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  #441  
Old 12-22-2015, 05:12 PM
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Edward VII 's funeral? He died in May 6 1910. Prince George was born Dec 20, 1902. So George was only 7 when his grandfather died. He didn't go to naval college until 13 so he wasn't in the navy as a 7 year old.


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  #442  
Old 12-22-2015, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
Edward VII 's funeral? He died in May 6 1910. Prince George was born Dec 20, 1902. So George was only 7 when his grandfather died. He didn't go to naval college until 13 so he wasn't in the navy as a 7 year old.


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From the caption of the post i think Q.Alexandra's funeral in 1925 was intended...
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  #443  
Old 01-19-2016, 08:33 PM
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Edward VII and Alexandra were even on a postcard!
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/394346511101870657
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  #444  
Old 01-19-2016, 09:06 PM
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They were probably on lots of postcards. Queen Alexandra in particular was much-loved by the British public from the start. I knew someone years ago who collected Royal memorabilia and she had a transfer print dish commemorating Edward and Alexandra's wedding in 1863.
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  #446  
Old 09-10-2016, 05:14 AM
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what baloney
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  #447  
Old 09-10-2016, 06:53 AM
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What in the story is baloney?

Edward may have been Sonia's father. We don't know. He may not even have ever known.

Most of that story is well-known factual stuff although there are some exaggerations.
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  #448  
Old 09-10-2016, 07:01 AM
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I think it is very unlikely that Alice's children were conceived by other lovers. She only had 2 as far a I know, and generally a woman waited till she had had a few children, and sons, before having affairs that might result in more children.
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  #449  
Old 09-10-2016, 07:01 AM
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I don't think it's all baloney. It was known that the Keppels were hard up, and when the King died Alice cried out "Oh, whatever shall I do!" I don't think that was entirely because she was going to miss Bertie, though she undoubtedly did. She probably received discreet little 'gifts' from kind friends for years, though exactly how this maid knew all about it is problematical. Gossip among the servants perhaps.

It was said that Jack, Winston Churchill's younger brother, was fathered by another man, though it's true that Lord Randolph had a nasty bout of syphilis that ultimately killed him, so maybe Lord R. looked the other way where Jenny was concerned. As Alice's husband George, may have done, though I do think he was probably Sonia's father. (It became known that Alice was mistress to the POW in 1898. Sonia was born in 1900.)
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  #450  
Old 09-10-2016, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
I don't think it's all baloney. It was known that the Keppels were hard up, and when the King died Alice cried out "Oh, whatever shall I do!" I don't think that was entirely because she was going to miss Bertie, though she undoubtedly did. She probably received discreet little 'gifts' from kind friends for years, though exactly how this maid knew all about it is problematical. Gossip among the servants perhaps.

It was said that Jack, Winston Churchill's younger brother, was fathered by another man, though it's true that Lord Randolph had a nasty bout of syphilis that ultimately killed him, so maybe Lord R. looked the other way where Jenny was concerned. As Alice's husband may have done, though I do think he was probably Sonia's father.
It was not uncommon for upper class ladies to use their sexual and social charms to help either themselves or their husbands. Yes I am sure Alice did receive gifts from male admirers and from the King and as she was his recognised mistress he problaby helped her out financially if needed. But she wasn't "having sex with other men for money". She might have gone to bed with some of them, or might not, just flirted or amused them with her company.
And servants' gossip?? I mean, how accurate is that likley to be?

Clemmie Churchil's friends told her she was very selfish in refusing to take a lover when she was a young woman, because if she took up with an influential man, it could help Winston in his political career..
As for Jenny Churchill, she had lovers certainly but IMO one can't say with any certainty who fathered her sons. Winston was certainly a Chrurchill and was born only 7 months after the wedding so he was either premature or was perhaps conceived before marriage (it did happen occasionally with upper class brides). There were rumours about her second son, and I suppose they might be true, but its far from certain.
She certainly would not produce a cuckoo in the nest with her first child, a second son maybe, esp as Randolph was only a second son and not likely to become Duke..
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  #451  
Old 09-10-2016, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
what baloney
Why so?

There is no disagreement that they were lovers, so quite possible, if not actual.

So, logistics wise could it be possible? When did the affair start and when was Sonia born?
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  #452  
Old 09-10-2016, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
I think it is very unlikely that Alice's children were conceived by other lovers. She only had 2 as far a I know, and generally a woman waited till she had had a few children, and sons, before having affairs that might result in more children.
As you stated "generally" a woman waited until she had children by her husband to have affairs, that does not mean that all women did. There was another incident involving Edward VII having an affair with a married woman and when she had a child who was ill, she admitted to having affairs with numerous other men including the then Prince of Wales.
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  #453  
Old 09-10-2016, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Queen Claude View Post
As you stated "generally" a woman waited until she had children by her husband to have affairs, that does not mean that all women did.
Yes Harreit Mordaunt...she seems to have been a bit unstable. And Edward Denied having an affair with her..He had been indiscreet, and had flirted but problaby had not actually had an affair. She may have had other lovers, or she may have been just talking wildly. Alice Keppel seems to have been a sensible woman, and conventional, and I doubt if she would break the unwritten rules...
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  #454  
Old 09-10-2016, 08:02 AM
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You said though, Denville, that in general, women waited until a couple or more sons were born before they had affairs. Winston was the older of two sons; there were no other siblings before Jack. I'm not saying that another man fathered Winston, just his brother Jack.

Also Alice became the POW's acknowledged mistress in 1898. Sonia Keppel (Alice's second child) was born in 1900. I don't think Bertie was the father, but it's within the bounds of possibility.

And if Alice's male confidants/lovers were writing her discreet little cheques because George Keppel couldn't keep up the family's standard of living, then that is 'taking money from other men', however you slice it, IMO.
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  #455  
Old 09-10-2016, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
I think it is very unlikely that Alice's children were conceived by other lovers. She only had 2 as far a I know, and generally a woman waited till she had had a few children, and sons, before having affairs that might result in more children.
Lily Langtry didn't have her child with her husband. She too was a lover of Edward's but the child was possible Prince Louis of Battenburg's making her the half-aunt of Philip's. Lord Louis certainly believed she was his half-sister.

It isn't beyond the realms of possibility that Alice also didn't have her husband's child/ren.

The 'rules' were 'an heir and a spare'. Alice, like Lily before her, was having affairs before passing that rule. If the woman wasn't going to stick to the idea of producing the two sons before cheating then there is no reason to argue that her husband was the father of either of the children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dee Anna View Post
Why so?

There is no disagreement that they were lovers, so quite possible, if not actual.

So, logistics wise could it be possible? When did the affair start and when was Sonia born?
The affair started in 1898 or 1899 and Sonia was born in 1900 so definitely possible.
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  #456  
Old 09-10-2016, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Yes Harreit Mordaunt...she seems to have been a bit unstable. And Edward Denied having an affair with her..He had been indiscreet, and had flirted but problaby had not actually had an affair. She may have had other lovers, or she may have been just talking wildly. Alice Keppel seems to have been a sensible woman, and conventional, and I doubt if she would break the unwritten rules...
I have questions about the story, namely I want to know more about how and when the writer got the information since these events took place over 100 years ago. I don't automatically believe these stories but I am not going to stridently dismiss them based on generalizations either. Maybe Alice was a sensible woman because she needed money and knew that she had to be discreet in order to keep in good standing with the men she wanted to support her. Conventional? I think that is debatable. I don't think that all royal and aristocratic Edwardians were engaged in relationships outside their marriage as a matter of course, so I don't know if I would call her conventional.

P.S.
Perhaps this is apocryphal, but Alice supposedly said something along the lines of, her job as royal mistress was to curtsey first and then jump in bed.
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  #457  
Old 09-10-2016, 08:43 AM
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From my reading of the story one of the Alice's staff gave some interviews in the early 80s which are the basis of this writer's story.

Of course the staffer was talking 70 years at least after the events and she was presumably a junior housemaid aged in her mid-late teens to early 20s when these events were allegedly happening and then recalling them 70+ years later. How reliable said maids stories are we don't know as we don't know whether she had anything other than memory on which to base her stories - e.g. did she have a diary or letters to her parents etc??
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  #458  
Old 09-10-2016, 01:42 PM
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Alice Keppel was one of the nicest people. She was kind hearted and sweet.

Alice Keppel was not Edward's mistress. She was not the mistress of any man.

Alice Keppel would never have been allowed to step foot into Sandringham if she had been Edward's mistress or anyone's mistress.

It was Alexandra who invited Alice to Sandringham to celebrate Alexandra's birthday and everyone who is not out to trash Alice agrees that Alice Keppel would never been allow into Sandringham had she been Edward's mistress.
Edward would not have introduced his mistress to his family, much less invited her to the family home.
There are photographs of Alice at Sandringham with the BRF including Alexandra. One is from 1899, when Alice was pregnant with Sonia.
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  #459  
Old 09-10-2016, 02:01 PM
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Someone hawking a book filled with lies. Maybe he should have done a bit of research to make his lies believable.

Quote:
But some of the most revealing new evidence has come from interviews I conducted in the early Eighties, and am publishing for the first time, with a former housemaid, Agnes Cook.

She and her mother were servants at Mrs Keppel’s London house in Portman Square from the 1890s to the 1920s, and the detailed memories of this remarkable woman — who was in her late 80s when I interviewed her.
The Keppels did not live in Portman Square from 1890s to 1920.
Their first home is listed as 7 Haikin Street West. This was the home of Alice's mother.
In 1893 Alice's mother moved to 2 Wilton Terrace.
From 1890s to 1900 they lived at 2 Wilton Crescent.
From 1900 to 1910 they lives at Portman Square.
From 1910 to 1924 they lives at 16 Grosvenor Street.

The Keppels were not hard up.

Alice came from a wealthy family and yearly received money from a trust fund. They may not have been rich but that is reflected in their housing.
Her yearly income from the trust fund would have more than covered the lease on the house and the staff.

During their first year as a newly married coupled they live with Alice's mother or took over her residence.

When Violet was born in 1894 the Keppels were living in 2 Wilton Crescent. (Just yards from Alice's mother at 2 Wilton Terrace.)

In 1899, Alice became pregnant with Sonia and they leased 30 Portman Square.
2 Wilton Crescent was a much nicer house and in a better neighborhood than Portman Square.
Clearly a case of tightening the belt. 2 Wilton Crescent is still standing, 30 Portman Square was torn down.

In 1910 they moved to the less fashionable area of Grosvenor street. The house was larger to accommodate the dancing and dining for Violet's debut. The house was a commercial property that was on a main street without a garden or green space.

The 1901 census does not list an Agnes Cook, nor an Agnes nor a Cook as one the Keppel servants.

Sonia lists the maids at Portman Square during her childhood as Kate & Peggy. Bessie and Janet as the maids at Grosvenor in 1920. No Agnes.

Agnes Cook would have been born around 1895. The youngest woman employed in 1901 was 20 not 6.

The entire Keppel family was trusted by the BRF. Henry, Colin, Marie, Maria, Meita, Arnold, Gertrude, Elizabeth, Walter, Derek, Bridget, George and Alice etc.

Alexandra preferred her family and stayed abroad for extended periods. Alexandra had Victoria as her trusted companion and Edward had Alice as his trusted companion (not his mistress.). Approved and sanctioned by Alexandra and probably chosen by Alexandra.

FYI, Edward had been impotent since 1895. (Regardless he would never have chosen Alice as a mistress due to her Keppel connection.) A simple comparison between Alice and Edward's known mistresses would show the clear difference.

The picture of the woman lounging is not Alice, I believe it is Lily Langtry.
Note the date.

The picture of the couple walking is not Alice & George Keppel but George's brother Arnold & his wife Gertrude.
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  #460  
Old 09-10-2016, 04:29 PM
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I know nothing about this book, which is probably extremely unreliable.

However, George Duke of York and his wife Princess May don't seem to have felt the warm glow of Mrs Keppel and Queen Alexandra's friendship and mutual admiration as described in above posts.

George was with his parents King Edward and Queen Alexandra at Cowes Week in 1902. Queen Mary, who was a bad sailor, was not present, but wrote to her husband enquiring about the atmosphere on board the royal yacht.

George replied that peace reigned but "Alas Mrs K arrives tomorrow and stops here in a yacht. I am afraid that peace and quiet will not remain.'
May, his wife, sympathised and wrote back 'What a pity Mrs G K is again to the fore! How annoyed Mama (Queen Alexandra) will be!'

On the other hand Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone, wrote in memoirs in her old age about Mrs Keppel being an entertaining confidante and companion to King Edward and remarked '...Of course there was a lot of gossip and public disapproval of their relationship, and unnecessary sympathy for Aunt Alix who did not need it as she welcomed the arrangement.'
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