Mary, Queen of Scots (1542-1587)

[Lucy63]

The Greys had shown themselves to be very unsuitable. Mary was no Einstein but she was a queen and her being Eliz's heir would untite the 2 kingdoms...

But she proclaimed herself rightful Q of E when arriving in Scotland...not rightful heir...she only did the heir bit with Elizabeth.

 

[Denville]

But she proclaimed herself rightful Q of E when arriving in Scotland...not rightful heir...she only did the heir bit with Elizabeth.

Yes because she didn't believe that Elizabeth's mother's marriage to Henry was valid... since he was married to Kath of Aragon.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Plus Mary was fresh back from France where her very powerful Guise uncles held sway and who were staunchly Catholic and did not regard Elizabeth as the rightful queen of England and had Mary well versed in their intrigues.

 

[Lucy63]

So as I said...Mary only played the “heir” game with Elizabeth. She was convinced she already was queen, despite other claims out there.

 

[Gawin]

Elizabeth was illegitimate in the eyes of the Roman Catholic Church, which didn't recognize Henry VIII"s divorce from Catherine of Aragon and his subsequent marriage to Anne Boleyn. So Catholics - including Mary - believed Mary was the rightful Queen since she was next in line following the death of Mary I, at least according to English common law.

BTW, Elizabeth was also illegitimate according to English law. The Second Succession Act of 1536 stated Henry's marriage to Anne Boleyn was null and void and their daughter Elizabeth therefore illegitimate. Because Henry's oldest daughter Mary had been declared illegitimate by the First Succession Act (1533) Henry now had no legitimate children. The Second Succession Act got around that by stating he had the right to name his successor by letters patent or in his will.

In 1543 the Third Succession Act was passed. By now Henry had a son, Edward, who was confirmed as heir. Mary and Elizabeth remained illegitimate, but were given succession rights after (1) Edward and his descendants and (2) any other legitimate children born to Henry.

In 1546 Henry wrote his will, reaffirming the line of succession as laid out by the Third Succession Act. He also stated that if Edward, Mary, and Elizabeth had no children, the throne should go to the descendants of his sister Mary (the Brandon/Grey/Cliffords), thereby disqualifying the descendants of his older sister Margaret Queen of Scotland.

When Mary I became Queen in 1553 a new statute reversed the First Succession Act, meaning her mother Catherine's marriage to Henry was recognized as valid and Mary was no longer legally illegitimate. She also repealed those parts of the Second and Third Acts that declared her to be illegitimate, but left the parts that made Elizabeth illegitimate.

So when Elizabeth became Queen she was legally illegitimate but succeeded anyway under the terms of Henry VIII's will. She did nothing to remedy the situation by revoking the Succession Acts, preferring to let sleeping dogs lie. But her dislike for the Grey/Cliffords was well-known and she ignored her father's will by allowing her courtiers - notably Robert Cecil - to promote James VI of Scotland as her successor.

Source: E. W. Ives, "Tudor Dynastic Problems Revisited," Historical Research, vol. 81, May 2008, pp. 255-279.

 

[Lucy63]

I do understand the history.

My point was that Mary was pretending to want to be named heir, when that is not what she wanted at all. She believed she was Q of E already. So the plots were bound to come. She played a game with Elizabeth, and vice versa but Elizabeth well knew it was about being queen now, not later, that Mary wanted.

 

[Gawin]

I do understand the history.

My point was that Mary was pretending to want to be named heir, when that is not what she wanted at all. She believed she was Q of E already. So the plots were bound to come. She played a game with Elizabeth, and vice versa but Elizabeth well knew it was about being queen now, not later, that Mary wanted.

I'm sorry, I was speaking to others who read this forum. You probably know a lot more about the Tudors than I do and I enjoy reading your posts and the articles you link to. ?

And yes, you're right, Mary played a lot of foolish games with Elizabeth who was much wiser.

I should also state, for the benefit of others who aren't aware of this...despite their enmity, Elizabeth seemed to prefer Mary's claim as her successor. She wasn't happy with her father's will or the Acts of Succession, which made her illegitimate, and she didn't care for the fact that even Edward VI passed over her when he chose Lady Jane Grey to succeed him. She believed succession to the crown should automatically belong to whoever had the best claim by right of birth (not chosen by King or Parliament), meaning Mary Queen of Scots.

But Elizabeth also understood the folly of declaring an heir, or what she called "her winding sheet." Anyone unhappy with Elizabeth could align themselves with the acknowledged heir and plot to hasten Elizabeth's death.

 

[Lucy63]

Mary took bad advice...when she took any advice.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Had both Mary I and Mary of Guise lived a little longer history might have changed drastically for the doomed queen of Scots!

 

[Gawin]

Or Francis II of France!

 

[Lucy63]

So many scenarios in the what ifs from that era, especially, since it all decided the fates of so many countries. All those intermarriages, marriages between countries etc had dire effects in some cases, came back to haunt in others, with so many claimants or would be claimants etc...makes it all so fascinating now, when things have been so orderly since Victoria...for England at least. Some of the marriages she encouraged did not turn out too well...

 

[Gawin]

Yes, things got a lot tamer once Parliament stepped in and put an end to all the fun. No more chopping off heads, tossing cousins into the Tower, or forcing the country to change religion, first this one, then that one, then back again. Goodness, George IV must have een so jealous of Henry VIII when he tried to rid himself of Queen Caroline!

 

[Lucy63]

Yes, things got a lot tamer once Parliament stepped in and put an end to all the fun. No more chopping off heads, tossing cousins into the Tower, or forcing the country to change religion, first this one, then that one, then back again. Goodness, George IV must have een so jealous of Henry VIII when he tried to rid himself of Queen Caroline!

Yes that is why Tudor era is so great lol...to read about, not to live in. And yes George IV was fit to be tied that he could not simply set Caroline aside, preferably on a slow boat to nowhere. That is what happens after another few hundred years of civilization I guess no more chopping off heads of wives or just banishing them to remarry.

 

[Curryong]

I think Mary Queen of Scots (on a purely personal level) would have led a much happier, more contented and fulfilled life had Francis lived to old age. She would have been Queen of France and probably left the stewardship of Scotland to her half-brother until her children grew up, though she would have visited Scotland periodically.

Of course there would then have been no Stuarts on the English throne and eventually Mary would have inherited the trifecta after Elizabeth's death. Perhaps a second son of Francis and Mary would have inherited the English and Scottish thrones and united them.

 

[Gawin]

Yes that is why Tudor era is so great lol...to read about, not to live in. And yes George IV was fit to be tied that he could not simply set Caroline aside, preferably on a slow boat to nowhere. That is what happens after another few hundred years of civilization I guess no more chopping off heads of wives or just banishing them to remarry.

I think he would have taken great pleasure in ordering her execution. Lord knows what he would have done with her head....

 

[Moonmaiden23]

I

I think Mary Queen of Scots (on a purely personal level) would have led a much happier, more contented and fulfilled life had Francis lived to old age. She would have been Queen of France and probably left the stewardship of Scotland to her half-brother until her children grew up, though she would have visited Scotland periodically.

Of course there would then have been no Stuarts on the English throne and eventually Mary would have inherited the trifecta after Elizabeth's death. Perhaps a second son of Francis and Mary would have inherited the English and Scottish thrones and united them.

Had the stars been aligned in Mary's favor that is EXACTLY how it would have played out...and history would have been so much different.

In fact, I have never been exactly sure why she didn't remain in France when Francis died...did she simply want to return to her own kingdom or did Catherine de Medici force her out?

 

[Curryong]

I think that her much reduced status as a childless widow meant that Mary was no longer of use to the French Royal family. Catherine and others probably made it clear by their dismissive coldness that she was no longer welcome to stay.

 

[Lucy63]

I thought she went to Scotland to be a queen. She was an extra at the French court by then and she would not like that. Her role in France was gone after all those years.

 

[Denville]

I'm I should also state, for the benefit of others who aren't aware of this...despite their enmity, Elizabeth seemed to prefer Mary's claim as her successor. She wasn't happy with her father's will or the Acts of Succession, which made her illegitimate, and she didn't care for the fact that even Edward VI passed over her when he chose Lady Jane Grey to succeed him. She believed succession to the crown should automatically belong to whoever had the best claim by right of birth (not chosen by King or Parliament), meaning Mary Queen of Scots.

But Elizabeth also understood the folly of declaring an heir, or what she called "her winding sheet." Anyone unhappy with Elizabeth could align themselves with the acknowledged heir and plot to hasten Elizabeth's death.

As she said, she would be queen while she lived and when she died it would go to who had the best right.. She wasn't happy with Henry's tinkering with the succession..

 

[An Ard Ri]

Catherine feared that Mary might marry another of her sons and she'd have the Duke of Guise,Cardinal of Guise and Cardinal of Lorraine breathing down her neck,I think Catherine had no love loss towards Mary and the Guise family and was happy to help Mary on her way back to Scotland.

 

[Lucy63]

Watching a bizarre version of “Maria Stuart” on Youtube. If one does not mind subtitles, it is certainly interesting, especially in the portrayal of Elizabeth (and her bright red curly wig, almost Princess Lei (?) of Star Trek). It is a German-made film, subtitles are large and easy to follow.

If link does not work, simply called Maria Stuart by F. schiller

For entertainment only, I might add...not historical accuracy. Not for sticklers...

 

[Carin]

Elizabeth was illegitimate in the eyes of the R
In 1546 Henry wrote his will, reaffirming the line of succession as laid out by the Third Succession Act. He also stated that if Edward, Mary, and Elizabeth had no children, the throne should go to the descendants of his sister Mary (the Brandon/Grey/Cliffords), thereby disqualifying the descendants of his older sister Margaret Queen of Scotland.


Source: E. W. Ives, "Tudor Dynastic Problems Revisited," Historical Research, vol. 81, May 2008, pp. 255-279.

Why do so many people refer back to Henry VIII's will regarding the succession. Surely later monarchs of the era had an equal right to make their own laws and nominate their own successors

 

[Lucy63]

True enough about0 sucession...Henry’s son did just that he named Jane Grey. And Mary reluctantly named Elizabeth at the bitter end.

 

[Gawin]

Why do so many people refer back to Henry VIII's will regarding the succession. Surely later monarchs of the era had an equal right to make their own laws and nominate their own successors

Yes, but the discussion concerned Henry's views on the succession, especially as it concerned the Stuarts, and why Mary Queen of Scots believed she was the rightful Queen not Elizabeth. So Henry's will and the Acts of Succession passed during reign are the only ones that are relevant.

 

[Lucy63]

Yes, but the discussion concerned Henry's views on the succession, especially as it concerned the Stuarts, and why Mary Queen of Scots believed she was the rightful Queen not Elizabeth. So Henry's will and the Acts of Succession passed during reign are the only ones that are relevant.

It wasn’t relevant to Mary of Scots, lol. She WAS Q of E, no matter what anyone else thought...according to her.

 

[padams2359]

Why do so many people refer back to Henry VIII's will regarding the succession. Surely later monarchs of the era had an equal right to make their own laws and nominate their own successors

Exactly. I never understood that view. What right did he have over any other succeeding monarchs?

 

[Mbruno]

I think that her much reduced status as a childless widow meant that Mary was no longer of use to the French Royal family. Catherine and others probably made it clear by their dismissive coldness that she was no longer welcome to stay.

If Francis and Mary had had a son before Francis passed away, wouldn’t he have been the King of France following his father’s demise and also the heir presumptive to the thrones of both Scotland and England after his mother ? I don’t see how a French Catholic King would have been acceptable either to the Scots or the English. So, in a way, you might say that Mary having no children with Francis saved Europe from a major Anglo-French war. If the English Parliament bypassed Mary or her hypothetical French son as Elizabeth's legitimate successors, France would have inevitably gone to war in my humble opinion.


In that hypothetical scenario, it would have been interesting to see which side the Spaniards would have taken. One might think, that being the leader of the Catholic cause in Europe, Spain would have supported a Catholic king on the English throne, but, on the other hand, Spain and France were bitter rivals for hegemony in continental Europe and a French king who was also the king of England and Scotland would not be in Spain's national interest.

 

[Gawin]

Exactly. I never understood that view. What right did he have over any other succeeding monarchs?

He didn't have that right and his will was in fact ignored when (1) an attempt was made to place Lady Jane Grey on the throne when Edward VI died and (2) James of Scotland succeeded Elizabeth. But because both of Henry's daughters Mary and Elizabeth were illegitimate according to English law, they derived their own right to become Queen on Henry's will plus the Third Succession Act. Once she became Queen, Mary passed legislation making herself legitimate but Elizabeth never did. And because Elizabeth refused to name an heir, let alone pass her own legislation on the succession, some looked to Henry's will to figure out who had the best claim legally. Of course, once James became King, Henry's will was moot.

 

[Lucy63]

Elizabeth seemed to mostly agree that Mary was the likely heir, just did not care to make it official and I could see her point. Mary was already proclaiming herself queen, not heir to the throne, which was never going to be seen by a living monarch as anything other than a declaration of war. How Mary even imagined that Elizabeth would be her “beloved sister/cousin” is what baffles me.

 

[Gawin]

Elizabeth seemed to mostly agree that Mary was the likely heir, just did not care to make it official and I could see her point. Mary was already proclaiming herself queen, not heir to the throne, which was never going to be seen by a living monarch as anything other than a declaration of war. How Mary even imagined that Elizabeth would be her “beloved sister/cousin” is what baffles me.

A lot of things Mary did baffle me. Someone called her son James the "wisest fool in Christendom." He came by the "fool" part honestly. ?