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  #581  
Old 10-17-2017, 02:37 PM
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If Queen Mary and King George were actively preparing Elizabeth for David then they were playing a very odd double game (which I don't believe they were.) For months before they were finally engaged prince Bertie was confiding in his mother about his love for Elizabeth, according to Shawcross. Also according to Shawcross, although Elizabeth liked Bertie very much at the time he first proposed she felt she wasn't in love with him and refused.

However, he was determined, and saw her several times and their relationship grew. Queen Mary was quite perturbed as she felt that as Elizabeth had asked him not to press her, that the relationship should finish. Lady Strathmore, far from preparing Elizabeth for David, was fond of Bertie, liked him very much and felt sorry for him.

Bertie proposed again and was refused as she felt that she still wasn't ready. He was upset but they still continued seeing each other. It was at this time that a report in the Daily Star appeared, stating that she was going to be David's bride. Elizabeth's friends teased her but she regarded the report, which other papers followed as they do today, as quite 'stupid' and wrote that in her diary.

She continued to see Bertie and grew very fond of him. He confided in his mother that he intended to marry Elizabeth and that this time he hoped she would say 'Yes'. He arranged to send a telegram from Elizabeth's country home at St Pauls Walden to which he had been invited, and if everything went well he would send a telegram with the words 'All right' on it.

He proposed at about 11:30 pm on a Sunday night in January after a long talk, was accepted but the telegram was not sent. He took Elizabeth to lunch on the Monday at his sister and brother in laws house and while they were there the prince of Wales came and congratulated them.

Bertie went to Sandringham and told his parents in person. The King wrote in his diary that Bertie had arrived after tea and told them he was engaged. And that they 'had gladly given consent. I trust they will be very happy.' The Queen wrote 'We are delighted and he looks beaming. We sent off telegrams, wrote letters and were very busy....'

Shawcross has extracts of Elizabeth and Bertie's letters, of extracts from Queen Mary's letters and conversations and the Strathmores' reactions as well. In none of them is there any mention of the King or Queen giving any encouragement to Elizabeth that she was considered a bride for David, nor are there any references in Strathmore or Elizabeth's correspondence to close friends about any such possibility, and Shawcross covers that period of Elizabeth's life in quite minute detail.

Every author has to have a hook for their stories and some I guess prefer to take the sensational approach, whether true or not. I think Lady CC is beneath contempt and other authors have obviously chosen to join her speculations.
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  #582  
Old 10-17-2017, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
If Queen Mary and King George were actively preparing Elizabeth for David then they were playing a very odd double game (which I don't believe they were.) For months before they were finally engaged prince Bertie was confiding in his mother about his love for Elizabeth, according to Shawcross. Also according to Shawcross, although Elizabeth liked Bertie very much at the time he first proposed she felt she wasn't in love with him and refused.

However, he was determined, and saw her several times and their relationship grew. Queen Mary was quite perturbed as she felt that as Elizabeth had asked him not to press her, that the relationship should finish. Lady Strathmore, far from preparing Elizabeth for David, was fond of Bertie, liked him very much and felt sorry for him.

Bertie proposed again and was refused as she felt that she still wasn't ready. He was upset but they still continued seeing each other. It was at this time that a report in the Daily Star appeared, stating that she was going to be David's bride. Elizabeth's friends teased her but she regarded the report, which other papers followed as they do today, as quite 'stupid' and wrote that in her diary.

She continued to see Bertie and grew very fond of him. He confided in his mother that he intended to marry Elizabeth and that this time he hoped she would say 'Yes'. He arranged to send a telegram from Elizabeth's country home at St Pauls Walden to which he had been invited, and if everything went well he would send a telegram with the words 'All right' on it.

He proposed at about 11:30 pm on a Sunday night in January after a long talk, was accepted but the telegram was not sent. He took Elizabeth to lunch on the Monday at his sister and brother in laws house and while they were there the prince of Wales came and congratulated them.

Bertie went to Sandringham and told his parents in person. The King wrote in his diary that Bertie had arrived after tea and told them he was engaged. And that they 'had gladly given consent. I trust they will be very happy.' The Queen wrote 'We are delighted and he looks beaming. We sent off telegrams, wrote letters and were very busy....'

Shawcross has extracts of Elizabeth and Bertie's letters, of extracts from Queen Mary's letters and conversations and the Strathmores' reactions as well. In none of them is there any mention of the King or Queen giving any encouragement to Elizabeth that she was considered a bride for David, nor are there any references in Strathmore or Elizabeth's correspondence to close friends about any such possibility, and Shawcross covers that period of Elizabeth's life in quite minute detail.

Every author has to have a hook for their stories and some I guess prefer to take the sensational approach, whether true or not. I think Lady CC is beneath contempt and other authors have obviously chosen to join her speculations.
Yes, I read the Shawcross book and it never mentioned anything about Elizabeth being considered for David. When I read it in the Campbell book, I immediately dismissed it, but when I read it in the Anne Sebba book, I just wondered if there was possibly anything to it. My feeling is that there is nothing to this, so now I am wondering if the Anne Sebba book is trustworthy in its portrayal of the Duchess of Windsor.
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  #583  
Old 10-17-2017, 04:59 PM
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Sarah Bradford, in her biography of King George VI, dismisses it also. She states that it appears to have been a rumour that developed in aristocratic circles among people at least a generation younger than Elizabeth.

She points to the fact that the socialite MP Chips Channon makes no mention of any rumour about David and Elizabeth at the time. Chips knew David, Elizabeth and Bertie as well as the Strathmore family, and stayed at Glamis several times in the early 1920s. He was an extraordinary gossip (have you ever read his extremely interesting diaries?) and if he hadn't picked up any stories viz the POW and Lady Elizabeth then they were non existent!
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  #584  
Old 10-18-2017, 12:15 AM
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It seems to me that if the story is accurate (it has that whiff) it is very likely that it was out of respect and politeness towards the QM that it was be brushed aside as spurious rumor. After all, she became the wife of a King and mother of a Queen. The love-marriage needed to be seen as unsullied by dilution. It seems like something (especially the implication that Elizabeth was more enamored than David, indicated by David himself) that would have to be squashed, and was, by loyal retainers. JMO.
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  #585  
Old 10-18-2017, 12:47 AM
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Well, if there are any serious biographies that have any letters at all from the time before Elizabeth and Bertie's engagement (the very early 1920's) of people repeating the rumour about David and Elizabeth, then could you please produce them, Lady Nimue.

I've already given sources from two good biographies of Elizabeth and her husband that show that the theory has no legs.

Could you please provide something from a recognised bio that does the opposite? Something that has, for instance, letters from Queen Mary or King George to Edward urging marriage to Lady Elizabeth. Something from Edward pre 1923 (when he was deeply involved with Freda Dudley Ward) that says the same?

None of the men in her circle as a single young woman, James Stuart, Bruce Ogilvy, Arthur Penn, Lord Gage, for example, all of whom were fond of her, ever produced any correspondence that gave any hint that Elizabeth was keen on the Prince of Wales.

They were all aristocratic young men of independent means, hardly 'loyal retainers'. Nor was Chips Channon, later a Conservative MP who became close to King Edward VIII and Mrs Simpson. Nor, for that matter, are Sarah Bradford or William Shawcrosd or any other serious biographer that I have ever read.

Later, after the Abdication, David said many bitter and untrue things about his sister in law, whom he blamed for Wallis never getting an HRH and for exerting undue influence on his brother.

As I've stated above, Sarah Bradford investigated the rumour about Elizabeth wanting to marry Edward and being balked, and found it seemed to emanate from much later than the early 1920s. Now, I wonder who could have started that particular rumour? Not WE surely, lol?

In short, I don't believe that rumour has 'the accurate whiff of truth' at all, and I look forward to sources from well-researched biographies to prove me wrong. No novels from Lady Colin though, please.
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  #586  
Old 10-18-2017, 12:48 AM
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David's parents suggested a number of suitable young women as a bride but he wasn't interested in any of them. And Bertie was determined in his pursuit of Lady Elizabeth. I have always read that she really wasn't interested in marrying into the royal family and it took considerable persuasion to convince her into changing her mind.
Even if she had had a crush on David at one point(which I don't believe) by the time David became enthralled with Wallis, Bertie and Elizabeth had formed a strong family unit-"we four." I do believe she held a grudge because David's actions turned her family's life upside down.
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  #587  
Old 10-18-2017, 01:34 AM
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Curryong, I leave you to define 'serious'. It will depend on what books you choose to believe. Lady Colin Campbell is one source for the tale but I do not think one need dismiss the story out-of-hand. It has many elements that have the ring of authenticity. David himself said Elizabeth was overly fond of him. I just think there is more in that whole story than meets the official eye. There are just too many reasons why it would be denied. It's undignified, for one. JMO.
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  #588  
Old 10-18-2017, 01:47 AM
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Just well-researched biographies from biographers, with footnotes and not a whole lot of imagination will be fine, thanks, just so long as they have footnoted letters or other documentation supporting the rumour, OF THE TIME, ie before the Spring of 1923.

I've already stated that the rumour of Elizabeth being in love with Bertie and he repudiating her was traced by Sarah Bradford to the generation below hers. I've also stated, without direct proof certainly, that as David and Wallis said so many cruel and nasty things about Elizabeth that the rumour could well have emanated from them.

Looking forward to reading the sources you can come up with, not just feelings and unsubstantiated rumours or assertions by unreliable authors like Lady Colin, Please.
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  #589  
Old 10-18-2017, 02:00 AM
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Originally Posted by duchessrachel View Post
When I read Lady Colin Campbell's book on the Queen Mother, she said that one of the reasons that she kept declining Prince Albert's proposals was because she really wanted to marry Prince Edward (the Duke of Windsor). I have no faith whatsoever in that book and am ashamed I even read it. But now, I am reading "That Woman" by Anne Sebba which is about the Duchess of Windsor and she makes the same claim. Is there any truth to this?
No, its rubbish
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  #590  
Old 10-18-2017, 02:04 AM
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Curryong, pass on. We must agree to disagree.
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  #591  
Old 10-18-2017, 02:20 AM
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So, forgive me, your assertion that the rumour about the King and Queen pressing Lady Elizabeth on to David and she being in love with him and he repudiating her is based on nothing more solid than your own personal opinion that it appears to be true?

I was hoping for some sources in reliable biographies that I could read. However it seems there's nothing.
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  #592  
Old 10-18-2017, 03:19 AM
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If I remember right from the Shawcross biography, Elizabeth and Bertie often went out for the evening with David and enjoyed his company. I do think Elizabeth became close to and fond of David but as a brother-in-law. She saw up close and personal the effect that Wallis Simpson had on him, she knew his character well but she also had an ingrained sense of duty. It was that sense of duty that was a blessing for Bertie once David abdicated and gave him strength to "keep calm and carry on".

I never once got the impression that Elizabeth had any kind of romantic interest in David whatsoever.
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  #593  
Old 10-18-2017, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Sarah Bradford, in her biography of King George VI, dismisses it also. She states that it appears to have been a rumour that developed in aristocratic circles among people at least a generation younger than Elizabeth.

She points to the fact that the socialite MP Chips Channon makes no mention of any rumour about David and Elizabeth at the time. Chips knew David, Elizabeth and Bertie as well as the Strathmore family, and stayed at Glamis several times in the early 1920s. He was an extraordinary gossip (have you ever read his extremely interesting diaries?) and if he hadn't picked up any stories viz the POW and Lady Elizabeth then they were non existent!
No I have not read his diaries. I will add those to my reading list Thanks.
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  #594  
Old 10-18-2017, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Just well-researched biographies from biographers, with footnotes and not a whole lot of imagination will be fine, thanks, just so long as they have footnoted letters or other documentation supporting the rumour, OF THE TIME, ie before the Spring of 1923.

I've already stated that the rumour of Elizabeth being in love with Bertie and he repudiating her was traced by Sarah Bradford to the generation below hers. I've also stated, without direct proof certainly, that as David and Wallis said so many cruel and nasty things about Elizabeth that the rumour could well have emanated from them.

Looking forward to reading the sources you can come up with, not just feelings and unsubstantiated rumours or assertions by unreliable authors like Lady Colin, Please.
Yes, I went back and reread the assertion in the book I am reading and it is not footnoted.
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  #595  
Old 10-18-2017, 11:18 AM
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No, its rubbish
I believe it is too. I thank everyone for giving me more info on this.
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  #596  
Old 10-18-2017, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
If I remember right from the Shawcross biography, Elizabeth and Bertie often went out for the evening with David and enjoyed his company. I do think Elizabeth became close to and fond of David but as a brother-in-law. She saw up close and personal the effect that Wallis Simpson had on him, she knew his character well but she also had an ingrained sense of duty. It was that sense of duty that was a blessing for Bertie once David abdicated and gave him strength to "keep calm and carry on".

I never once got the impression that Elizabeth had any kind of romantic interest in David whatsoever.
I shoudl say that maybe she did like him at first as a friend and brother, but I'm sure that with her very "tough" hard line sense of duty, she disapproved very much of his lack of duty, which got more noticeable as he got older. and when his leaving the throne meant that Bertie became King, and she believed, wore himself out at 50 or so, with his devotion to his people, with the War etc...Well I'm sure she stopped liking David after that....
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  #597  
Old 10-18-2017, 09:16 PM
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Wow, I am amazed that old chestnut got pulled out of the fire yet again. Just from a character point of view, Elizabeth had absolutely nothing in common with David and she did not move in the same society circle as he before she wed his brother. I think she may have admired him from afar when she was very young as he was the British poster boy of an attractive prince charming and he was their very own Prince of Wales, a very happy and charismatic man at that time.

However, as time passed he became harder and more selfish and self-centred and his lifestyle more decadent and more indiscreet, causing a lot of turmoil within the BRF and not a little with the Government. The King was ill, the Queen was angry and by that time Elizabeth and Bertie were a happy family unit with two beloved daughters and David had liked to swoop in on occasion and play the devoted uncle.

That David's incomprehensible behaviour should cause so much grief to his parents, then to the government and finally, inevitably, to Bertie and Elizabeth should surprise no-one, just as David would blame Elizabeth for his brother's hard line against him over the abdication. I think he thought he could charm mummy and Bertie always looked up to him and loved him so that left Elizabeth as the culprit when he didn't get what he wanted.

He conveniently overlooked the fact that his own Mother flatly refused to receive Wallis before the death of her husband and that Bertie's family had taken their lead from Queen Mary and supported her. Worse, Wallis had made a "thing" of making fun of Elizabeth calling her a dowdy, frumpy little housewife or Cookie! I do not doubt that Queen Mary and the Duchess of York had Wallis' measure from the get-go.
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  #598  
Old 10-24-2017, 03:58 PM
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Well, at least deep down she had to thank David for abdicating and giving her the chance of being Queen instead of a plump, plain Duchess of York, besides handing her a free ticket for 50 years of easy retirement.

I'm sure she was quite grateful for that.
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  #599  
Old 10-24-2017, 04:10 PM
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I believe it was the exact opposite. Its a well known fact that the Queen Mum blamed the abdication crisis and her husband suddenly being thrust onto the throne unprepared as the cause of his early death. I think the last thing that she ever wanted or expected to be was Queen.
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  #600  
Old 10-24-2017, 04:13 PM
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Elizabeth was quite fond of being "a plump, plain" Duchess of York and blamed him becoming king for the early death of her husband so I'm quite sure she'd preferred to stay that way.
In the end she might've been Queen anyway after the death of her brother-in-law.
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