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  #461  
Old 09-10-2016, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
You said though, Denville, that in general, women waited until a couple or more sons were born before they had affairs. Winston was the older of two sons; there were no other siblings before Jack. I'm not saying that another man fathered Winston, just his brother Jack.

Also Alice became the POW's acknowledged mistress in 1898. Sonia Keppel (Alice's second child) was born in 1900. I don't think Bertie was the father, but it's within the bounds of possibility.

And if Alice's male confidants/lovers were writing her discreet little cheques because George Keppel couldn't keep up the family's standard of living, then that is 'taking money from other men', however you slice it, IMO.
As I understand it the servant making all this claim said that Alice was "Having sex with other men for money"... which IMO is not proven.
And again we dont know about Winston's brother., more gossip I suspect. Jenny Churchill was the wife of a younger son, so her boys weren't that likely to inherit the family title.. and Randolph was a pretty dreadful husband.. Enough to drive any woman to wild behaviour.
Even so, in the absence of any strong evidence.. ie Jack being born when Randolph had been away at sea for a year, i'd assume that he was Rand's son.
It is possible that Bertie was Sona's father, but it is just as possible -probalby more so -that she was her legal father's child.. I think that since teh days of Royal princes cheerfully acknowledging their bastard children was now over, Bertie problaby expected his mistresses to take precautions, because he didn't want children whose existence might cause trouble for him...
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  #462  
Old 09-10-2016, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Queen Claude View Post
I . Maybe Alice was a sensible woman because she needed money and knew that she had to be discreet in order to keep in good standing with the men she wanted to support her. Conventional? I think that is debatable. I don't think that all royal and aristocratic Edwardians were engaged in relationships outside their marriage as a matter of course, so I don't know if I would call her conventional.
Im sure the story of "Curstsy and jump into bed" is about as likely as Camillas allegedly saying to Charles," My grandma and your great grandpa were lovers, how about it."
Yes Alice was conventional by and large. Not all upper class women had affairs, but many did, and there were conventions for doing it and Alice stuck to them for the most part. One thing was being very discreet.. and apart from a bit of hysteria when Bertie was dying, she seems to have been pretty discreet and various people used her as a conduit to gain access to Bertie.. and she was accepted as his dinner partner, in society because she kept him amused,..
If she had been a wild or foolish or unconventional woman, she would nto have amused him and she might have had an affair iwth him, but it woudl not have lasted so long. If she'd been someone who outraged the various conventions, like Daisy Warwick turning socialist, She would not have been popular in society as she was.. Immorality was meant to be discreet and well bred in how it was done.
There is a story that the Duke of Devonshire (known as Harty Tarty) was addressed as Harty Tarty by his mistress in public one day, she wasn't tinking..and called him something like Harty Tarty Darling..
and that was breaking one of the rules, which was that everyone knew of the affair, including the servants, but in public the couple were formal with each other.

Another rule was that you didn't land your husband with someone else's child, at least for the first pregnancy and preferably you produced a few children before allowing for the possiblity of a cuckoo in the nest. But Alice like Jenny Churchill was married to a younger son...so her children were not really in line for a title.
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  #463  
Old 09-10-2016, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
George was with his parents King Edward and Queen Alexandra at Cowes Week in 1902. Queen Mary, who was a bad sailor, was not present, but wrote to her husband enquiring about the atmosphere on board the royal yacht.

George replied that peace reigned but "Alas Mrs K arrives tomorrow and stops here in a yacht. I am afraid that peace and quiet will not remain.'
May, his wife, sympathised and wrote back 'What a pity Mrs G K is again to the fore! How annoyed Mama (Queen Alexandra) will be!'
'
Is this source reliable? Are they adding to it to sell a story?

I have read multiple versions of this quote.

Some state the letter only states "K". Others have placed the date of the letter as 1895.

Alice Keppel was not at Cowes in 1902.

Could the "K' refer to Kaiser Wilhelm who regularly went to Cowes and was disliked by both Edward & Alexandra?

Cowes is where people in yachts watched other yachts race.

Kaiser would compete against Edward with Edward always coming out on the losing end.
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  #464  
Old 09-10-2016, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Queen Camilla View Post
Alice Keppel was one of the nicest people. She was kind hearted and sweet.

Alice Keppel was not Edward's mistress. She was not the mistress of any man.
She most certainly was Edward's mistress. His last mistress and along with Lily Langtry the best known.

Quote:
Alice Keppel would never have been allowed to step foot into Sandringham if she had been Edward's mistress or anyone's mistress.
Not true.

The mistresses were as likely to be invited as were the wives - who were often the mistresses of other men within the set.

My great-great-grandfather visited Sandringham a number of times with his different mistresses. He wasn't a lover of Alice's as he had different married women as his mistresses at the time (note 'mistresses' at the time).

Quote:
It was Alexandra who invited Alice to Sandringham to celebrate Alexandra's birthday and everyone who is not out to trash Alice agrees that Alice Keppel would never been allow into Sandringham had she been Edward's mistress.
Alexandra befriended a number of Edward's mistresses.

She even did charity work with Lily Langtry whose company Alexandra enjoyed.

When it came to who to invite to Sandringham she always invited Edward's current mistress as otherwise there was a good chance that Edward himself wouldn't have been there.

Quote:
Edward would not have introduced his mistress to his family, much less invited her to the family home.
Rubbish. He often had the mistress and her husband at the family home, for dinner and to stay.

It was one of the ways that people actually spent time with their mistresses - was being invited to each others' homes and having the rooming even arranged so that the mistress was roomed near the lover's while his wife's room was near her lovers.

Of course Alexandra never took a lover as she understood the treason laws but with the exception of Daisy Warwick she was friendly with most of them. She never liked Daisy but still hosted her in her home at times.

Quote:
There are photographs of Alice at Sandringham with the BRF including Alexandra. One is from 1899, when Alice was pregnant with Sonia.
This is one of the reasons why there are questions about Sonia's paternity - that she was at Sandringham while pregnant with her daughter.

There is a lot of documentation from a range of other families who note the rooming that was needed to host Edward with Alice nearby because they were lovers.

I know when Edward and Alexandra went to by great-grandfather's wedding (along with George and May) one of the questions that was asked was what excuse there was to invite the Keppel's who didn't know either my great-grandmother or great-grandfather. They couldn't come up with one and Edward left the day after the wedding while Alexandra stayed for the next three days until after the couple left on their wedding tour. They married in 1899.

Saying that Alice was no one's mistress is simply refusing the overwhelming evidence - including her own words and her own family's history of that time in her life.
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  #465  
Old 09-10-2016, 10:15 PM
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Oh heavens of course she was his mistress. so was Lillie Langtry and Lady Warwick..and a number of other society women. Alexandra didn't like her much, she liked Lillie L, didn't like Daisy Warwick, in short, she tolerated the mistresses, and liked some better than others. But she would not make public scenes about it..
And yes that was a large part of house parties, the arrangement of bedrooms so that the various lovers in the group could meet up...
Same with the ritual of afternoon tea and the tea gown....
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  #466  
Old 09-10-2016, 10:23 PM
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We are going to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
She most certainly was Edward's mistress. His last mistress and along with Lily Langtry the best known.
His last mistress was Daisy who he was still with until 1901 or 1902.

Quote:
Alexandra befriended a number of Edward's mistresses.
Edward did not have as many as people claim. This is just lies and gossip.

Quote:
When it came to who to invite to Sandringham she always invited Edward's current mistress as otherwise there was a good chance that Edward himself wouldn't have been there.
There is no evidence that Alexandra invited any of Edward's mistresses to Sandringham.
None were invited to celebrate Alexandra's birthday.

Quote:
Of course Alexandra never took a lover as she understood the treason laws but with the exception of Daisy Warwick she was friendly with most of them. She never liked Daisy but still hosted her in her home at times.
That is not what Edward believed. He accused her of infidelity

Quote:
This is one of the reasons why there are questions about Sonia's paternity - that she was at Sandringham while pregnant with her daughter.
She was invited by the Queen Alexandra to celebrate Alexandra's birthday.
Sonia is pure Keppel. She resembles her Keppel side. She looks like her Keppel cousins and aunts.
(Unless Edward VII was a Keppel. Queen Victoria and Queen Alexandra did adore Henry Keppel.)
And there is a picture of Queen Alexandra with Henry Keppel arm & arm while holding hands.

Quote:
There is a lot of documentation from a range of other families who note the rooming that was needed to host Edward with Alice nearby because they were lovers.
All gossip.

Quote:
I know when Edward and Alexandra went to by great-grandfather's wedding (along with George and May) one of the questions that was asked was what excuse there was to invite the Keppel's who didn't know either my great-grandmother or great-grandfather. They couldn't come up with one and Edward left the day after the wedding while Alexandra stayed for the next three days until after the couple left on their wedding tour. They married in 1899.
Edward was easily bored and Alice was known for her quick wit.

Which Keppels? Henry, Colin and Mary, Derek and Bridget, Arnold and Gertrude, George and Alice.
Did Edward and George want the entire Keppel clan at your family wedding?
Derek Keppel was the best friend of George V and Bridget was Queen Mary's friend.

Quote:
Saying that Alice was no one's mistress is simply refusing the overwhelming evidence - including her own words and her own family's history of that time in her life.
What evidence?
What words?
What family's history?

I did extensive research for years before coming to this conclusion.
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  #467  
Old 09-10-2016, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Queen Camilla View Post
Is this source reliable? Are they adding to it to sell a story?

I have read multiple versions of this quote.

Some state the letter only states "K". Others have placed the date of the letter as 1895.

Alice Keppel was not at Cowes in 1902.

Could the "K' refer to Kaiser Wilhelm who regularly went to Cowes and was disliked by both Edward & Alexandra?

Cowes is where people in yachts watched other yachts race.

Kaiser would compete against Edward with Edward always coming out on the losing end.
I know what Cowes Week is, and Queen Mary would scarcely refer to the Kaiser as 'Mrs G K'.

That particular exchange of correspondence between the Yorks I have read many times. However, last night I took it from Raymond Lamont Brown's 'Alice Keppel and Agnes Keyser: Edward VII's Last Loves.' It is packed with detail about Alice's life and fully footnoted.

The letters from which I quoted are in the Royal Archives CC/7/32; CC/3/29; CC/7/68.

Are we to take your assertion that 'Alice wasn't at Cowes in 1902' at face value without any back-up, correspondence etc?

My other quote was from Alice of Athlone's autobiography, 'For my Grandchildren' Evans 1966.

Alice was known as La Favorita throughout Society, and Count Mensdorff the Austro-Hungarian diplomat called her that, as did countless others. He is quoted in Lamont Brown's book, which goes into great detail (footnoted) with regard to Alice's relationship with King Edward, Alice's social life, and her finances.

Alice may have come from a wealthy family but not, relatively speaking, her particular branch, and she became wealthy through the advice of the King's great friend Sir Ernest Cassel and the generosity of the King and others. The Keppels had a very restricted income at the beginning of their married life. Alice was given as a dowry of £15,000 in shares and George Keppel (who never had any money all his life) had £5,000, and that was it.
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  #468  
Old 09-10-2016, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
I know what Cowes Week is, and Queen Mary would scarcely refer to the Kaiser as 'Mrs G K'.

That particular exchange of correspondence between the Yorks I have read many times. However, last night I took it from Raymond Lamont Brown's 'Alice Keppel and Agnes Keyser: Edward VII's Last Loves.' It is packed with detail about Alice's life and fully footnoted.

The letters from which I quoted are in the Royal Archives CC/7/32; CC/3/29; CC/7/68.

Are we to take your assertion that 'Alice wasn't at Cowes in 1902' at face value without any back-up, correspondence etc?
No you do not need to take my word.

1902 was the Coronation and Edward was still recuperating when he and Alexandra went to Cowes.

There are descriptions of who Edward met at Cowes in the newspapers and magazines of the day.. I could not remember the publication to link to my post. There are several but the one I referring to describes Edward being seen on the yacht exercising and it lists who visited the yacht.

The reason I do not believe this is about Alice (beside her not being at Cowes) is that others have quoted the Royal Archives and have stated the letter only states "K".

I read Brown's book years ago and found several errors about Alice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Alice may have come from a wealthy family but not, relatively speaking, her particular branch, and she became wealthy through the advice of the King's great friend Sir Ernest Cassel and the generosity of the King and others. The Keppels had a very restricted income at the beginning of their married life. Alice was given as a dowry of £15,000 in shares and George Keppel (who never had any money all his life) had £5,000, and that was it.
In 1891, this is a considerable sum. This does not include Alice's yearly trust fund nor George's income from his investments and various jobs. When Alice needed money she went to her brother. Alice's mother was also rich. I sure Alice could have walked the few yards to her mother's house.

The lease on 30 Portman's Square was £160 a year.
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  #469  
Old 09-10-2016, 11:39 PM
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Does any of it really matter? It's all so long ago! Bertie and Alix clearly understood each other and to hand out morality well over 100 years later to the players involved seems a bit ridiculous. If Alice brought him comfort, whenever, wherever, whatever - good for her. I can't see that it makes any difference when she met him. Or when their relationship started. Surely we are advanced enough nowadays to accept that Alice was good for him? A calming influence? Someone he clearly loved and who loved him?
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  #470  
Old 09-11-2016, 12:23 AM
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With regard to the Royal correspondence from Cowes, surely it's cherry picking to state what you obviously believe, Queen Camilla, that the Princess of Wales refers to 'K' not 'Mrs GK'. I've read many books and never heard that Mary wrote 'K'. It always refers to Mrs Keppel whenever I've read it in various biographies, memoirs etc. Can you point me to any biographies etc where it is 'K' only?

The lists of those who visited the King on his yacht would be provided to the social pages of magazines like the 'Illustrated London News' by the visitors themselves, added to by contacts at Court. Edward might not necessarily have wanted Alice to visit him on the yacht if Alexandra was irritated by her.

The Princess of Wales's reference is clearly aimed at the Queen finding out that Alice was nearby, as Alice so very often was throughout the year as Edward moved around, and there being a row between the royal couple as a consequence of it.

And, if it was the Kaiser being referred to, why would Mary have to be discreet in a letter to her husband? Why would she refer to the Kaiser only by the initial K? He was a relative. The obvious way to refer to him in family letters would surely be 'Willie' or 'William' or 'Wilhelm', or even 'W', not by the initial of his title as German monarch.

I was referring to the rather straitened financial circumstances of the beginning of the Keppel marriage in the above post. I know that Alice became wealthier later through the generosity of others, and advice from Cassel etc. Yes, £15,000 was a large sum of money in the 1890s but not when it is a dowry, has to last for years and you wish to take part in London Society, the Season, etc, as both the Keppels obviously did. And Alice was the youngest of a very large family.

Queen Alexandra being friendly to various Keppels is neither here nor there. They were inlaws of Alice's and don't point in any way to Alexandra's relationship with Mrs Alice Keppel.

Alice was regarded by everyone in Society, including courtiers, as being King Edward's mistress/confidante, she was referred to as La Favorita by dozens of people and all books on Edward VII in which she appears refer to her as being so.

Courtiers including Lord Esher, Edward's great friend, knew this woman, took her to be King Edward's lover, and surely their opinion and knowledge is worth more than what people, including us, think in the 21st century, more than a hundred years later.
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  #471  
Old 09-11-2016, 03:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
With regard to the Royal correspondence from Cowes, surely it's cherry picking to state what you obviously believe, Queen Camilla, that the Duchess of York refers to 'K' not 'Mrs GK'. I've read many books and never heard that Mary wrote 'K'. It always refers to Mrs Keppel whenever I've read it in various biographies, memoirs etc. Can you point me to any biographies etc where it is 'K' only?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
And, if it was the Kaiser being referred to, why would Mary have to be discreet in a letter to her husband? Why would she refer to the Kaiser only by the initial K? He was a relative. The obvious way to refer to him in family letters would surely be 'Willie' or 'William' or 'Wilhelm', or even 'W', not by the initial of his title as German monarch.
A photograph or a facsimile of the letter will help clear things so there is no disagreement.

The 1902 date just does not add up when trying to connect it to Alice.

If Alice arrived by yacht at Cowes, it would have been listed in the papers and the names of her host or hostess.

The Kaiser was there. He competed and he visited Edward on yacht. This was reported in the newspapers.on July 22 and July 23 that the Kaiser will make a brief private visit to Edward

Quote:
KAISER TO VISIT KING EDWARD. KAISER TO VISIT KING EDWARD. LONDON, July 22.-A dispatch received hare from Cowes says it has been arranged that Emperor William shall visit King Edward before the latter returns to London.
In 1902, George & Mary were the Prince and Princess of Wales.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Alice was regarded by everyone in Society, including courtiers, as being King Edward's mistress/confidante, she was referred to as La Favorita by dozens of people and all books on Edward VII in which she appears refer to her as being so.
She was his confidante but not his mistress.

No not everyone in society thought she was Edward's mistress only those that were ignorant of the facts and did not know Alice or Edward personally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Courtiers including Lord Esher, Edward's great friend, knew this woman, took her to be King Edward's lover, and surely their opinion and knowledge is worth more than what people, including us, think in the 21st century, more than a hundred years later.
The opinion of the people who knew Alice and Edward should also count.

Randall Davidson the Archbishop of Canterbury told the Earl of Crawford and Balcarres

The King's affair with Alice Keppel had been platonic. His Majesty indicated this by "always placing her beside the Archbishop at table; something he would never have done if she had, as generally supposed been his mistress. It would have been an insult to the Church and utterly unlike him.' This subtlety of approach, said the Archbishop, 'was very characteristic of the King.'
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  #472  
Old 09-11-2016, 03:26 AM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
Does any of it really matter? It's all so long ago! Bertie and Alix clearly understood each other and to hand out morality well over 100 years later to the players involved seems a bit ridiculous. If Alice brought him comfort, whenever, wherever, whatever - good for her. I can't see that it makes any difference when she met him. Or when their relationship started. Surely we are advanced enough nowadays to accept that Alice was good for him? A calming influence? Someone he clearly loved and who loved him?
well it does not matter in that it happened. It happened, Edward had many mistresses (and less respectable liaisions with to put it bluntly tarts) thruoghtout his married life. Alexandra had to put up with it, because that's what royal wives had to do. Unlike upper class wives they could not take a lover in retailiation. She tolerated the women, and some of them she did like and was friendly with. Others she just tolerated for her husbands sake and because she had to, and at times when she was fed up with his having a particular affair, or flings, she would go off to Denmark and stay for months.
I don't know why anyone would try to say that Ed DIDNT have numerous liaisons because quite simply he did.
Just like Louis XV would simply take any woman he fancied more or less and had a mini bordello where his girls were procured for him...
Edward wasn't on that scale but he had plenty of flings and more serious affairs.
What is the point of trying to whitewash this?
It's well known that ALix was not able to keep up with her husband, because of her deafness and she preferred to stay home..and Ed was easily bored and wanted constant amusement and chat from his ladyfriends.
So he sought sexual and non sexual fun and amusement form a lot of other women.
Lots of upper class men did this...(nad women). Couples weren't expected to spend their time together, they were expected to be loyal and as discreet as possible if they sought amusement elsewhere.. and to appear together occasionally.
Its like various people I have seen on other forums who insist that Diana didn't have any affairs iwht married men, because the poster clearly thinks that this is a bad thing, and liking Diana a lot wants to clear her of this charge.
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  #473  
Old 09-11-2016, 03:36 AM
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Based on what I've read, Edward and Alexandra were often locked in a number of low level spats with one another, often involving Alexandra deliberately overdoing the goofy-womanchild act, trolling him over small things and disappearing off to see her siblings for lengthy stretches - she could not help being dull and clingy. Edward's sexual behaviour was more a way of expressing anger against his mother and sisters who where the more dominant personalities in the Familiy after Albert died. Alex was often the butt of this resentment as she appealed to Victoria and Edwards sisters (esp Vicky) more than to Edward himself - he tended to like masculine looking women with strong, entertaining personalities (incidentally one of the reasons he liked his daughter in law queen Mary so much). Alex on the other hand was very overtly girly, became more isolated after her deafness kicked in and was very focused on her children even after they were too old for such behaviour. Mismatched personalites and no chemistry.
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  #474  
Old 09-11-2016, 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Queen Camilla View Post
We are going to disagree.



His last mistress was Daisy who he was still with until 1901 or 1902.
His last mistress was Alice. He had left Daisy by the late 1890s.

Quote:
Edward did not have as many as people claim. This is just lies and gossip.
He had quite a number - with the exception of the first couple of years of his marriage those who invited him to stay had to invite his special female friend and ensure they could be intimate with each other without any problems. Alix was an optional extra. The lady friend wasn't.

Quote:
There is no evidence that Alexandra invited any of Edward's mistresses to Sandringham.
I have my great-great-grandfather's diaries of who was at Sandringham at the same time he was there including Daisy Warwick when she was Edward's mistress along with Alice.

Quote:
None were invited to celebrate Alexandra's birthday.
I never claimed she did.

Quote:
That is not what Edward believed. He accused her of infidelity.
She was advised to not have intimate relations with any man by her mid-20s unless she wanted to die.

Edward never accused her of infidelity. He knew she had a close friendship with a few men but never that she went to bed with any of them knowing that a pregnancy could endanger her life.

Quote:
She was invited by the Queen Alexandra to celebrate birthday.
At Edward's insistence. He insisted his current mistress was invited to many events and Alix grinned and bore it - otherwise she would have seen even less of her husband than she did.

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Sonia is pure Keppel. She resembles her Keppel side. She looks like her Keppel cousins and aunts.
Doesn't prove George was her father though - given Alice's proclivities (and there were many men.

Quote:
(Unless Edward VII was a Keppel. Queen Victoria and Queen Alexandra did adore Henry Keppel.)
Given the number of illegitimate children throughout history that isn't actual proof.

Quote:
And there is a picture of Queen Alexandra with Henry Keppel arm & arm while holding hands.
Your point I assume was that Alix was having an affair with Henry.

Quote:
All gossip.
Not gossip but known facts by those who moved in the right circles - such as my great-great-grandparents.

Quote:
Edward was easily bored and Alice was known for her quick wit.
She was known for way more than her quick wit. A large percentage of his circle stayed for the post-nuptial activities but he left to go to Alice - not anyone else but just Alice.

Quote:
Which Keppels? Henry, Colin and Mary, Derek and Bridget, Arnold and Gertrude, George and Alice.
George and Alice - obviously.

They wanted Edward to stay for longer and he would only do so if Alice was there and as they couldn't justify an invitation for her then he was always going to leave early.

Quote:
Did Edward and George want the entire Keppel clan at your family wedding
They didn't have anything to say about the guest list other than Edward wanting Alice to attend.

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Derek Keppel was the best friend of George V and Bridget was Queen Mary's friend
Good for them

Quote:
What evidence?
The diaries of many members of the aristocracy. The sleeping arrangements at many house parties. The stories from the staff in many homes from the day.

Quote:
What words?
Alice's own words.

Quote:
What family's history?
The Keppels - who have told the story for generations to their descendants

Quote:
I did extensive research for years before coming to this conclusion.
So did I using the primary evidence of the correspondence about my great-great-grandparents' wedding, the sleeping plans that my grandmother found amongst her mother's papers from when they hosted Edward and Alice (no Alix) and her mother's notes on those visits, the letters by great-grandfather received from his father when Edward died etc etc.

My evidence comes first hand from family who witnessed the relationship and knew what was happening.

Other aristocratic families would have similar records within their own papers.
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  #475  
Old 09-11-2016, 04:05 AM
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Oh good lord. Edward slept around because he wanted to. Most men would like to, and he had the opportunity to have loads of women. His wealth and social position and lack of a serious job meant that he had plenty of time and energy and money to spend on pursuit of pleasure.
I don't think it had antying to do with "anger against women"...or that his women were "masculine looking".
He and Alix were fond of each other, but they had married very young and had done so because they were both royal and had to get married.. As a newspaper said at the time there were only about 7 women at that juncture that Ed could marry, so he was lucky that he got one who was nice and charming and very lovely and who appealed to him.. They didn't have much in common esp as Alix got deaf and retired to her home life and over devoted herself to her children. But he loved her.. even if she bored him..
He was fooling around well before she got deaf.. -
I think that she was rather possessive, because that was her nature, she clung to the children.. and she was rather resentful at times of the fact that Edward wanted more amusmetn than she could give him and that he was so VERY unfaithful..
So they had rows and bad times like the best of couples do, and since she could not (and wouldn't want to.. as I don't think she was that sexy) have an affair herself, she hit back, by being rather tiresome (which only drove Edward to spend more time away) and then she would take off for Denmark, to spent more time with her own family (who also bored Edward).. I think that this was a bit of a punishment because it sometimes caused gossip in the papers and he might get a ticking off from his mother for upsetting his wife.
Their marriage was far from perfect, but it was problaby better than a lot of marriages...
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  #476  
Old 09-11-2016, 04:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Camilla View Post
No you do not need to take my word.

I . This does not include Alice's yearly trust fund nor George's income from his investments and various jobs. When Alice needed money she went to her brother. Alice's mother was also rich. I sure Alice could have walked the few yards to her mother's house.

The lease on 30 Portman's Square was £160 a year.
I'm sure that whatever money Alice had, the interest on £15k and extra from "George's jobs" would not keep her suitalbly in the society she lived in, where she was mixing with the POW/King..and with 2 daughters to keep and dower.
She went to see Ed on his deathbed, and Alix wasn't too happy with it. Why would she be jealous if Alice was only his friend?
It happened. She was no different to a lot of society women that she used her charms, both social and sexual to get things, for herself and her husband and family. It does not mean she was sleeping with every rich man she met, but she probably did sleep with some, and with others it was a flirty relationship or one where she did social favours like getting them into higher social circles..
Getting a job or investment advice for her husband was one of the things that many society wives did, and they used whatever charms and gifts nature had given them to do this...
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  #477  
Old 09-11-2016, 07:24 PM
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69 years ago today Alice Keppel died.
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  #478  
Old 09-11-2016, 08:25 PM
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His last mistress was Daisy. He was still seeing her even after she outed him as impotent.
She is listed in his diaries.

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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
I have my great-great-grandfather's diaries of who was at Sandringham at the same time he was there including Daisy Warwick when she was Edward's mistress along with Alice. So did I using the primary evidence of the correspondence about my great-great-grandparents' wedding, the sleeping plans that my grandmother found amongst her mother's papers from when they hosted Edward and Alice (no Alix) and her mother's notes on those visits, the letters by great-grandfather received from his father when Edward died etc etc.

My evidence comes first hand from family who witnessed the relationship and knew what was happening.
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
They wanted Edward to stay for longer and he would only do so if Alice was there and as they couldn't justify an invitation for her then he was always going to leave early.
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
They didn't have anything to say about the guest list other than Edward wanting Alice to attend.
Maybe you can share especially the dates.

Several of Edward's staff and friends wrote books and kept journals that they publish during Edward's lifetime or shortly thereafter. I have read these so it would be interesting to see what other wrote about Edward that was contemporary.

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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
She was advised to not have intimate relations with any man by her mid-20s unless she wanted to die.

Edward never accused her of infidelity. He knew she had a close friendship with a few men but never that she went to bed with any of them knowing that a pregnancy could endanger her life.
In 1871 while suffering from typhoid fever he accused her of infidelity. Some dismissed it as the 'fever talking'.

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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
The diaries of many members of the aristocracy. The sleeping arrangements at many house parties. The stories from the staff in many homes from the day. Doesn't prove George was her father though - given Alice's proclivities (and there were many men.
Not gossip but known facts by those who moved in the right circles - such as my great-great-grandparents. She was known for way more than her quick wit.
This is distasteful and no proof of this. This is sheer gossip and lies about a woman they did not personally know. The people who actually knew Alice also wrote books and this is far from the description of the real Alice. It is repugnant to suggest that Alice had many men or that her daughter was not the child of her husband. This contradicts all the information about Alice that her friends and family knew.

George Keppel wanted a son. Alice actually minded what people thought of her. She was a conventional woman.

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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Alice's own words.
The Keppels - who have told the story for generations to their descendants.
Alice Keppel never spoke so what were her words and to whom? Which Keppel and their descendants? This sound more like the DM type of stories.

I have extensive knowledge of the Keppel family tree so names would be helpful, especially since Alice and George saw more of her family than his.
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  #479  
Old 09-12-2016, 12:18 AM
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Yes in his fever he "accused her" of infidelity. Probably the fever talking.
I can't understand that anyone seiously would think that Alix, a very religious woman who had had 6 babies in about 6 years, had had rheumatic fever during one pregnancy and been very ill (and Bertie was then out whooping it up with other women)...who problaby was very relieved to finish with sex after all that, (I don't know of any definite evidence that she was told not to have more children because of health reasons),.would be unfaithful?

She is well known to have had a romantic friendship with Oliver Montagu, and Bertie was fine with that; it was not uncommon for women who didn't want a sex life/coudlnt' have affairs because of various reasons, to have a male companion who was a bit in love and kept them company esp if they had a neglectful husband.

I don't see why you would interpret Bertie's fever talk as "accusing Alix of adultery," which was IMO quite preposterous.. but refuse to accept that Bertie had plenty of affairs.
It is very likely that In his fever Bertie was re-running rows that he had had with Alix over HIS infidelties and in his muddle, transferring the guilt to her..He got upset when he saw her, when he was delerious, problaby because of his own guilty feelings about her..

I think that Alix problaby was glad to finish with a sex life when she had produced 6 children, lost her last son, John, at one day old and been very ill at times...
She may have been told that it was not advisable to have more, I don't know if that was true.. but if so, it seems to me that that would fit in with Bertie leaving her alone even more and taking to other women, to "official" affairs with upper class women.. and Alix being rather jealous and hurt, but consoling herself with her children and her romantic friendship...
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  #480  
Old 09-12-2016, 01:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
I know nothing about this book, which is probably extremely unreliable.
George replied that peace reigned but "Alas Mrs K arrives tomorrow and stops here in a yacht. I am afraid that peace and quiet will not remain.'
May, his wife, sympathised and wrote back 'What a pity Mrs G K is again to the fore! How annoyed Mama (Queen Alexandra) will be!'

.'
I don't think that Alexandra was all that happy with the Keppel affair. Alice was seen as Bertie's "partner". people including politicans used her to gain access to him in his private life...
she went on hols with him and Alexandra felt that this was intruding on her status as his wife. Lillie L was one of his earlier official mistresses and ALexandra seems to have liked her better, perhaps because Lillie wasn't as intrusive or because being one of the first of his "lady mistresses" she wasn't as settled in the positon as a later one like Alice K became. Or perhaps she just liked Lillie better, she was apparently very charming.
But I have read this about George V writing to May and saying that "peace and quiet would not continue" when Alice K turned up and was staying near them. She problably felt particularly annoyed that she was on holiday with her husband, he was giving her some attention. and here was Alice coming along to intrude on her private time.. Even if she did not officially visit the Royal Yacht she was there nearby and I'm sure Alex thought of Bertie slipping off to see her..
And yes of course the letter is about Mrs George Keppel. Why on earth woud it be about the Kaiser? He was Willie or Wilhelm or "Cousin Willy" not the Kaiser...
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