Henry VIII (1491-1547) and Wives

[kimebear]

Catherine never accepted the decree by the newly minted Church of England that her marriage to Henry was declared invalid. Henry didn't divorce her, he had the marriage annulled meaning that, in the eyes of the CoE, it never existed in the first place. It was certainly awkward for all parties involved.

 

[Kotroman]

That fact makes it impossible for someone to recognize both Katherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn as Henry VIII's lawfully wedded wives. Henry VIII was aware of this situation - in which people had no idea who was their lawful queen - so he decided to make it easier for them by having Anne Boleyn executed shortly after the annulment of their marriage. Catherine of Aragon was already dead by then, so his new wife would meet no opposition whatsoever.

 

[Al_bina]

You do have a point there.

 

[Menarue]

There was a historical novel by Jean Plaidy about Henry VIII and his wives that had a very apt title "Murder Most Royal".

 

[kimebear]

That fact makes it impossible for someone to recognize both Katherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn as Henry VIII's lawfully wedded wives. Henry VIII was aware of this situation - in which people had no idea who was their lawful queen - so he decided to make it easier for them by having Anne Boleyn executed shortly after the annulment of their marriage. Catherine of Aragon was already dead by then, so his new wife would meet no opposition whatsoever.

If you wanted to argue semantics, you could say that all six marriages count because he was lawfully wedded by one church or another all six times. Also, all six women were considered the Queen of England, which they never would have been if they had not been married to the King.

 

[Al_bina]

Right you are, kimebear, noting that all ladies in question were viewed as Queens of England. The course of history smoothed over sharp angles. However, post-Aragon/Bolyen marriages existed in a clear legal situation. This means that King Henri VIII was legally single, when taking Jane Seymour (Anne of Cleves, who consented to divorce without any problems; Kathryn Howard; and Katherine Parr) in marriage. I believe that is all.

 

[Menarue]

Then of course later on we have the tricky situation of Mrs Fitzherbert.
King Henry VIII had no problems at all, he just did what he wanted and got away with it and while getting his own way assured himself he was doing the right thing and eliminated all reasons for feeling guilty or having a bad conscience.

 

[Kotroman]

If you wanted to argue semantics, you could say that all six marriages count because he was lawfully wedded by one church or another all six times. Also, all six women were considered the Queen of England, which they never would have been if they had not been married to the King.

Actually, one church or another later proclaimed four of the six marriages null and void (non-existing). So, he "lawfully" wedded Anne Boleyn in the Church of England, but the Church of England later proclaimed that they were never lawfully wedded and that the marriage didn't exist - and therefore, that Anne Boleyn was never queen. As we all know, Katherine of Aragon was not stripped of her title of queen because her marriage to Henry ended - she was stripped of her title because her marriage to Henry never actually existed in the eyes of the English law. All six women were considered the Queen of England while they were considered the King's lawfully wedded wife. When their marriages were annulled, the Church proclaimed that they never queens.

 

[Al_bina]

Does it leave us with Jane Seymour and Katherine Parr as lawful Queens of England?

 

[Kotroman]

That's what the Church of England and Henry VIII himself believed - that only Jane Seymour and Katherine Parr were Henry VIII's lawful queens consort. The Roman Catholic Church, however, believes that Katherine of Aragon was Henry VIII's lawful queen consort too, along with Jane Seymour and Katherine Parr.

I am aware that all historians refer to Anne Boleyn as Queen of England from 1533 until 1536, but one must remember that all historians acknowledge Elizabeth I's illegitimacy (she herself did and, unlike her sister Mary I, she never retroactively proclaimed her parents' marriage valid). So, the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of England (along with Henry VIII and Elizabeth I) agree that Anne Boleyn was never Henry's lawfully wedded wife.

Oh, I've just came across Alison Weir's reference to Henry VIII's funeral procession. She says that banners were carried in the procession, but that only Jane Seymour and Katherine Parr were represented. Francis Lancelott, who wrote in 1859, says that Henry VIII chose to acknowledge only Jane Seymour and Katherine Parr as his wives. So, although Henry VIII said "I do" six times, he was lawfully married only twice

 

[Al_bina]

Thanks for the information!
The irony of the whole situation is that the illegitimate child, Elizabeth I, turned England into a European superpower to be reckoned with.

 

[kimebear]

You could also argue that Henry, as king, made the law and therefore could manipulate them at his own will. As he considered each his wife and Queen at the time, they were therefore his lawful wives at one point.

The only wife I could actually see holding in question is Anne of Cleves. By all accounts, the marriage was never consumated. This was a hardcore requirement at the time. Remember that the claim of a consumated marriage between Catherine and Arthur was the grounds that Henry sought the annulment for in the first place.

 

[Kotroman]

You could also argue that Henry, as king, made the law and therefore could manipulate them at his own will. As he considered each his wife and Queen at the time, they were therefore his lawful wives at one point.

Actually, the Parliament of England made the law. Each of Henry's wives was considered his lawful wife at one point, but marriages of the four women were proclaimed never-existing by the same Church which blessed these "marriages". So, in the end, Jane Seymour and Katherine Parr are Henry's only undisputable wives.

Now when I think about it, Katherine of Aragon's marriage to Henry VIII was retroactively validated by her daughter Mary I and I am not sure whether Elizabeth I repealed her half-sister's act.

The only wife I could actually see holding in question is Anne of Cleves. By all accounts, the marriage was never consumated. This was a hardcore requirement at the time. Remember that the claim of a consumated marriage between Catherine and Arthur was the grounds that Henry sought the annulment for in the first place.

Anne Boleyn's marriage is even more questionable than Anne of Cleves's marriage - Anne Boleyn was never considered Henry's lawful wife by the Roman Catholic Church and the only church that recognized her as Henry's wife proclaimed her marriage null and void in May 1536. Furthermore, Anne Boleyn's daughter never claimed that she was legitimate.

 

[Menarue]

Queen Elizabeth I, had a strange childhood, she was The Princess Elizabeth, The Lady Elizabeth, and then Queen. She was very lucky to survive and had one terrifying experience of being a prisoner in the Tower of London. She may not have proclaimed that she was legitimate but I would bet anything that no one in those times would have told her she wasn´t.

 

[iowabelle]

I have wondered whether Anne of Cleves might have been a lesbian. We all know that her relationship with Henry was unsuccessful, although I think he was largely to blame for that given his state of health.

But it seems rather odd that there were never any rumors of men around Anne (contrast that with the widowed queen Catherine Parr), and Tudor men were not picky, even if she was an unattractive woman. IMO Anne would have made a wonderful paramour for a Tudor man, given that Henry left her pretty well off. On the other hand, an unconventional relationship with a woman might have been easily concealed, considering that it was normal for a high-ranking lady to have attendants.

And it seems odd that Anne just disappears from history, with very little comment.

Just some ideas that have occurred to me.

 

[Russophile]

Anne of Cleves a lesbian??

Some fictional books have thrown that out there. I have not seen any historical biographies that prove it, however. Interesting concept.

 

[Emeralds and Opals]

Handwriting reveals Henry VIII’s feminine side


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/4996880/Henry-VIII-emotionally-dependent-on-women.html

"Henry VIII 'emotionally dependent on women.' "

 

[Grace Angel]

I think Anne of Cleves was just put off marriage by Henry VIII. The whole sitiuation must have at first confused her, she was from a foreign country and certainly not experienced with men, I think she was naive and not real sophisticated. That's one reason Henry didn't like her, he prefered more sophisicated, worldly women ( although not sexually experienced, at least in cases like Catharine Howard). Anne came from a provincial court and she likely just wanted peace and quiet and when she got it after the whole mess of her marriage to Henry, she likely assumed it was best. Her life could have been worse. She was wise enough not to want more. Any marriage she made could have caused trouble, like Katharine Parr's post Henry marriage to Edward's uncle. Nobody ever tried to match her up with anyone, either ( after Henry) maybe if they had, she would have gone along. It's hard to know.

 

[cmkrcwi]

Regarding that Daily Telegraph article, someone needs to check their history. Henry VIII's father died when he was around 18. It was his mother who died when he was 11.

 

[iowabelle]

Handwriting reveals Henry VIII’s feminine side


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/4996880/Henry-VIII-emotionally-dependent-on-women.html

"Henry VIII 'emotionally dependent on women.' "

Read my recap in our blog!

 

[iowabelle]

About Anne of C. I think she liked the attention she received as Queen, but she certainly wanted to keep her head (although I think Henry would have hesitated to behead a foreign princess, it was only the English brides who received that treatment!) rather than fight to preserve her position. And I think her early life in Cleves probably wasn't so pleasant; at least as the "King's Sister" she received a decent income, places to live and a certain amount of independence. Henry wasn't likely to spend too much time worrying about her, so long as she didn't cause problems for him on the diplomatic front.

IMO she was probably an underestimated lady.

 

[Grace Angel]

Defintely, and maybe she felt marrying someone else would cause her issues with him on the diplomatic front so she never pursued it. I think we do understimate her, but perhaps don't know the whole story about her well enough to correctly estimate her.

 

[iowabelle]

On the possibility of Anne marrying again... I think Henry probably did enough damage to her reputation to make it unlikely that a foreign prince would want her.

I agree about the lack of information about her, which I find rather intriguing. But she doesn't have a reputation for academic interests unlike Anne B., Katherine Parr or even Catherine of Aragon, so she probably wasn't an intellectual. I wonder what she spent her time doing...

 

[Al_bina]

I am not sure why there is a lack of information about Anne of Cleves, but I would say that she was a clever pragmatic lady. She accurately weighed pros/cons of her situation and made an optimal decision that would benefit her directly. Income, housing, and relative freedom to enjoy life were much better than lock-up in a monastery.

 

[Grace Angel]

No, I doubt she was intellectual. Needle work and sewing, embroidery were commonly done by upperclass women back then. Mary, Queen of Scots did alot of embroidery in her captivity, I think. I don't know that I've ever heard of any embroidery that Anne of Cleves did though. She wasn't the type to translate books in her spare time like Elizabeth I or Katharine Parr I think did. I've never heard of her doing that anyway.

 

[Al_bina]

Was there a particular need for Anne of Cleves to be intellectual as other wives were? As far as I can see, she was intelligent enough to salvage what she could from her not-so-perfect situation. Additionally, execution was not the only way to get rid of a wife. Various fatal accidents such as fall from horse/staircase or some serious disease with the help of poison would have helped Henry VIII to be free again.

 

[iowabelle]

Well, as we can all see, being brainy wasn't an advantage for Anne B., and it almost got Katherine Parr to the scaffold. So I'm not slamming Anne at all, I think she did very well for herself considering the bad circumstances.

I'm just very curious about her. For example, now if a woman doesn't read, do volunteer work, exercise or have various hobbies, she might just like to watch TV or visit with friends, activities that wouldn't necessarily leave a trace. Given that the Tudors didn't have the TV, I'd just like to know how she spent her time.

 

[Russophile]

Given that the Tudors didn't have the TV, I'd just like to know how she spent her time.

Speaking of Tudors on TV, have they gotten that far yet? Wonder what they would say about it. . .

 

[iowabelle]

Maybe I ought to suggest it to them a la Desperate Housewives??

I've heard such bad things about the Tudors series.

 

[Grace Angel]

Anne of Cleves seems to have had practical intelligence as opposed to intellectual intelligence. I'm not sure what she spent her time doing- embroidery, needlework maybe? I'm not sure. Catharine of Aragon was very religious, so was Katharine Parr (in very different ways). But to my knowledge Anne wasn't the type to read religious works or be very interested in religion (besides of which it could be a very dangerous interest in Henry VIII's England, and it almost got Katharine Parr in trouble).