !

 

[jonnydep]

So the law forbidding Louis from marrying Alice's sister, Beatrice, probably came from the Bible, probably Leviticus, and there was no way Victoria, as Head of the Church of England, could overturn it. Probably worked out better this way as Beatrice was allowed to marry for love and produced children who sat on the Spanish throne.

Well apparently the Queen's hopes was dashed, as the bill which would have made possible a marriage with a deceased wife's sister was thrown out by the House of Lord's...."Incredible!" had been Queen Victoria's comment !!.
Am wondering as to how Princess Beatrice viewed the idea of herself marrying a widowed brother in law twenty year's her senior and did the Grand Duke agree to the suggested marriage ?

 

[Russophile]

The story goes, that after the annulment of her marriage to the Grand-Duke, Mme Kolemine had retreated to Moscow, but had taken with her all the Grand-Duke's love letter's!. Kolemine now attempted or threatened to blackmail the Grand-Duke, but it is said these threats came to nothing. Nevertheless she did rather well for herself in spite of her blackmailing failure as she was granted a title and given a large annual allowance, this did not cease when she married M. de Bacharecht, nor when the Grand-Duke died !

Well IMO, it seems that Kolemine had been successful in Blackmailing the Grand-Duke and it was decided to buy the poor woman off. A sad decison as the Grand-Duke had lived and loved her for years and she was more kinder and nicer towards him than, the late Grand-Duchess Alice, who it is said had become quite bored with her husbands pedestrian mind and often showed it !

JD, I know you ALWAYS do your research (because that's who you are! ) now, where might Russo find this info. to peruse for herself?? You know Russo always loves a good bit of gossip!

 

[jonnydep]

JD, I know you ALWAYS do your research (because that's who you are! ) now, where might Russo find this info. to peruse for herself?? You know Russo always loves a good bit of gossip!

Hi Russo,
Well various sources not just one
But i would like to suggest three books dealing with the family....
Hessian Tapestry....by David Duff
Louis and Victoria: The First Mountbattens....by Richard Hough.
The Mountbattens: The Battenburgs and young Mountbatten..by Anthony Lambton
these are very informative for those who has an interest in the family.....well worth a read Russo

 

[Russophile]

Hi Russo,
Well various sources not just one
But i would like to suggest three books dealing with the family....
Hessian Tapestry....by David Duff
Louis and Victoria: The First Mountbattens....by Richard Hough.
The Mountbattens: The Battenburgs and young Mountbatten..by Anthony Lamton
these are very informative for those who has an interest in the family.....well worth a read Russo

Thank you Dah-link!
Russo did read the one on the Hesse's as the collection was here in Portland at the museum a couple years back. However! Russo was a bone-head and did not go to it. Regretting it ever since!

 

[jonnydep]

Well Russo more about the Kolemine affair !
Prince Louis of Battenburg married Princess Victoria of hesse the daughter of the Grand Duke Louis IV. Though the Grand Duke Louis had promised his late wife the Grand Duchess Alice, that he would allow their children to marry for love, and he readily gave his consent to this marriage, the news was not welcomed elsewhere....

The Hessian Parliament rudely opposed the marriage and refused to give the Princess her dowry, because she was marrying beneath her and will become a morganatic. In the Berlin and Russian courts there was insulting remarks about the anteccedents of Prince Louis and the Battenburg's! Moreover given this feeling towards the marriage, it is understandable as to why some guests at the wedding reacted in the way they did when the bombshell of the Grand Dukes secret second marriage was leaked out. Well think of it: the Grand Duke had made a unsuitable marriage on the very day that his daughter had married a Battenburg, for the Battenburgs was hated in many eyes throughout Europe and what more the Grand Duke had not realised his family ties with the Imperial houses of Britain, Germany and Russia entailed so complete a surrender of his personal freedom.

The Grand Ducal Palace became deserted. The Empress Augusta of Germany was informed and the old Empress, already displeased with the enagement of Priness Elizabeth of Hesse to Grand Duke Serge of Russia and the romance between her Granddaughter Princess Victoria of Prussia with a hated Battenburg, now ordered the Crown Princes and Princess to leave Darmstadt, which they did on the 2nd of May!. Court officials developed colds and were confined to their rooms. Ministers found business to attend to in near by towns. At long last Queen Victoria, who remained outwardly calm -but behind closed doors there was tamtrums- sent for her son the Prince of Wales, she ordered him to interview Kolemine and to arrange that the marriage to be declared null and void....she had spoken!

The old Queen was not adove interpreting the sacredness of marriage to suit her own convenience and in this marriage she found nothing sacred about it at all. it was not until late June or early July that the marriage was annulled, Hermann Sahel the former German Secretary to the Queen, who had retired to Darmstadt, reported to Sir Henry Ponsonby "You will be glad to hear that substantially the untieing of the morganantic knot is accomplished, and by degrees the formal severance will be pronounced by a court of Law convened for the purpose".

It is said that the marriage between the Grand Duke and Alexandrine von Kolemine was not consummated. so i guess that was the grounds for the annulment of the marriage!

Kolemine was introduced to the Grand Duke by Prince Isenburg and his wife, who encouraged the liaison. The two elder girls (Princess Victoria and Princess Elizabeth) was fully aware of their fathers friendship and often accompanied the couple on their walks. Very soon there was rumours of a wedding in the air, Princess Victoria declared "Papa will never marry again", however the Grand Duke abmitted that "he could hardly bear the thought of further loneliness in his life after she [Princess Victoria] left him. Indeed it is said that over time the Grand Ducal children was glad to think she would there for their father after they married off themselves!.

The Battenburg / Hesse wedding took place in Darmstadt on 30th April 1884, after the wedding banquet, the Grand Duke unnoticed left his guests for a while and entered a room in the Scloss, there Kolemine and three men were waiting for him.....not long afterwards he left the room as a married man, Starck the Prime Minister of Hesse had married him to Kolemine, the witnesses being Prince Isenburg and the brides brother!. Princess Victoria, later wrote (as Lady Milford Haven) the following...."Influenced, i fancy, by Madame de Kolemine's dread of opposition to the marriage , nobody had been told of it.except his children and prosective sons in law. Though Louis and Serge were in dispair about it. they gave their promise to keep the secret. We others quite liked the lady, who was full of intentions towards us and i hoped my father would less lonely when married to a woman he was much in love with."

 

[Russophile]

Prince Louis and Princess Victoria, that was Ena's parents?

Thanks for the info. JD!

 

[jonnydep]

Well, no Ena's parents was Prince Henry of Battenburg, the younger brother of Prince Louis, and Princess Beatrice, a aunt of Princess Victoria of Hesse. As mentioned within this thread, it was hoped that this same Princess Beatrice would marry her widowed brother in law the Grand Duke Louis IV of Hesse.....
Btw it is said that Princess Beatrice had fallen in love with Prince Henry of Battenburg, Whilst attending the wedding of Princess Victoria of Hesse to Prince Louis of Battenburg !

 

[Russophile]

Well, no Ena's parents was Prince Henry of Battenburg, the younger brother of Prince Louis, and Princess Beatrice, a aunt of Princess Victoria of Hesse. As mentioned within this thread, it was hoped that this same Princess Beatrice would marry her widowed brother in law the Grand Duke Louis IV of Hesse.....
Btw it is said that princess Beatrice had fallen in love with Prince Henry of Battenburg, Whilst attending the wedding of Princess Victoria of Hesse to Prince Louis of Battenburg !

Thanks JD! You know too well how lazy Russo is and she didn't take the trouble to look it up! However! your anecdotes are much more informative and interesting!

 

[Katrianna]

Fascinating accounts jonnydep!

 

[Grandduchess24]

Alice seemed to have been the princess who was wanting to be normal, share her riches with others and was the one it help people,much like her daughter Elisabeth .
She also decided to not take a wet nurse like other royals and breastfed her children herself to which her mother called her a "cow" ,but every mother must forgive her children and according to comments about her in this forum it seems like Victoria grieved over alice's sudden death of diptheria leaving her children with no mother ,but they still had grandmama Vicky.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

One of Alice's organizations, the Princess Alice Women's Guild, became a national one, and took over much of the day-to-day running of the military hospitals in Darmstadt.
​

Did Princess Alice learn her nursing skills in England before she moved to Hesse-Darmstadt?

Definitely there is some confusion.
Wikipedia refers to Alice as Grand Duchess of Hesse and by Rhine. However, Getty Images refers to Alice as Grand Duchess of Hesse-Darmstadt.
Alice Maud Mary, Grand Duchess of Hesse-Darmstadt, c1860s. Portrait... News Photo | Getty Images
Which is correct for Princess Alice's title?

 

[Curryong]

Alice was not an intellectual like her sister Vicky but she was intelligent. As well she inherited something of the melancholy and fatalism of the Prince Consort. She never really recovered from the accidental death of her son Frederich, 'Frittie' and there were days when she didn't get out of bed.

Nevertheless, from the beginning, Alice tried hard to turn little Darmstadt into a centre for culture. She argued religion with the controversial writer David Strauss, (which didn't please conservative Lutherans). The poet Lord Tennyson, historian Thomas Carlyle and art critic John Ruskin often stayed with her. She played duets on the piano with Johannes Brahms.