King Henry VIII (1491-1547) & Wives

[Russophile]

No doubt Mistress Anne was vilified as a witch when Great Harry wanted to rid himself of her. Her physical appearances, moles, maybe a little lump on the pinkie, suited Harry's goal of ridding himself of a "barren" wife. Still, it would be incredibly interesting, (in my twisted curiosity killed the cat sort of way. . .) to know if it existed.

[magnik]

I like this sites
TudorHistory.org

The Six Wives of Henry VIII


The Six Wives of Henry VIII. Meet the Wives | PBS

[Verde Esmeralda]

I catched an old Richard Burton movie on Henry VIII - but only gets to Anne Boleyn and her 'end'. In that movie, Anne Boleyn is shown from a really different side than in the current 'The Tudors' tv series, or even in Antonia Fraser's book. She seems to be a really young (her looks reminded me of a perverse Laura Ingalls) bratty girl who hated and despised Henry, until she grasped the feeling of power, for which she slowly tends to 'love' the monarch.

[magnik]

I like this forum. Few pages about Tudors
The Tudors

about Anne Boleyn

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Verde Esmeralda

I catched an old Richard Burton movie on Henry VIII - but only gets to Anne Boleyn and her 'end'. In that movie, Anne Boleyn is shown from a really different side than in the current 'The Tudors' tv series, or even in Antonia Fraser's book. She seems to be a really young (her looks reminded me of a perverse Laura Ingalls) bratty girl who hated and despised Henry, until she grasped the feeling of power, for which she slowly tends to 'love' the monarch.

I would imagine that it's rather easy to fall in love with power or the idea of being Queen.

[Elspeth]

Especially when it wasn't clear by then what a dangerous person Henry could be when he didn't get his way.

[Polly]

I think that, in all fairness, there are one or two things about Henry VIII which should not be forgotten.

First, he was an intellectual giant. He had a finely-honed mind; was of a generous artistic disposition; composed some fine music and wrote some passable poetry. He was married, for reasons of state, to Katharine of Aragon, his brother's widow, at age 17 or 18. He never liked her, much, and resented being married off to her. In fact, he resisted it.

He was raised to believe that he was invincible. He fell passionately in love with Anne Boleyn, for which history must be grateful. The result of this union was the incomparable Elizabeth I, whom even the Pope declared to be 'the finest prince(cess) in Chistendom', i.e. she was, by far, the smartest and the best educated and the most politically astute. It was a shock, too. Elizabeth was, astonishingly, a woman!

Anne Boleyn was cruelly murdered by her husband. This is unforgiveable, but succession and primogeniture was the major issue of Henry's day, and although he was astute enough to know that he was slandering her and ensuring her death, social and regal imperatives were more important to him than human life, even his wife's.

Anne Boleyn remains the only wife whom Henry VIII deliberately killed! (Not that that's any sort of an excuse). Katharine Howard, also executed, was found in flagrante delecto, and there was absolutely nothing which Henry could have done to save her life, even if he wanted to do so....and there's some evidence that he actually did want to do so! What she did was, in law, an act of High Treason.

Henry VIII was also a good son of Mother Church. In fact, his title, Defender of the Faith, was conferred on him by the Pope, for his rigorous defence of the Catholic Church against the claims of Martin Luther! Not too many people know that. As our current monarch carries the title, it shouldn't be forgotten how Henry attained it, particularly as the throne of Britain is denied to catholics or those who marry a Catholic.

The Pope was about to grant Henry's wish for an annulment of his marriage to Katharine of Aragon, but he was surrounded by The Holy Roman Emperor's troops, who forced the Pope to deny Henry's wishes.

We are left, then, hundreds of years later, with hundreds of years of spin.

Henry VIII may well have been devoid of some of the finer sensitivities which we, today, think of as normal and usual, but in his own day and age, he was a lodestar of learning and sophistication, the fine arts, and just the usual sort of guy who wants sons to carry to his legacy and genes.

As for Sir Thomas More, my view has always been that he foolishly supported a venal and corrupt Pope, only because he was Pope and couldn't appreciate the real politik of the situation. If the Pople had been absolutely infallible and spiritually and intellectually constant, then I could have understood Sir Thomas much better; indeed, I would have supported him. The Pope at the time was, quite simply, a wuss!

Henry VIII, who died, miserably, of syphilis, was a remarkable monarch. His daughter, who inherited his intellect, was an even better one.

I've gotta tell you, but, that ERI successfully pulled the wool over many people's eyes, too. Recent scholarship and research has proved that she was, indeed, a Mum, and one of her sons was one of the greatest politicians and writers ever produced by England, i.e. the luminous Sir Francis Bacon.

After some years of reading in this area, I'm convinced that ERI was indeed married to Leicester. Another son, I believe was Essex, who tried to usurp Elizabeth and claim the throne as 'his right'. Her dedication to state can be viewed through her most reluctant decision to have him executed due to his treason.

In the early C21, doesn't everything seem so pallid and inconsequential compared to all of this love, lust, passion and power?

[susan alicia]

He was spoiled rotten as a child, all attention to teaching ruling qualities were given to his brother, no one expected henry to become king.

[Russophile]

Polly, where did you find that info. on Elizabeth Rex? That is very interesting!

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Russophile

Polly, where did you find that info. on Elizabeth Rex? That is very interesting!

The answer can be found in the Elizabeth I thread.

[Russophile]

Kwel Beans!!

And Thanks!

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by magnik

I like this sites



The Six Wives of Henry VIII. Meet the Wives | PBS

Oh they redid the mini-series!! I saw it when i was a child! This is FABULOUS!!!

[windsorbrides1]

Catherine Howard

Catherine's sunny personality coupled with her good looks instantly entranced the king, who, at the time of his first encounter with Catherine in 1540, was married to the strait-laced Anne of Cleves. In contrast to Queen Anne, Catherine, according to French ambassador Charles de Marillac, was "a young lady of extraordinary beauty" and of "superlative grace."

Small and slender, auburn-haired Catherine, then 15, most certainly had sexappeal. Contemporaries describe her as kind-hearted, good-natured, but empty-headed and frivolous -- all she cared for was dancing and merry-making.

The Six Wives of Henry VIII. Meet the Wives. Catherine Howard | PBS

[lexi4]

Polly,
Where does this information come from...This is from your last post:

"The Pope was about to grant Henry's wish for an annulment of his marriage to Katharine of Aragon, but he was surrounded by The Holy Roman Emperor's troops, who forced the Pope to deny Henry's wishes."
Pope Clement was boholden to Catherine's nephew Charles the V I know. What I am unaware of is that the Clement was about to grant Henry an annulment.
Henry got the title defender of the faith because of his writings against Luther. But in the end, Henry separated the Church Of England from the RCC.

[auntie]

Does the Duchy of Cleves exsisit today?

[Avalon]

The County of Cleves probably started its existence in the early 11th century. In 1417 the County became a Duchy.
In 1521 Julich, Berg and Mark (neighbouring cities of Counties) were united with Cleves under the rule of Duke John III (the father of Anne of Cleves).

When the last duke of Jülich-Cleves-Berg died issueless in 1609, a war broke out for the succession. In 1614 the duchy was divided between Palatinate-Neuburg and Brandenburg in the Treaty of Xanten. From 1701 Cleves was part of the Kingdom of Prussia. During the Seven Years' War (1757 - 1762), Cleves was occupied by France.

In 1795 the Duchy of Cleves left of the Rhine and Wesel was occupied by France, and became part of the French département of the Roer. The rest of the duchy was occupied between 1803 and 1805, and became part of the département Yssel-Supérieur and the puppet-state Grand Duchy of Berg.
In 1815, after the defeat of Napoleon, the duchy became part of the Prussian Province of Jülich-Cleves-Berg, except for a few cities, which became part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands.

[Russophile]

That was interesting and informative! Thanks!

[Elspeth]

I've moved the discussion of the movie "The Other Boleyn Girls" to the Royal Library:

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...vie-16246.html

[tan_berry]

I would like very much to know what is taught to english children at school about this king that Stefan Zweig considered a man without scruples in his biography of Mary Stuart.

And he did not invent anything, Reformation was in the european Zeitgeist (spirit of times) when he wanted so badly an annulment after 20 years of marriage to Catherine of Aragon.

Either of his three children who reigned left descendants, not at all very successful genes according to the natural laws.

[CaliforniaDreamin]

Originally Posted by Polly

I think that, in all fairness, there are one or two things about Henry VIII which should not be forgotten.

First, he was an intellectual giant. He had a finely-honed mind; was of a generous artistic disposition; composed some fine music and wrote some passable poetry. He was married, for reasons of state, to Katharine of Aragon, his brother's widow, at age 17 or 18. He never liked her, much, and resented being married off to her. In fact, he resisted it.

He was raised to believe that he was invincible. He fell passionately in love with Anne Boleyn, for which history must be grateful. The result of this union was the incomparable Elizabeth I, whom even the Pope declared to be 'the finest prince(cess) in Chistendom', i.e. she was, by far, the smartest and the best educated and the most politically astute. It was a shock, too. Elizabeth was, astonishingly, a woman!

Anne Boleyn was cruelly murdered by her husband. This is unforgiveable, but succession and primogeniture was the major issue of Henry's day, and although he was astute enough to know that he was slandering her and ensuring her death, social and regal imperatives were more important to him than human life, even his wife's.

Anne Boleyn remains the only wife whom Henry VIII deliberately killed! (Not that that's any sort of an excuse). Katharine Howard, also executed, was found in flagrante delecto, and there was absolutely nothing which Henry could have done to save her life, even if he wanted to do so....and there's some evidence that he actually did want to do so! What she did was, in law, an act of High Treason.

Henry VIII was also a good son of Mother Church. In fact, his title, Defender of the Faith, was conferred on him by the Pope, for his rigorous defence of the Catholic Church against the claims of Martin Luther! Not too many people know that. As our current monarch carries the title, it shouldn't be forgotten how Henry attained it, particularly as the throne of Britain is denied to catholics or those who marry a Catholic.

The Pope was about to grant Henry's wish for an annulment of his marriage to Katharine of Aragon, but he was surrounded by The Holy Roman Emperor's troops, who forced the Pope to deny Henry's wishes.

We are left, then, hundreds of years later, with hundreds of years of spin.

Henry VIII may well have been devoid of some of the finer sensitivities which we, today, think of as normal and usual, but in his own day and age, he was a lodestar of learning and sophistication, the fine arts, and just the usual sort of guy who wants sons to carry to his legacy and genes.

As for Sir Thomas More, my view has always been that he foolishly supported a venal and corrupt Pope, only because he was Pope and couldn't appreciate the real politik of the situation. If the Pople had been absolutely infallible and spiritually and intellectually constant, then I could have understood Sir Thomas much better; indeed, I would have supported him. The Pope at the time was, quite simply, a wuss!

Henry VIII, who died, miserably, of syphilis, was a remarkable monarch. His daughter, who inherited his intellect, was an even better one.

I've gotta tell you, but, that ERI successfully pulled the wool over many people's eyes, too. Recent scholarship and research has proved that she was, indeed, a Mum, and one of her sons was one of the greatest politicians and writers ever produced by England, i.e. the luminous Sir Francis Bacon.

After some years of reading in this area, I'm convinced that ERI was indeed married to Leicester. Another son, I believe was Essex, who tried to usurp Elizabeth and claim the throne as 'his right'. Her dedication to state can be viewed through her most reluctant decision to have him executed due to his treason.

In the early C21, doesn't everything seem so pallid and inconsequential compared to all of this love, lust, passion and power?

Thanks for the info Polly, but where do you get the idea that the King actively despised Katherine of Aragon? Quite the contrary, in the early years of their marriage there is evidence that he was very happy with her. He rode in the lists wearing her colors, as her Sir Loyal Heart. He wrote to her father Ferdinand that even if he had been free to marry another, he would choose KATHERINE above all others. He and his gentlemen would disguise themselves as Robin Hood and his Merry Men and burst into her rooms to surprise she and her ladies. The Queen was an excellent rider and would accompany her husband during the hunt.

Obviously his feelings for her soured after her many miscarriages and her failure to provide him with a son, and hardened into downright hatred when she resisted his attempts to get her to say that she had never been his true wife. By then, he had grown wildly infatuated with Anne Boleyn.

If it is true that Katherine had NOT been a virgin when she married the King does anyone believe that this proud conceited monarch would not have had the marriage annulled immediately? He did not. He considered Katherine a virgin when they married as the Queen pointed in in her famous speech at the Blackfriars annullment hearing before the King, his bishops and the Papal nuncio.

Anne Boleyn may have been a fascinating woman, but she was also a very nasty piece of work. She humiliated Princess Mary and forced her to work as a maid to her own child, Elizabeth. She overstepped her boundaries with Henry many times until he finally got tired of her and trumped up charges to get rid of her. Many histories doubt her guilt-I doubt it also-but the bad karma this woman reaped during her years on the rise came back to bite her in the ass in SPADES.

She might have given the English people their great Elizabeth I, but she herself was never loved and respected as Katherine was, never. She was known among Henry's subjects as The Great Whore both during and after his reign.

As for Thomas More, it wasn't necessarily the person of any particular Pope that he was supporting against Henry VIII. There had been and continued to be corrupt and venal Popes , a man of More's brilliance would have understood that. More died because he REFUSED TO ACKNOWLEDGE AND ACCEPT HENRY VIIII OR ANY KING OF ENGLAND AS HEAD OF THE CHURCH OF CHRIST, which he knew was contrary to what Christ Himself decreed in the Gospels. He appointed the Apostle Peter and HIS successors as Head of His Church and it was to Peter, the Apostles and THEIR SUCCESSORS that he gave the responsibility of governing the Church, not the King of Britain or France or any other country.

More was the King's good servant, but God's first. And that is why he was martyred.