Henry VIII (1491-1547) and Wives


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
I read in Alison Wier that it was Cromwell who mentioned the marriage between Mary and Fitzroy, but the idea was never taken seriuosly, it may have been to annoy the spanish ambassador Chapuys who was trying to protect Mary's marriage rights.
Also, I find it difficult to believe Henry Carey was the son of Henry viii. Henryviii never gave him the time of day, and Henry was a doting father (when the mood struck him)to all his children, illigetimate or not, but he was frantically protective of sons, despite wanting Anne, I doubt he would have ignored a natural son when he was so desperate for male children.
 
Also, I find it difficult to believe Henry Carey was the son of Henry viii. Henryviii never gave him the time of day, and Henry was a doting father (when the mood struck him)to all his children, illigetimate or not, but he was frantically protective of sons, despite wanting Anne, I doubt he would have ignored a natural son when he was so desperate for male children.

Henry VIII was desperate for Legitimate Sons. There is a difference, and there especially was to him and to the Tudor Dynasty. It would not have mattered if he had 10 illegitimate sons. If he had no lawful son to inherit the throne after him, he would have found it very difficult indeed to try to place an illegitimate one there instead.

Of course, whether or not Henry Carey was his son remains a hot topic of debate among many historians. There are some that say he could not have been the son of Henry VIII because the King never recognized him and did not elevate him to a high position as he did with Henry FitzRoy.

On the other hand, there is some evidence to suggest that Henry Carey was his son. He himself claimed in 1533 that he was “Our Sovereign Lord the King’s son”. He became the ward of Anne Boleyn after the death of Sir William Carey in 1528, and was thereby ensured an excellent education. He apparently remained mostly at court as an adult, where he worked tirelessly for the will of his Sovereign.

Henry VIII had nothing to gain by claiming either of the Carey children. By law, they were considered to be the children of William Carey. He certainly couldn't claim them before he married Anne, which would futher complicate an already complicated situation. After her trial and execution, I'm sure everyone had had quite enough of the Boleyns, and it would have again been imprudent to acknowledge them.

In fact, leaving everyone to believe that they were the offspring of William Carey was probably a kinder fate for them both. It left them without any stain on their reputations, and allowed them to become trusted courtiers under Henry VIII's watchful eye.

William Carey was rewarded with royal grants in 1524 and 1526, which are thought to have been the birth dates of Catherine and Henry Carey. Some historians feel that the King was compensating Carey for the fact that these were not his biological children. William Carey, was also given royal grants in 1522 and 1523, which is thought to be the beginning years of his affair with Mary Boleyn.

Henry VIII admitted his affair and also admitted “affinity” and “consanguinity” with Mary Carey and it could be pointed out that his dispensation to marry Anne probably would not have been necessary if no children had resulted from the relationship.

It was Elizabeth I, however, that elevated Henry Carey to a peerage. Elizabeth also visited him on his deathbed and gave him the patent and robes of the Earldom of Wiltshire, which he refused. It is also said that when Elizabeth died, Henry Carey’s son, Robert, received the ring taken from the Queen’s hand. Catherine Carey had attended the Queen, was buried at Royal expense and given a prominent memorial on her death.

Neither of the Carey children ever suffered any misfortunes in Elizabeth's Court. They never fell from favor with her, and were members of her closest inner circle. And it must also be said that Catherine Carey's daughter, Lettice, bore a remarkable resemblance to Queen Elizabeth. Even though they were maternally related, it was the Tudor red hair that made Lettice Knollys favor the Queen so much.

Of course, it cannot be said with certainty that Henry VIII fathered Henry Carey. I hope one day we will have a definite answer to this question. It does seem very likely that he was the father of Catherine Carey, at least.
 
Lettice Knollys was a Carey who definitely wasn´t favoured by Queen Elizabeth II, well she wasn´t after she married in secret one of the Queen´s favourites the very handsome Walter Devereaux, the handsome Earl of Essex, who later on met a sticky end.
 
Henry VIII had nothing to gain by claiming either of the Carey children. By law, they were considered to be the children of William Carey.

So here's an interesting question, then: was Bessie Blount married when Henry FitzRoy was born? If not, perhaps Henry was only willing to acknowledge illegitimate children when doing so would not embarrass the man who was legally known to be the father of the child -- i.e., when the mistress was not married?
 
Bessie Blount was not married at the time she became Henry VIII's mistress. She was a maid of honour to Catherine of Aragon. In 1514, she became Henry's mistress, aged only 12. Henry's affair to her was one of the longest he had ever had, lasting 7 years. In 1519, aged only 17, she gave birth to Henry's only acknowledged illegitimate son, Henry Fitzroy. Soon after the child's birth her affair with Henry stopped and in 1522, her marriage was arranged to Gilbert Tailboys, 1st Baron Tailboys of Kyme.

If Henry FitzRoy didn't die in 1536, there is every indication that Henry VIII would probably name him his successor (he didn't have his legitimate son at the time), or at least would arrange that Fitzroy was to succeed any legitimate sons he might have.
At the time of his death, an Act was going though Parliament which disinherited Henry's daughter Elizabeth (Mary was already disinherited at the time). It also permitted the King to name his successor; an important provision of the Act provided that it didn't matter whether the successor was legitimate or not. Although there is no evidence that would prove Henry planned to name Fitzroy his successor, the Act would have permitted him to do so.
Henry certainly seemed to be on the path of acknowledging his son's rights in some way, especially after he granted Fitzroy the titles of the Earl of Nottingham and Duke of Richmond and Somerset. The boy's marriage with Lady Mary Howard (the only daughter of the Duke of Norfolk and first cousin to Anne and Mary Boleyn) was also arranged, so he was set to inherit the vast fortunes (and possibly titles) of his father-in-law.
There was also talk that Henry planned to make Henry Fitzroy King of Ireland, while his daughter Mary would be Queen of England (that was before his divorce with Catherine of Aragon).


Personally I don't believe Mary Boleyn's son was from Henry. As mentioned above, the Act of Parliament would enable Henry to name even his illegitimate son(s) as his successor. Henry would only need to publically acknowledge William Carey for the boy to qualify. It would be even for Henry to have a male heir after Henry Fitzroy’s death, for his legitimate son, Edward, was not born until a year later. Even after Edward's birth, Henry was troubled with the question of succession, for Edward was a sickly child. If he had another, even illegitimate son, he would have made sure the son has some succession rights, probably even superior to that of Mary and Elizabeth (the legitimacy of both was arguable as well, at least in the eyes of some, and would later case a lot of headache for both).
 
I have read also that Henry Carey declared he was the King's son in Henry's lifetime, but the Kings reaction is never recorded, did he deny or ignore it?
 
I have never heard that Henry Carey declared he was the King's son at all, but I would think (IMO) that they would want no parts of court after his Aunt's death. rather to be poor, happy and breathing.
 
That's for sure, but he and his sister did become very close to Elizabeth...I wonder did she think of them of siblings, she never aknowledged them as such though.
 
I suppose there's no real way to establish the Carey/Tudor connection firmly today, but it certainly is an interesting question. And, if I'm sorting things out right, if Catherine Carey was indeed Henry VIII's child, that would mean that Prince William would be the first monarch since Elizabeth I to be descended from Henry VIII, right?
 
Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon was descended from Catherine Carey through her great-grandmother, Anne Caroline Salisbury, which makes Queen Elizabeth II the first Monarch with Henry VIII's blood (if Catherine was indeed Henry's daughter).
 
Lettice Knollys was a Carey who definitely wasn´t favoured by Queen Elizabeth II, well she wasn´t after she married in secret one of the Queen´s favourites the very handsome Walter Devereaux, the handsome Earl of Essex, who later on met a sticky end.

It was her 2nd husband, Robert Dudley, Earl of Leiceter, who was the great favorite of Queen Elizabeth. Lettice's secret marriage to him in 1578 did indeed get her banished from court. And Elizabeth never forgave either of them.

By this time, of course, Catherine Carey, Lady Knollys, had been dead for several years, having died in 1569.
 
So here's an interesting question, then: was Bessie Blount married when Henry FitzRoy was born? If not, perhaps Henry was only willing to acknowledge illegitimate children when doing so would not embarrass the man who was legally known to be the father of the child -- i.e., when the mistress was not married?

Bessie Blount was not married at the time of her affair with Henry VIII, as was previously stated.

Her son, Henry FitzRoy, was born 15 June 1519, and she continued her affair with the King until 1522, when she married her 1st husband. Her marriage to Gilbert Tailboys was said to have been arranged by the King.

Gilbert was created 1st Baron Tailboys of Kyme in 1529, several years after his step-son was created Duke of Richmond and Somerset. Apparently, he and Bessie remained in favor with the King after their marriage.

Gilbert and Bessie also had several children together. They were Elizabeth, George and Robert Tailboys.

Both of their sons died without issue, and Elizabeth eventually inherited the Barony. She was married to Ambrose Dudley, Earl of Warwick, who was Baron Tailboys in her right until her death in 1560. They had no children and the peerage became extinct on her death.

After Gilbert Tailboys died in 1530, Bessie Blount married Edward Clinton, 1st Earl of Lincoln, in 1534. They had 3 daughters together; Bridget, Katherine, and Margaret Clinton, who all survived to adulthood.

Katherine Clinton was Lady Borough of Gainsborough, and Margaret Clinton was Lady Willoughby of Parham.
 
Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon was descended from Catherine Carey through her great-grandmother, Anne Caroline Salisbury, which makes Queen Elizabeth II the first Monarch with Henry VIII's blood (if Catherine was indeed Henry's daughter).

I had not heard that Anne Caroline Salisbury was a descendant of Catherine Carey. Do you have this ancestral line? Or do you know which of Catherine's children she was descended from?
 
I believe Anne Salisbury's ancestor was Helena Savage (born West), one of the daughters of Anne Knollys and Thomas West. Anne Knollys was Catherine's daughter.

I have read this some 2-3 years ago and remembered it because I was studying the Tudors at the time. I am not certain what book(s) that was in (although I am sure it was a book, not an internet article), however if you are interested, I will try to find the source.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If you could find the source, that would be terrific. I have enabled private email on this forum, so you can send it to me if you find it. If not, then its ok.. just knowing the names is a great help for further research.

I'm very interested in this because this is my West line. I know that Helena West was born 15 Dec 1587 and that she married William Savage circa 1607, but I have no children listed for them.

Thanks for the information! :flowers:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
My pleasure. :flowers:
I will do my best to find the source; it has to be either in one of my books about the Tudors, or in the ones about Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother.

Another thing I remember, which may be of some help to you, is that Anne Salisbury was descendant from Helena and William Savage's second daughter (unfortunately, I don't remember the name), so they had at least two children.
 
Lettice Knollys was a Carey who definitely wasn´t favoured by Queen Elizabeth II, well she wasn´t after she married in secret one of the Queen´s favourites the very handsome Walter Devereaux, the handsome Earl of Essex, who later on met a sticky end.
Yes, my best friend as a child's mother was a Devereaux, who had the whole family tree memorized, basically. Definately a descendant of Lettice and Walter Devereaux
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Wow!
I am blown away with all the information and opinions at hand!
I love Royal History; with Henry VIII & Charles II (and those inbetween my fav's).
Does anyone know how long Katharine & Arthur were married?
& why her name is sometimes spelt with a C
- loving the posts!

Hello all currently on-line.
As I'm a "newbie" I would like some help please.
How do I retrieve the "reply"'s - when I see a number of replies beside my last post I click on them and I get names not answers?
Is there a set of instructions I can read?
Thanking you in anticipation...
Shari-aree

Wow Avalon really knows Royal History.
Can you please tell me how long Arthur & Katharine were married.
Ta!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Welcome to the forum, shari-aree. :flowers:
I'm not avalon but I'll be delighted to answer your question.

Arthur and Catherine's marriage was arranged when both were two years old (as part of the Treaty of Medina del Campo).
They were married by proxy in 1499 (both were 14 at the time).
Their actual marriage took place in November of 1501 (Arthur was 15, Catherine - 16) at St. Paul's Cathedral.
Arthur died in April 1502.

If one counts their marriage from May 1499 (the day of their marriage by proxy), then they were married for 2 years and 11 months.
If we starts the count from the date of their actual marriage (which took place days after they had met each other for the first time), then their marriage lasted only 4 months 15 days.
 
Last edited:
Mary Boleyn

Need some help here - how many children did Mary Boleyn have and by whom?
 
Need some help here - how many children did Mary Boleyn have and by whom?

Her marriage to Sir William Carey (1495 – 22 June 1528) resulted in the birth of two children (however there were rumours that King Henry VIII was the biological father):
  • Catherine Carey (1524 – 15 January 1568). Rumoured to have been the child of King Henry VIII. Maid-of-Honour to Anne of Cleves and Catherine Howard. She married a Puritan, Sir Francis Knollys, Knight of the Garter. She was later Chief Lady of the Bedchamber to her cousin, Elizabeth I. One of her daughters, Lettice Knollys, became the second wife of Robert Dudley, 1st Earl of Leicester, the favourite of Elizabeth I.
  • Henry Carey, 1st Baron Hunsdon (4 March 1526 – 23 July 1596). Also rumoured to have been the child of Henry VIII. He was ennobled by Queen Elizabeth I just after her coronation and later made a Knight of the Garter. When he was dying, Elizabeth offered Henry the Boleyn family title of Earl of Ormond, which he had long sought, but he declined. He was married to Anne Morgan.
Mary's marriage to Sir William Stafford (d. 5 May 1556) resulted in the birth of two children:
  • Anne (? - ?), probably named in honour of Mary's sister, Queen Anne Boleyn.
  • Edward (1535 - 1545).
 
New Anne Boleyn Claim.. True?

New Scandal? What is this all about?

Poem backs claims Anne Boleyn had five lovers... one her brother | Mail Online

The Daily Mail isn't really that credited as a news source is it? I remember it as being kind of inaccurate and gossip like.

I really think this is another sad attempt to show how "horrible" Anne Boleyn truly was. It was so black and white with her. People either hated her or loved her. I thought those who testified were threatened and some tortured to admit certain things that were not true in her trial. Also, this might be incorrect because I watch the series "The Tudors" - but soon before her demise.. didn't she publicly insult the French or was that just a fictional scene made for the tv series?
 
This is nuts. For her ladies in waiting to "look the other way" would have been treason enough, putting them in severe danger. Anne was rarely alone after she became Queen.
 
You do need to consider the sources. Take the Daily Mail with a grain of salt.....sometimes they do provide accurate information and other times they don't.

In regards to the Tudors, I watched it the first season and had no problem getting rid of Showtime because of the historical inaccuracies. This is the same show that merged two of Henry's sisters (Mary and Margaret) into one person (I believe it was just Margaret)!

I do believe that they men confessed under torture. Anne was guility of many things (being a man stealer, not a nice person, and a horrible stepmother) but I think a lot of the cheating charges were false. Point blank...Henry wanted a son and her wanted her gone. He wanted a clean slate. And getting rid of Anne was cleaning the slate. He didn't care how she left.
 
That's what I though - at least from what I remember when I was over there - it was a gossip column newspaper. Yes, the show on Showtime. It has MANY inaccuracies, that I am annoyed with, yes. They don't take enough time to thoroughly explain things, they merged sisters, yes. They have left out sooooo much - for example Margaret and Charles Brandon never had children and she dies of consumption.

I agree with Henry wanted her gone. I wrote in another thread how I found it ironic that he tried so hard to secure HIS line, so that the Tudor Dynasty may flourish. Since women were not considered to be fit rulers he didn't really prepare his daughters to be Queen. He counted on Edward to carry on the line, but his sudden death brought Mary to the throne. Mary and Elizabeth - I think were so scarred from their upbringing that marriage and children were in a way scary to them. Mary was so afraid that she would never marry - then Elizabeth never married and had no children - which in her instance was prob a good thing. She was WAY too stubborn and strong willed, plus she was prob. scared of childbirth. Anyway, like I was trying to say before I got off on a tangent - While Henry is so obsessed trying to secure his legacy with a son to carry the Tudor name, his line ends with a daughter, Elizabeth - the daughter of the supposed "whore" - then only to be picked up by his older sister's child and great-grandchild who becomes ruler of Scotland and England. Haha! :lol: What a sore loser.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I hardly think a "poem" may be considered proof positive that Anne had affairs with several men, including her brother. Popular ditties of the day often referenced famous people and made fun of them. To me, the poem may have been the public's comment on the charges against Anne.

I read in a book on Henry VIII that a man from Scotland wrote to Queen Elizabeth I and said that at the time of Anne's execution, he talked with Cromwell or Cranmer who said that Anne was innocent. Anne did not make an appeal to the King (this "written appeal" was found to be a forgery) but only asked to be "shriven" of her sins and told the confessor that she was innocent. This person assumed, and probably rightly so, that one facing imminent death would be truthful in confessing her sins and misdeeds.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Back
Top Bottom