King Edward VII (1841-1910) and Queen Alexandra (1844-1925)

[Katrianna]

I understand that Alicky was very shy and uncomfortable around people so it made her appear cold and aloof. I don't know if this is true, but it may have contributed to her being unpopular in Russia unlike her Aunt Alexandra in Britain.

 

[silverstar]

quote
alexandra, princess and queen" wrtten by the renowned author david duff

end quote

I wonder does David Duff mention Alexandra's devoted
companion.. (whose name escapes me.... ) surely their
relationship was more than platonic... through those long
years when her husband was away persuing a career as a serial womanizer !

 

[Roderick]

The relationship of Queen Alexandra and Oliver Montague is discussed earlier in this thread. There is no author or historian who regarded it as more than a platonic relationship. Queen Alexandra put her energies into her children, family and friends when her husband strayed from the marriage rather than pursue an extra-marital relationship herself.

 

[jonnydep]

Welcome back, JonnyDep! I was very disappointed to receive your goodbye because I had no means to contact you. I'm glad you returned and provided us with more information about Queen Alexandra. She was a fascinating woman and warm-hearted as well. Although I also admired Empress Alexandra, Queen Alexandra's niece by marriage, Alicky, or Sunny as she was called when a child, was distant and aloof compared to Queen Alexandra. This was probably caused by the deaths of Alicky's mother and sibling at a young age.

all this talk about alicky has reminded me at one time she considered as a wife to prince albert victor, duke of clarence, the eldest son of edward and alexandra.

prince albert victor was a problem prince. he being lazy, backward and sexually unstable. it is said he visited a homosexual brothel in cleveland street, off tottenham court road !!. it was decided by the family to have him married off as soon as possiable. but who was he to marry ? the queen favored a german bride, whilst alexandra, the princess of wales did not, alexandra did not want be part in setting up a german princess on the british throne !!

the queens choice was her granddaugher, alicky of hesse !!. alexandra only consented to the match, due to the fact, that the hesse family was almost as anti prussian as herself !!. however alicky wanted nothing to do with it (she was in love with the tsarevich nicholas of russia) and declared " only if i am forced to marry him, i will do so, but i feel that we will not be happy !!" and so it came to nothing !!

 

[jonnydep]

The relationship of Queen Alexandra and Oliver Montague is discussed earlier in this thread. There is no author or historian who regarded it as more than a platonic relationship. Queen Alexandra put her energies into her children, family and friends when her husband strayed from the marriage rather than pursue an extra-marital relationship herself.

yes i very much agree....

oliver and alexandra adored and understood each other....thay played the part of knight and fairy princess to perfection !!. there was never a hint of scandal attached to their relationship.

however it is said he did fall in love with alexandra and there an underlying sadness in this unfulfilled love, a sadness hurting him more than it hurt her. he once wrote to his father the earl of sanwich revealing the truth..

"outwardly he was a noisy crowing brute but if everyone what knew his inward feelings are and what he had to go through inwardly they would not evy his existence. i know not of anyone put into the unfortunate positition that i have been and yet, thank god, to have got through the worst without damage to others."

oliver had to put before the world the picture of a rock hard officer of the blues, proof against the emotional weaknesses of men, for ever loyal to the prince of wales !!.

 

[MAfan]

Under this aspect, Prince Albert Victor was very unlucky: he was quite in love with Alicky, but she refused him; then he fell in love with Princess Helene of Orleans, daughter of the Count of Paris, but she was Catholic and both the Pope and her father didn't allow this marriage because she would have converted to the Anglicanism.
Finally Eddy got engaged with Princess Mary of Teck, they agreed to marry, and he died just a couple of weeks before the wedding day.

 

[silverstar]

quote
There is no author or historian who regarded it as more than a platonic relationship.
end quote

but so often these biographers are vetted and only
then are they allowed access to the royal archives
The resulting biog is tame and uncontroversial.
I cant believe that Oliver and Alix were together for
all those years without a physical relationship...
it goes against all the laws of nature...
Alix was extremely attractive ............ and neglected by her hedonistic, womanizing husband.

Maybe their "secret, discreet romance is a film waiting
to be made ? "
( No doubt Victoria was keeping a close watch... and knew
everything that was happening ! )

 

[jonnydep]

Prince Albert Victor fell in love with Princess Helene of Orleans, daughter of the Count of Paris, but she was Catholic and both the Pope and her father didn't allow this marriage because she would have converted to the Anglicanism.

and he had the full backing of his mother alexandra !!

alexandra saw no great handicap on the religious side. her sister had converted to the russian creed and her brother waldemar had married a catholic, marie d'orleans, a first cousin of helene's. being a dane alexandra did not fully understand the british constitution !!.

the queen had already issued a warning to the prince to not get involved with helene, due to her beinig a catholic.....but alexandra hatched a plan to win over the queen, who was a romantic at heart, surely if the queen could see the loving couple together, her heart would go out to them and give her consent to the match !!.

alexandra, eddy (prince albert victor) and helene was house guests at mar lodge, braemar, the family home of the duke and duchess of fife (princess louise, elder daugther of alexandra). the queen was at balmoral castle at the time and at such times was at her most amenable. alexandra now suggested to the couple to pay the queen on an unexpected visit. they glady took up the sugguestion and visited the queen who loved surprises of this sort......moved to tears by eddy's and helene's professing their love for each other, the old queen gave the couple her blessing !!

 

[jonnydep]

Oliver and Alix were together for
all those years without a physical relationship...
it goes against all the laws of nature...
Alix was extremely attractive ............ and neglected by her hedonistic, womanizing husband.

alexandra was not that interested in sex. she was a sexually cold person, (why else do you think that edward went elsewhere for his pleasures....after all he had the sexual appetite of the hanoverians).....so taking this into account, it is very unlikely that alexandra and oliver had a sexual relationship !!

 

[jonnydep]

I think that Princess Alexandra and Elizabeth of Austria were the two outstanding
Royal beauties of the day and they actually
met up ..... (in Vienna I think ) .... when Alix and Bertie were en routeto Egypt..........

yes you are correct, this was the very first time that alexandra had met the empress.....both had two loves in common, clothes and horses !!

upon meeting in the hofburg, the empress (herself dressed all in white and sparkling with diamonds) is said to have to said to alexandra " you and i are the only royals in europe to know how to dress" . a diplomat who saw them together noted that such beauty would never to be seen again !!.
the two women, during the week long visit, spent many hours together appraising the 500 horses in the imperial stables.......

 

[Roderick]

alexandra was not that interested in sex. she was a sexually cold person, (why else do you think that edward went elsewhere for his pleasures....after all he did have the sexual appetite of the hanoverians).....so taking this into account, it is very unlikely that alexandra and oliver had a sexual relationship !!

Most likely Alexandra's deep religious faith and therefore her respect for adhering to her wedding vows would be a greater reason for her not becoming physically involved with Oliver Montague than her being `sexually cold`.

It was also an unlikely single cause for her husband straying. His sexual appetites were legendary. He was never faithful to one woman for very long.

 

[Russophile]

Well this is interesting. But then again, it could be platonic. Minny had Grand Duke Boris at her beck and call and that was platonic. I would imagine that Alexandra had an admirer and it was purely platonic.

 

[MAfan]

Do you mean her nephew, Boris Vladimirovich?

 

[Russophile]

I might be confusing Boris with Alexis Alexandrovich.
Darn those Grand Dukes! There are SOOO many of them!

 

[jonnydep]

Most likely Alexandra's deep religious faith and therefore her respect for adhering to her wedding vows would be a greater reason for her not becoming physically involved with Oliver Montague than her being `sexually cold`.

i am total agreement with what you have said adove, i was not implying that was the only reason as to why alexandra did not embark upon a physical relationship with oliver montague !!

silverstar was discussing the physical aspect of the relationship not the moral and religious side of things !!

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Was there any indication that Oliver Montague was gay? I must confess that I know little of him, but there are several instances of wealthy socialites having gay confidantes and I would suspect that many gay men would have been enamored of Queen Alexandra's fashion sense and beauty. I never thought their relationship approximated a courtly love, such as the type between a knight and married lady which flourished during the time of Eleanor of Acquitaine.

 

[jonnydep]

i must admit the same thought had crossed my mind....but i have not read anything that would suggest that he was gay......besides which it would seem that the sons of the 7th earl of sandwich, was not of the marrrying kind, only one of the four sons married, perhaps it was a just family trait !!

i do believe that oliver had found his love of his life, but unfortunately she was a married lady : Alexandra, Princess of Wales !!

 

[MAfan]

Not only Alexandra was a married lady, but she also was the daughter of the King of Denmark; even if she was not married with Edward VII, surely their love would have been forbidden.

 

[jonnydep]

well that goes without saying....
if alexandra had not married the prince of wales.....she would have married some other royal. therefore she and oliver would have never had met, as oliver was appointed a equerry to the prince of wales, sometime after the marriage !!

 

[MAfan]

About the Prince of Wales...
The italian Wikipedia has a page about a certain Lady Florence Trevelyan; it says that Lady Florence was a cousin of Queen Victoria, and in the 1870s she had an affair with the then Prince of Wales. According to wikipedia, after the scandal of this affair she was banned from the british court, she began to travel and finally married an Italian, Salvatore Cacciola. They settled in Sicily, in the town of Taormina, where they often hosted a lot of royals, included Emperor Wilhelm II of Germany, Emperor Nicholas II of Russia, King Edward VII, Queen Amelia of Portugal and King Vittorio Emanuele III of Italy.
Does anyone know something more about this woman? I'm not sure that the article of Wikipedia about her is reliable, since I've never heard about these Trevelyan cousins of Queen Victoria.

 

[GillW]

Yeah, Mary of Teck really had a thin waist too.

I'm glad I wasn't a royal back then, because I would never have been able to pull that off.

It's unlikely that Mary did either - court photographers (just like fashion photographers now) were very adept at doctoring negatives to show what was wanted, and cleverly painted out shapes to create the silhouette they wanted to portray. If you get to see any original enlargements of this type of photo you can often see the carefully etched lines which were the equivalent to today's "airbrushing".

For a more accurate portrayal, take a look at the more "natural" photos of less formal occasions - walking outside with crowds in the background, for example. But never rely on this type of studio portrait as being "true". Maybe the camera never lies, but the photographers did (and do!)

 

[jonnydep]

About the Prince of Wales...
The italian Wikipedia has a page about a certain Lady Florence Trevelyan; it says that Lady Florence was a cousin of Queen Victoria, and in the 1870s she had an affair with the then Prince of Wales. According to wikipedia, after the scandal of this affair she was banned from the british court, she began to travel and finally married an Italian, Salvatore Cacciola. They settled in Sicily, in the town of Taormina, where they often hosted a lot of royals, included Emperor Wilhelm II of Germany, Emperor Nicholas II of Russia, King Edward VII, Queen Amelia of Portugal and King Vittorio Emanuele III of Italy.
Does anyone know something more about this woman? I'm not sure that the article of Wikipedia about her is reliable, since I've never heard about these Trevelyan cousins of Queen Victoria.

if lady florence was a cousin of queen victoria the relationship must be very distant as i have not found any trevelyan cousins amomgst the legimate or illegimate descendants of king george III , frederick prince of wales nor king george II !!

from what i can gather from various websites (the entries are somewhat muddled) lady florence immedimate ancestors are the barons trevelyan and the wilsons.

according to the websites she was asked to leave england as a result of her affair with the prince of wales. which is odd to say the least, as to my knowledge no other lover / mistress of the prince of wales was asked to do so !!. i have not come across her being named as a lover / mistress of the prince of wales before now.

i have yet to find any entry for her in burkes peerage, however if the barons trevelyan no longer extant, i will have to look to earlier editions to locate her.

am sorry i cant be more of a help to you !!

PS..... on one of the websites theres a modern day photograph of her bust...and yes she looks very much alike to queen victoria !! also on another it is stated that during her youth she spent a great deal of her time at balmoral castle, where she and queen victoria often discussed thier shared interests of birds and botany !!. on yet another it states that her mother/ perhaps her grandmother lady mary wilson (entry again somewhat muddled) was a first cousin of the queen !!

 

[jonnydep]

It's unlikely that Mary did either - court photographers (just like fashion photographers now) were very adept at doctoring negatives to show what was wanted, and cleverly painted out shapes to create the silhouette they wanted to portray. If you get to see any original enlargements of this type of photo you can often see the carefully etched lines which were the equivalent to today's "airbrushing".

For a more accurate portrayal, take a look at the more "natural" photos of less formal occasions - walking outside with crowds in the background, for example. But never rely on this type of studio portrait as being "true". Maybe the camera never lies, but the photographers did (and do!)

yes i agree with you.
although it is slightly off topic, i will keep my post short....
it has been recently revealed that many of the classic photographs of the late queen elizabeth the queen mother taken by cecil beaton in the gardens of buckingham palace was touched up or airbrushed (by himself) to make it to appear she was much slimmer !!

 

[GillW]

yes i agree with you.
although it is slightly off topic, i will keep my post short....
it has been recently revealed that many of the classic photographs of the late queen elizabeth the queen mother taken by cecil beaton in the gardens of buckingham palace was often touched up or airbrushed to make it to appear she was much slimmer !!

Indeed - the famous one of her seated in a flimsy pale gown - if you look at it closely her bosom ends at the edge of the shoulder frill in a very odd line!! If you follow my link, look closely along the waistline and you'll see tiny faint lines where a width of "body" has been removed and stops abruptly at the edge of the frill...
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r181/gillweb/QMEdit.jpg

 

[Warren]

It's one of those modern-day conceits that the doctoring of images of the fashionable and important is a relatively recent occurrence. The fact is that likenesses have been doctored for reasons of politics and vanity for more than a couple of thousand years. Sculptures, paintings and photographs have all been subject to their own methods of image enhancement. These days we have software programs to do the job.

 

[jonnydep]

from what i can gather from various websites (the entries are somewhat muddled) lady florence immedimate ancestors are the barons trevelyan and the wilsons.

i have yet to find any entry for her in burkes peerage, however if the barons trevelyan no longer extant, i will have to look to earlier editions to locate her.

i have also found no entry for the barons trevelyan, in the complete peerage of england, scotland, ireland, great britain and the united kingdom, which list every peerage (extant, extinct or dormant ) which has ever been created !!. (well except one and that barony was created in 1968 !!)

also i cant help thinking that if lady florence was banished from court and was asked leave england due to some great scandal (which to my own knowledge, has never been mentioned in any biography of king edward VII ), it was not prudent of her to play host to him, at the risk of the scandal coming to the fore again !!

IMO... i very much feel that this woman may be a imposter and had invented her pedigree and the story, if indeed this had originated from herself !!

 

[MAfan]

I agree with you, Jonnydep, this is one possibility they I have also thought; the second one, is that the biography on Wikipedia is the great fantasy work of some idle silly man or woman.

 

[jonnydep]

well her biography is repeated through out many other websites (such as tourism for the town of taormina etc) .... so i dont think it is a work of some idler or prankster. it would be interesting to get to the bottom of the matter though....

 

[Lady Meg]

Queen Consort Alexandra vs Queen Victoria?

After reading this article in Newsweek..............

Baird: Victoria, Queen and Angry Working Mother - Julia Baird - Newsweek.com

I remembered that I read this --

She also enjoyed hunting, to the dismay of Queen Victoria, who asked her to stop, without success. Even after the birth of her first child, she continued to behave much as before, which led to some friction between the Queen and the young couple, exacerbated by Alexandra's loathing of Germans and the Queen's partiality towards them. All of Alexandra's children were apparently born prematurely; she did not want Queen Victoria to be present at their births, so she deliberately misled the Queen as to her probable delivery dates.

What exactly was the problem? Why did she deliberately mislead Queen Victoria about her delivery dates?

 

[Russophile]

It's one of those modern-day conceits that the doctoring of images of the fashionable and important is a relatively recent occurrence. The fact is that likenesses have been doctored for reasons of politics and vanity for more than a couple of thousand years. Sculptures, paintings and photographs have all been subject to their own methods of image enhancement. These days we have software programs to do the job.

Alas! Poor Holbein, we know it well!