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  #61  
Old 04-18-2010, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
I do suspect that if her mother had lived longer that Alix might never have become that religious - not that she wouldn't have been a Christian but that it would have been a more moderate form than it took.
I thought Alice had a religious fatalism but are you saying that Alice herself was more pragmatic about religion, similar to Queen Victoria's view of religion?
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  #62  
Old 04-18-2010, 03:30 PM
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Her relationship with religon had been a complex one. She was a person who had an internal quest about God and the meaning of life, spirituality, the wonders of the nature etc.Later in life she started questioning openly the structures and the ways of the Christian Church as well as the traditional teachings about religion, because she found them somehow unfulfilling. I don't think she ever lost her faith to God (or let's say to a Divine Power), however. To me, the most remarkable thing is that she was quite out spoken about her ideas and she shocked quite a few people who thought that she was thinking in an improper way. Kaiserin Augusta for example said once that " Princess Louis of Hesse is a complete atheist" in front of Vicky , who felt greatly disturbed.
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  #63  
Old 04-18-2010, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos View Post
I thought Alice had a religious fatalism but are you saying that Alice herself was more pragmatic about religion, similar to Queen Victoria's view of religion?

There is that but I was more suggesting that Alix found solace in religion at an early age due to the loss of her mother and thus had her mother lived longer she wouldn't have been as religious.
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  #64  
Old 04-29-2010, 01:12 PM
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Alice in her wedding dress
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  #65  
Old 05-01-2010, 12:09 AM
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Wonderful wedding photo, thanks, Snowflower!
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  #66  
Old 05-08-2010, 10:23 PM
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I am currently re-reading a biography, Alexandra: The Last Empress and I was struck by two facts so far, one profound, one amusing. The first was Alice's view on religion and how the Darmstadters would shake their heads in private at her heretical views, such as the historical Jesus was far different from the religious Jesus and the embellishments provided by the clergy. I am in total agreement with this view.

The second was Victoria's desire to marry Beatrice to Alice's widowed husband, Louis. To her dismay the Queen discovered that British law forbade the marriage of a man to his deceased wife's sister. I wonder when this law was passed because there was no impediment to Henry VIII marrying his deceased brother's wife after the pope blessed the union. Of course, there might have been a difference, in the eyes of the legislators, between a man marrying his deceased wife's sister and a man marrying his deceased brother's wife. Maybe a woman could not marry her deceased husband's brother either.
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Old 05-08-2010, 11:08 PM
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The issue of Henry marrying his deceased brother's wife rested upon the question of whether the marriage was consummated or not, plus there was the usual scheming between the wily Henry VII and Catherine's father over a new marriage contract. Henry had the upper hand in that matter as he had possession of Catherine, but the decison as to consummation was up to the Pope, and he was not one for quick decisions. In fact Starkey says that Pope Julius had agreed to the dispensation but continued to sit on the document, a frequent Papal practice with difficult decisions.

Another complication was the death of Catherine's mother, Queen Isabella, two days after the Papal Brief finally arrived. Isabella's death devalued Catherine's worth in the royal marriage market. The union of Castile and Aragon, on which the power of Spain depended, was a purely personal one; it was created by Isabella's marriage to Ferdinand and in theory it was dissolved by her death. Catherine, the daughter of the Catholic Kings, was one of the great catches of Europe; Catherine, the daughter of the widowed Ferdinand, King once more only of the insignificant realm of Aragon, was a paltry prize. Henry VII, astutely aware of the changing market value of Catherine, did not pass up the opportunity to renegotiate her price.

In all, there was a period of seven years between the death of Arthur and the marriage with Henry and Catherine was in limbo as a "guest" of Henry VII for the duration.
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  #68  
Old 05-09-2010, 01:08 AM
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Yes, I understand about the dynastic implications of the marriage between Henry and Katherine and the religious reasons for and against the marriage. My musing was directed to whether there was a legal impediment against the marriage, which obviously there was no legal proscription against the marriage during Henry's time, but there was such a ban during Victoria's time.
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  #69  
Old 05-09-2010, 01:11 AM
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There was a legal impediment but the Pope could overrule that impediment. However after the Reformation he lost that right in countries that refused to acknowledge his power and progressively most countries (except Vatican City of course) have told him to keep out of their affairs.
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  #70  
Old 05-09-2010, 08:37 AM
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So the law forbidding Louis from marrying Alice's sister, Beatrice, probably came from the Bible, probably Leviticus, and there was no way Victoria, as Head of the Church of England, could overturn it. Probably worked out better this way as Beatrice was allowed to marry for love and produced children who sat on the Spanish throne.
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Old 05-10-2010, 04:32 PM
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In Henry VIII's time, the pope had to issue a special dispensation so that he and Katherine could marry. As stated before, this privilege was taken away during the Reformation. My question is, does anyone have the power to do that now? Not that it is acceptable or anything, I was just wondering, theoretically who it would be.
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  #72  
Old 05-10-2010, 04:55 PM
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I don't think that there are is a Head of any church in Europe who has the power to grant such a dispensation. Not that it matters of course if he could because if his decision didn't agree with the country's law it wouldn't be binding. I guess it is sort of what applies with Catholics and divorces - The Church has the power not to grant a divorce but the Law and the state couldn't care less
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  #73  
Old 05-23-2010, 12:31 AM
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The saddest thing was that her mother never gave her nursing skills any credit.
There was even a heifer named Princess Alice, named so because Qn Victoria abhored the idea of her daughter breast feeding her own children.
Is this really true? After all the good things written about Queen Victoria, I can't believe she can be callous towards her daughter or children. Any mother will always be devastated when one of her children dies. That's very heartbreaking.
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  #74  
Old 05-23-2010, 07:01 PM
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Queen Victoria was shocked by grief at the death of her daughter Alice. Usually, death takes away whatever animosity certain persons may have for each other.
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  #75  
Old 05-24-2010, 03:35 PM
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Is this really true? After all the good things written about Queen Victoria, I can't believe she can be callous towards her daughter or children. Any mother will always be devastated when one of her children dies. That's very heartbreaking.
You have to take into consideration the times. Even in the 60's my mother abhored breast feeding and thus did not feed us that way. It didn't become vogue until the 80's. Queen Victoria loved all her children, she was just used to getting her own way and was very demanding.
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  #76  
Old 05-24-2010, 03:39 PM
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Queen Victoria was indeed shocked about Alice's death - that's why she also took her grandchildren under her wings. She felt great remosre for her death because the few years previous to her death they were always fighting about something - Victoria's behaviour towards Edward, Alice's complaints about her husband and demanding time in Darmstadt, Alice's circle etc. Not to mention that ALice even deared to say out loud in a family gathering that enough was enough, it was time for her to end severe mourning - something that Victoria found unforgivable. Alice was not a diplomat when it came to her mother and did not "chew" her words in front of her - but on the other hand , being a very sensitive person , she could not easily bear the fights she had with Victoria and her feeling would get very hurt. A couple of months before her death she even said something along the lines of : " I feel that I am going to die soon, giving Mama quite a relief I suppose". Too bad they never had the chance to reconcile from all these petty fights.
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Old 05-24-2010, 05:58 PM
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Wow, I never realized there was such a contentious relationship between the Queen and Princess Alice. This fact, plus the Queen's grief at Alice's death, reminds me of the relationship and love between the mother and daughter in Terms of Endearment.
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  #78  
Old 07-30-2010, 04:29 PM
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btw didnt the grand duke after their divorce, pay his former wife off with a large amount of money ?
The story goes, that after the annulment of her marriage to the Grand-Duke, Mme Kolemine had retreated to Moscow, but had taken with her all the Grand-Duke's love letter's!. Kolemine now attempted or threatened to blackmail the Grand-Duke, but it is said these threats came to nothing. Nevertheless she did rather well for herself in spite of her blackmailing failure as she was granted a title and given a large annual allowance, this did not cease when she married M. de Bacharecht, nor when the Grand-Duke died !

Well IMO, it seems that Kolemine had been successful in Blackmailing the Grand-Duke and it was decided to buy the poor woman off. A sad decison as the Grand-Duke had lived and loved her for years and she was more kinder and nicer towards him than, the late Grand-Duchess Alice, who it is said had become quite bored with her husbands pedestrian mind and often showed it !
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  #79  
Old 07-30-2010, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos View Post
So the law forbidding Louis from marrying Alice's sister, Beatrice, probably came from the Bible, probably Leviticus, and there was no way Victoria, as Head of the Church of England, could overturn it. Probably worked out better this way as Beatrice was allowed to marry for love and produced children who sat on the Spanish throne.
Well apparently the Queen's hopes was dashed, as the bill which would have made possible a marriage with a deceased wife's sister was thrown out by the House of Lord's...."Incredible!" had been Queen Victoria's comment !!.
Am wondering as to how Princess Beatrice viewed the idea of herself marrying a widowed brother in law twenty year's her senior and did the Grand Duke agree to the suggested marriage ?
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Old 07-30-2010, 04:56 PM
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The story goes, that after the annulment of her marriage to the Grand-Duke, Mme Kolemine had retreated to Moscow, but had taken with her all the Grand-Duke's love letter's!. Kolemine now attempted or threatened to blackmail the Grand-Duke, but it is said these threats came to nothing. Nevertheless she did rather well for herself in spite of her blackmailing failure as she was granted a title and given a large annual allowance, this did not cease when she married M. de Bacharecht, nor when the Grand-Duke died !

Well IMO, it seems that Kolemine had been successful in Blackmailing the Grand-Duke and it was decided to buy the poor woman off. A sad decison as the Grand-Duke had lived and loved her for years and she was more kinder and nicer towards him than, the late Grand-Duchess Alice, who it is said had become quite bored with her husbands pedestrian mind and often showed it !
JD, I know you ALWAYS do your research (because that's who you are! ) now, where might Russo find this info. to peruse for herself?? You know Russo always loves a good bit of gossip!
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