Prince Albert Victor, Duke of Clarence, eldest son of Edward VII (1864-1892)

[loali2]

I have never seen that second photograph. It is very nice. I think part of AV's problem was that he was somewhat deaf. That could account for his lack of learning. I wish there was film of him not just still photographs. This is a bit off topic but, does anyone know if there exists a recording of Edward VII's voice? There are some sound recordings from that time period (1901-1910). Thanks.

Bertie is one of my absolute favs (yes three)... and iv never heard any. however they certainly may exist. ill check it out.

His mother was certainly recorded. iv heard that.

 

[Warren]

While we are on a roll with this particular thread, some of the interesting lines of discussion could be continued in these:

King Edward VII & Queen Alexandra
Queen Mary
Prince John (1905-1919)
The Queen as Mother and Grandmother

 

[cmkrcwi]

I believe the Queen Mother did know about her two cousins. She was very friendly with her brother John's other children and it is highly unlikely that a new baby could be born into that family with others not being aware of it as they were very close. The two girls were missing a vital nerve in their brains which was a genetic defect inherited from their mother's family. John and Fenella's other children were normal, one of whom, Anne, (mother of Lord Lichfield) married as her second husband a Prince of Denmark. The two girls were kept at home for as long as possible, but when they began to be a danger to themselves and others they were sent to live in a hospital where they could be cared for and kept out of harm's way.

I don't believe anyone's ever claimed that she had no idea that these cousins even existed. I think she believed they had died just as the Bowes-Lyon family said they had.

 

[lilibet80]

Bowes-Lyon cousins

I don't believe anyone's ever claimed that she had no idea that these cousins even existed. I think she believed they had died just as the Bowes-Lyon family said they had.

I was quoting Polly who wrote "In the instance of the Queen Mother's cousins (I think that they were), Her Majesty had no idea that they existed!

They were at home until one was 22 and the other one 15, so certainly the QM knew of them. Whether she was told that they both died is another story. It is possible that that was what she was told, but I really doubt it as the family was very close knit and she may have known and approved. The two girls were too sick to keep in the house any longer, but the family waited as long as they could. That they put out the story that they had died was probably because they felt it was nobody's business what had happened to them.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

I'm curious about the medical conditions and illnesses, even the most minor, everything medical related to Prince Albert Victor. Can we discuss it here, and if so, is there someone who knows about his medical history? Is it a discussion for another thread, i.e. the one I forgot where it is.... something about royal medical histories and information.

 

[Warren]

In the general British Forum we have the Haemophilia thread, but since this isn't relevant to Albert Victor we should discuss all aspects of him in his own thread (ie, here).

 

[loali2]

This evening I will post about Eddy's various illnesses and "rumored" illnesses. If anyone is interested.

I also have a theory that Eddy suffered from what we know call Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD).

 

[Alexandra RI]

I had also wondered if Eddy suffered from (ADD). It would explain a lot. He had some good qualities. Wasn't he much loved by his mother and sisters?

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

Indeed... he was adored by his family. As Jo said in another post here, Alexandra his mother maintained his room at Sandringham, where he died, exactly as it was for the whole rest of her life.

He might have had ADD. I think he had something going on which in today's time could have been effectively recognized and treated.

 

[lilibet80]

Queen Alexandra's intelligence

His mother, Princess Alexandra, was profoundly deaf. There has never been any suggestion that she was uneducated, ignorant, or unintelligent. She had been beautifully raised by enlightened and compassionate parents, and it showed!

According to Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone, in her book "For my Grandchildren" she says of Queen Alexandra in reference to the relationship of Edward VII and Alice Keppel: "Aunt Alix was renowned for her beauty, very lovely, with a gracious presence and a disposition which endeared her to the public who worshipped her. But being stone deaf and not mentally very bright, she was not much of a companion for an intelligent man like Uncle Bertie."

 

[loali2]

I had also wondered if Eddy suffered from (ADD). It would explain a lot. He had some good qualities. Wasn't he much loved by his mother and sisters?

All of the 'Wales' children were very close. Eddy also got along very well with women in general.

As a child and teenager, Eddy was very unattentive and uninterested when it came to studies. According to his tutors, he seemed incapable of focusing on anything that was not of the utmost interest to him. He was simply listless and noticably lethargic when it came to learning. As an ADD sufferer myself, (I actually have ADHD), I can see many striking similarities between Eddy's symptoms and my own.

This is not to suggest that he was dumb at all or had a real learning disability. He spoke and wrote on the same level as everyone else. He just was not interested in academics. He preffered the social clubs and organizations, like his father.

Eddy did suffer from chronic ill health in his adult years but it never seemed to hinder his daily life. It is rumored that Eddy suffered from sexually transmitted diseases such as gonorrhea and syphilis. there are rumors that his death was actually due to an untreated case of sypilis. This seems highly far fetched though.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

Yes, that's absolutely right about 'problem' family members being hidden away in the past.

It is a problem that persists today, although in other ways. People always hide what they fear and do not understand sufficiently. Things like medical disabilities or abnormalities are better understood today, so they are not so much hidden in our times. In Prince Albert Victor's time, his family and everyone who encountered him were just bewildered by what his problem was. He just seemed "slow" and "stupid". Prince John, having epilepsy, had fits and the source of the seizures were a cause for fear, being an enigma to even the most learned scientific researchers. I myself have a mild form of epilepsy yet I have not had a seizure in many years and I take medication and I am functioning person in the world, whereas in Prince John's time, I might have been shut up in a house or hospital like him.

I don't understand why Prince John was an "embarassment" though. That part doesn't make sense to me. What did he do that embarassed the family? Anyway, it's off topic.... sorry.

 

[Furienna]

That's an interesting theory, that he might have had a disorder, that we have a name for today. I have Asperger's syndrome myself, and I find it really interesting wondering about who might have had disorders like this in the past, before there were names for them. But some times, researching what we know about people in the past, like Albert Victor, might give us an idea.

 

[loali2]

That's an interesting theory, that he might have had a disorder, that we have a name for today. I have Asperger's syndrome myself, and I find it really interesting wondering about who might have had disorders like this in the past, before there were names for them. But some times, researching what we know about people in the past, like Albert Victor, might give us an idea.

Well said. I agree.

Surely certain people suffered from these same symptoms and disorders in the past. People are people, then and now. Our brains function the same way theres did.

 

[loali2]

It is a problem that persists today, although in other ways. People always hide what they fear and do not understand sufficiently. Things like medical disabilities or abnormalities are better understood today, so they are not so much hidden in our times. In Prince Albert Victor's time, his family and everyone who encountered him were just bewildered by what his problem was. He just seemed "slow" and "stupid".

Most of Eddy's peers did not see him as "slow" or "stupid", just a bit strange at times.

Eddy was also a bit of a starer and had a definate hearing problem.

 

[Roderick]

Hello. I am new to the forum and I hope I can have some positive input. My interests are the british royal family in particular 19th and 20th century royals.

I have read with interest this topic on Prince Albert Victor.

With respect to Polly: I think she has let rumours cloud the truth about the life of PAV. Polly believes some historians still think PAV was Jack the Ripper. In truth royal historians have dismissed him as having an association with the murders a long time ago. Crime writers even good ones cannot be viewed in the same way as credible royal historians. They have an agenda.

I know of the personal flaws of AV but in life he seemed to be considered a kindly, gentle and well mannered young man by those who knew him. I do not think there was anything wrong with him other than some kind of attention deficit. He wasn’t a very bright man but that seems to be no reason to despise him. I also do not think AV was homosexual as no evidence has come to light of homosexual behaviour and nor has his name been mentioned with that of another man. Rumours have to be proved and they have not been here.

I think Casiraghitrio is right to say that his family was very shocked and saddened at his death as opposed to what Polly has said that his family was relieved at his death. They most certainly were not.

There are perhaps some other things I would like to take up here but I think I have said enough for now. Bye until next time.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

With respect to Polly: I think she has let rumours cloud the truth about the life of PAV. Polly believes some historians still think PAV was Jack the Ripper. In truth royal historians have dismissed him as having an association with the murders a long time ago. Crime writers even good ones cannot be viewed in the same way as credible royal historians. They have an agenda.

Thanks for your post, Roderick. I wonder, though, what historians still believe AV was the Ripper? I read a lot and I am a student of history, and I never met a historian or read one's view who maintains the "AV was Ripper" theory. Where are such historians?

As far as I know, there was never any sufficient evidence to prove AV was Ripper. Neither at the time nor in retrospect. One of Ripper's victims had a letter from AV and that was one thing that started the rumors, but it was all circumstantial stuff like that; there was also that AV sometimes went to a bar where some of Ripper's victims had been seen last.

As I said before, I am a strong believer in the Sickert theory.... I just never met anyone who seriously believes the AV theory. Never, not anyone. All I've read is the suspicion, the rumors, the circumstantial connection, but never anything definitive.

 

[lilibet80]

Albert Victor

Actually, Polly, what I meant to say in my post was that Albert Victor was dearly loved by his family. Whatever Albert Victor's character flaws were, I can't imagine his family saw themselves as "better off" without him. Everything I have read indicates that his entire family were genuinely devastated when he died. I find it difficult to believe that his mother ever felt he was "better off" dead. No, correction: I find it impossible to believe that. I don't know any mothers who believe that of their dead children.

I believe that the sense of relief when he died was more to do with his not being the next king than with relief at losing him personally. He was exceptionally stupid. His brother who became George V was not very bright either, but was not involved in the kind of scandals that became associated with Eddy's name. There was some sort of congenital problem. His arms hung down rather like a monkey's and he used to cover them up with large cuffs. He was nicknamed "Eddy Collar and Cuffs". With true Victorian histrionics, the mourning for him was overdone, and in no way do I imply that anyone wished him dead. I just think that they were relieved that George and not Eddy was to become king, as Eddy had very little control over his impulses and had a long history of getting into trouble. He was a very disturbed man.

 

[Furienna]

For the sake of the royal family, I really hope Eddy wasn't Jack the Ripper. Even the royal family of today, who are generations away from him, would have had to be ashamed of that, if it was true.

 

[Roderick]

There was some sort of congenital problem. His arms hung down rather like a monkey's and he used to cover them up with large cuffs. He was nicknamed "Eddy Collar and Cuffs". With true Victorian histrionics, the mourning for him was overdone, and in no way do I imply that anyone wished him dead. I just think that they were relieved that George and not Eddy was to become king, as Eddy had very little control over his impulses and had a long history of getting into trouble. He was a very disturbed man.

To lilibet80: Again I must ask where evidence for this comes from? If PAV had a congenital problem it was certainly not obvious in photographs nor was it discussed in correspondence by the royal family or members of the court. While there is evidence that he was not blessed with great intelligence was easily influenced and not of strong moral fibre what exists for anybody to claim that PAV was disturbed? That is a very different thing altogether.

I do think people tend to get a little carried away about PAV and his life.

Thankyou for your welcome Casiraghitrio.

 

[loali2]

I believe that the sense of relief when he died was more to do with his not being the next king than with relief at losing him personally. He was exceptionally stupid. His brother who became George V was not very bright either, but was not involved in the kind of scandals that became associated with Eddy's name. There was some sort of congenital problem. His arms hung down rather like a monkey's and he used to cover them up with large cuffs. He was nicknamed "Eddy Collar and Cuffs". With true Victorian histrionics, the mourning for him was overdone, and in no way do I imply that anyone wished him dead. I just think that they were relieved that George and not Eddy was to become king, as Eddy had very little control over his impulses and had a long history of getting into trouble. He was a very disturbed man.

Well he did not have a congenital problem, he simply had a really long neck, and rather long arms. His mother had a rather long neck.

 

[Polly]

Hi Roderick -

A correction: Polly does not, indeed she does not, believe that Eddy was Jack the Ripper! Never has, never will!.

Sometimes on a board such as this, things can be become, quite innocently, confused. I mentioned once that some conspiracy theorists state that Eddy died insane at Osborne House, which I intended as an example of wild and inaccurate deductions, but I do not believe it. Imagine my surprise when someone confused what I'd written and repeated it as my own opinion.

Best,
Polly

 

[Elspeth]

Polly, I think Roderick was saying that you thought reputable historians (as opposed to novelists and royal watchers) believed the Duke of Clarence was Jack the Ripper, not that you yourself believed he was.

 

[Roderick]

Elspeth is correct and my apologies to Polly for misunderstanding her post. I hope we can all continue to talk about the life of PAV sometime in the future.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

As I said before, I am a strong believer in the Sickert theory....

For me the book about Sickert was the reason I stopped reading Patricia Cornwell. Her arguments about the DNA are not the whole truth and other claims are as well just that: claims presented as truth.

Did she or anyone else who puts Sickert forward not realise that the guy had children, whose offspring must now read that they are descended from "Jack the Ripper"?

The German family of Walter Sickert protested after the book was published here in Germany and a TV-station redid some of Cormwell's test (eg the comparison of letters allegedly written by Jack the Ripper with letters Sickert wrote to his family) and heard from experts that there is no similarity. Plus the family could show letters from Walter Sickert's mother to her family from the holiday in France during which the Ripper killed one of his victims who proved that Walter had not left the family for London.

Thus for me the Cornwell-book is slander and if it is true that the author really bought paintings by Sickert and had them destroyed in order to find more DNA, then this is an act of barbarism, which I cannot accept from an fellow artist. Even if she is "only" a writer.

But Cornwell's arguments why prince Eddy wasn't the ripper are acceptable I think. At least she did not find a witness or letters to disprove that he spent time with queen Victoria while a murder happened.

 

[Ex-Princess Lisa]

I'm not quite sure of what the Sickert theory is.

I have my own conspiriousy theory for the Duke of Clarence. I dare not put it on here and risk getting banned. Maybe I can risk writing it if I make clear it is my own personal theory and I have no proof of it.

 

[Roderick]

But Cornwell's arguments why prince Eddy wasn't the ripper are acceptable I think. At least she did not find a witness or letters to disprove that he spent time with queen Victoria while a murder happened.

No arguments by Patricia Cornwell are necessary to prove the prince was not the infamous East End murderer or associated in any way with them. This has already been done competently by historians who it must be said possess more credibility than a crime writer though I concede Ms Cornwell is a talented author.

There is no evidence that PAV was involved in any `conspiracy theory` concerning Jack the Ripper or any other matter. Of course it is up to the forum administration people to decide if such topics warrant discussion however.

 

[windsorbrides1]

Ok, hopefully I won't be poisoned for saying this (looks around sheepishly for "Grey Men") - LOL! This is the Freemason theory:

According to a tale told by Joseph Gorman, an obscure London artist who took the name Joseph Sickert, and claimed to be the illegitimate son of Walter Sickert, suggests Eddy, on one of his visits to a homosexual brothel in Cleveland Street, met and fell in love with a young woman named Elizabeth Crook, who worked in a florists shop at 6 Cleveland Street.

A secret marriage took place, despite the fact that she was a Roman Catholic. The marriage bore a daughter Alice Margaret, one of the witnesses to the marriage was Mary Kelly. Eddy had his wife and daughter settled in an apartment in Cleveland Street, though when news of an illegitimate great-grandchild came to Queen Victoria's attention, she informed the Prime Minister Lord Salisbury, who afraid that knowledge of the existence of Alice as a Catholic heir to the throne would result in a revolution, ordered a raid on the apartment. Annie was placed in Guy's hospital under the custody of Sir William Gull, who supposedly conducted experiments on her, which drove her insane. She died on 23 February 1920 at the age of 55 after spending more then thirty years in various hospitals and workhouses. Alice survived, and was cared for by Mary Kelly, and was later said to have become Walter Sickert's mistress, they allegedly had a son Joseph. Mary Kelly then began to blackmail the government and was murdered, along with all the friends that she had confided her secret to, by a group of high ranking Freemasons, led by the Prime Minister, Robert Cecil, Sir William Gull, Lord Randolph Churchill, Sir Robert Anderson, and/or Montague John Druitt and James Kenneth Stephens.

Eddie went crazy after Annie's death. They had to get rid of him and so he was sent to Glamis Castle in Scotland where he lived until he died in 1933. Claude, Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne, the owner of Glamis Castle was promised that one of his daughters could marry one of the Royal Princes, in exchange for him keeping Eddie. 26 April 1923 Claude's daughter Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon was married to George, Duke of York who later became George VI. This would explain Elizabeth's reticence to enter a Royal marriage, because she knew what they had done to Eddie and was afraid the same thing would happen to her husband and her.

There is new proof from recently released documents that the Ripper victims may have known one another. Though some have said Robert Cecil was not a Freemason, there is clearly a picture of him with the King and Prince Eddy wearing their Freemason garb. The doctors at Eddie's official "death" - Manby, Laking and Broadbent - were also all Freemasons.

 

[CarolinaLandgrave]

Glamis Castle seems to be a place of many secrets - and not just those of the Lords Strathmore.......

Very interesting.......

 

[Menarue]

I don´t think the point is that anyone really believed that Prince Eddy was Jack the Ripper, I think the important part is that so many people believed he could have been .....that shows that there was something about Eddy that made it easy for people to think strange things about him. His mother in particular was heartbroken, she lost her first child, the others were very sad but in a way relieved that the future problem of his becoming the King of England was over and done with.
George V may have been rather slow and not very exciting but I think Princess May had a lucky escape.