Henry VIII (1491-1547) and Wives


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I agree. If you are dying - why would you damn your soul by confessing something that is not true? I think she had enough dignity to do what was right at the hour of her death. Cranmer insisted that she was innocent to the end. With Cromwell, didn't they have a spat - which added to his involvement with the King's wishes to "get rid of her?"
 
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Lady Meg--

I am not sure about Cromwell but Anne definitely did not like Wolsey, Cranmer's predecessor. Anne blamed Wolsey for destroying her chance to marry a true love and after she became Henry's mistress and had influence with the King, Anne was believed by many to be part of the group which destroyed Wolsey.
 
I thought Anne didn't become his "mistress" - she waited - I knew of her dislike of Wolsey. She wanted to marry someone else, yes, and when she caught Henry's eye, he made Wolsey investigate and dissolve her engagement with another man... Henry Percy? Was that him?
 
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Yes it was Harry Percy. The Cardinal sent him to marry Margaret Talbot, the daughter of the Earl of Shrewsbury. A failure from the start, I think Percy later had a nervous breakdown if memory serves me.
Anne and Cromwell got along famously until she started questioning his motives when the monasteries were being dissolved. Then, he turned into a snake and struck.
 
Anne kept Henry at arm's length for some time but eventually became his mistress. Most historians agree that Anne became pregnant with Elizabeth before Henry and Anne married, thereby precipitating his break with Rome and advancing the cause of Protestantism in England because Henry wanted his child to be legitimate at birth.
 
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I really doubt Anne had an affair with her brother. Anyone who commits incest has serious mental issues and Anne was not like that. If she was, she would not have capture Henry VIII's attention and become his Queen.
 
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I doubt it too, but then again almost all of the accusations against her were false. Besides I think that the person who accused her of incest was indeed clever for one reason: it ws really difficult to prove that it was a false accuse. I mean her brother had of course free access at her rooms at any time and they would often stay completely alone - naturally since they were siblings. But then , if no one was present, how could she prove that nothing so horrible ever happened? :sad:
 
"The Other Boleyn Girl", the film and the book, were horrible, in representing incest. As if Anne, who was always intelligent, would do such an idiotic thing. It's true that she was foolish in a lot of areas~her temper, her haughtiness, her treatment of Lady Mary. I also believe Henry probably had issues with impotence, but never, never could I imagine Anne having intercourse with her brother or any other man while she was queen.
 
Anne kept Henry at arm's length for some time but eventually became his mistress. Most historians agree that Anne became pregnant with Elizabeth before Henry and Anne married, thereby precipitating his break with Rome and advancing the cause of Protestantism in England because Henry wanted his child to be legitimate at birth.
Yeah yeah... that I knew - but the deal had been made.. she was to be his wife. I forgot about Elizabeth, oops.

I HATED "The Other Boleyn Girl" with Natalie Portman and the other one that was made for BBC. Both based off the book - it's just a false representation of Anne. Anyone who watches it and does not "know" any better about Anne probably gets the notion that she did indeed have an affair with her brother. There were so many things written about her that were negative. You have the extra finger, a huge mole, she is a witch, etc. I doubt there was much of anything written about her that was actually true and complimentary of her. If anyone knows of anything let me know. I would love to read it. The books on her written within the last few centuries just seem objective - some don't even have an opinion, they just try to state the facts as plainly as possible, which I like.
 
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But whose 'facts' do they state? What is the perspective of the authors' and what is their motive for writing the facts that they choose to include and leave out?
History is not just a simple accumulation of facts. What is included in that list is one thing but what has been left out.
Then there is the explanation of the cause and effect and that is always going to be the author's opinion/interpretation.

I am no fan of Anne Boleyn mainly due to having a lecturer at uni who had done his Ph.D. thesis on her and his opinion, after reading and researching thousands of documents from the 1520s and 1530s was that she mightn't have been as bad as portrayed by the King but she was no pure lady either. He is of the opinion that she is being whitewashed now rather than seen for what she was - a scheming woman who got what she wanted, was unable to satisfy the King or fulfil her own ambitions and took actions to bring that about and was caught out so the King took the only action he could - execution. We did an entire semester on Henry and his wives with this guy and his views obviously affect the way I see the wives and Henry and Anne was the most scheming and the least likeable of any of them (did she commit adultery - I believe she did and nothing will convince my otherwise based on the research I have done, had to do at uni and the opinion of a man who went on to become a Professor of History based on his work on the Tudor period.)
 
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Iluvbertie...so based on this research...who did Anne cheat on Henry with?

I have never believe that she had an affair with her brother, I've always thought he was gay...I might have read that somewhere as well. Can't recall the source.

I have always thought the depiction of Anne as a schemer was well deserved. I am not thinking of the mole or Anne as a witch etc basically she was not allowed to marry her true love, Harry Percy and so didn't care after that.

I think she (and her family) totally knew what they were doing whenthey schemed to get her into Henry's good graces. Anne was the best manipulator there was by trying to hold out for marriage. She had seen what happened to her sister and other women (i.e. Blessie Blount). She was NOT trying to be the mother of the king's latest bastard. Its cruel but there you go. Let's face it....women prior to Anne for years had been the King's mistress (I am talking about more than Henry, etc.) and their families had gained presitge and money.

Anne's mistake was thinking that she was smarter and cunnier than Henry. If she had married any other King she would have gotten married, produce a daughter or two and then a son and lived an uneventful life. Her mistake that her Henry was Henry VIII and not the V, or VI.

I also think Karma is applicable here.....she was not very nice to either Catherine of Aragon or Mary. How you can have issues with your husband's wife is something I have never understood (now and then). Other women don't truly know the relationship between a man and a wife. And she treated (and encouraged Henry) to treat Mary horribly. This treatment totally scarred Mary for later life.
 
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...did she commit adultery - I believe she did and nothing will convince my otherwise based on the research I have done, had to do at uni and the opinion of a man who went on to become a Professor of History based on his work on the Tudor period.
Um, it was a fictional book - exactly - who's facts was she basing the book on because she certainly was not there.
Once you are put through a whole semester/schooled/talked to about a person's opinion of Anne - I'm sure you would change your opinion.
This is one guy and his view on Anne, though. Was she really that scheming? I wouldn't know except for what I have read and so far it seems as if she was merely a pawn playing a role, but as she became aware of her power, yes, she did become more involved in her own destiny. We really won't know for sure because there is no correct theory written about her I believe.
Iluvbertie...so based on this research...who did Anne cheat on Henry with?
Well done!
 
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I am re-reading a biography of Henry VIII and it strikes me again that while many consider him to be a great ruler, it also appears that he was very cruel and caused the death of many people based on their lineage, their religious beliefs (Catholic and Protestant), their wealth, etc. It makes me wonder if he was just a cruel tyrant or if the head injury he suffered during the joust caused these wild mood swings or was it due to the pain of his leg ulcer? He must have been in constant pain and this was probably aggravated by his weight gain in middle age.
 
The problem with Anne is that most people are on one side of the fence or the other.. there is not enough middle ground with her, and I think there should be.

Was she a pawn? Yes. Was she also a schemer? Yes.

Anne's position was not only difficult but treacherous. Here was a woman of good family and education, with high connections, in an age where every promotion and position at court was decided by the king. Indeed, everyone's lives and fortunes were at stake and at the mercy of his whim.

Becoming the king's mistress was one thing.. becoming his wife was quite another.. and a feat that could not have been achieved without planning and intelligence - on the part of Anne herself and her family, who were her advisors as well as her handlers.

Of course the Howards wanted her to succeed where Mary had failed, to elevate their position and bring them closer to the throne, which was the font of all power in England. Unlike Mary, Anne was calculating and just as cunning as her Howard relatives.. and she had the advantage of having lived in the French Court, which was considered the most sophisticated realm in Europe at that time.

But to some degree, Anne was a pawn of her family, and was at the mercy of her father and her Howard uncles. Women were chattel. They had no power of their own to speak of, and were used and bartered into marriages without consideration of their own feelings or desires. If Anne really loved Henry Percy, then there is your example.

No one today can really say what her personal feelings were for Henry VIII. I do believe there was at least a great passion between them, but who can say if either of them felt true love?

There is no doubt that she did weald some power of her own over Henry himself. Anne was the only one of his wives that spoke to him with impunity. Even Catherine of Aragon was circumspect of his authority, and every wife that followed Anne was kept firmly in her place as consort. Not only is this evidence of her intelligence, but it's also an indicator of Henry's strong feelings for her.. to allow her to be the closest to his equal as any woman could expect to be.

She certainly was cunning enough to keep him dangling for six years.. holding out for marriage, and reforming the entire English religion in the process!

But even the reformers considered incest taboo, and I have never believed that either Anne or George would have considered such a thing, even for the sake of giving Henry a son.. at best they would have only had a 50/50 chance of success anyway.. and regardless of this, they had to be aware of the possible consequences of such a liasion (meaning deformities and birth defects).. and what good would it do to give Henry such a son? Absolutely none.

I also think that both Henry and Anne relished and enjoyed the chase and the game of their courtship. After they were married, however, Anne became the jealous wife while Henry expected her to be finally satisfied. He expected to be satisfied, too, with a male heir to the throne.

Had she provided that son, Henry would have remained married to her despite the state of their private relationship.. and today we would have an entirely different view of Anne Boleyn.
 
I completely agree. Had she "Closed her eyes as her betters had done", perhaps Henry would have tolerated her better.
 
I completely agree. Had she "Closed her eyes as her betters had done", perhaps Henry would have tolerated her better.
Were it me, I would have led him a merry chase whist married. Keep that satyr's interest! HA!
 
About Anne Boleyn's and Henry's chances of a long lasting marriage - does anyone think that even if Anne had born a son he would still have got rid of her to marry another woman? Because I do. Of course I doubt that he would execute the mother of the Prince Of Wales, but lets face it, its not like that marriage was a success. If Anne had bore a son, Henry would of course been delighted and that would somehow secure her position as Queen for a while. Let' s not forget however that Anne had many enemies, a bunch of people conspiring to bring down her and the Boleyn/Howard clan and that there was a serious class between her and Henry, who had an appetite for women his whole life . So, I believe that after a few years, another another would appeal on the King and he , as the Head of the Church of England, would grant himself a divorce with Queen Anne, keeping his son legitimate however, and Anne would be convieniently exiled to a remote estate in the country, making Henry's life a lot easier.
 
I think he may have sent her away from Court if she became too much for him to handle.. but I don't think he would divorce the mother of his son (or sons). Keeping in mind that the question of the Tudor dynasty's legitimacy had existed since his father took the throne, I doubt he would allow anything to cast a shadow of illegitimacy over his son and heir.. even an irksome wife.

Yes, he was the king, and could basically do what he wanted, but he would still need a valid reason for divorce, i.e. consanguinity (for which he already had a dispensation to marry Anne), a pre-contract of marriage (which may have been valid in Anne's case, but would render his son illegitimate), non-consummation (not an option), adultery or in his case, treason.
 
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Um, it was a fictional book - exactly - who's facts was she basing the book on because she certainly was not there.
Once you are put through a whole semester/schooled/talked to about a person's opinion of Anne - I'm sure you would change your opinion.
This is one guy and his view on Anne, though. Was she really that scheming? I wouldn't know except for what I have read and so far it seems as if she was merely a pawn playing a role, but as she became aware of her power, yes, she did become more involved in her own destiny. We really won't know for sure because there is no correct theory written about her I believe.


I have done more than one semester of study on Henry VIII and his wives (actually two years in total between my BA and MA and with different experts as my lecturers/tutors etc.) I have not changed my mind. I do believe that she was an adulteress and thus a traitor (as the wife of the King or Heir to the throne to sleep with any man other than her husband makes her a traitor - along with the man she slept with).

History is a great subject because there are so many interpretations and so few actual facts after you leave primary school - fact she married Henry, had a child and died. Everything else is interpretation based on the material we have available and my opinion based on my reading and evaluation of the people who have written about her is that she was a scheming adulteress who got her just deserts - execution.
 
I have done more than one semester of study on Henry VIII and his wives (actually two years in total between my BA and MA and with different experts as my lecturers/tutors etc.) I have not changed my mind. I do believe that she was an adulteress and thus a traitor (as the wife of the King or Heir to the throne to sleep with any man other than her husband makes her a traitor - along with the man she slept with).

History is a great subject because there are so many interpretations and so few actual facts after you leave primary school - fact she married Henry, had a child and died. Everything else is interpretation based on the material we have available and my opinion based on my reading and evaluation of the people who have written about her is that she was a scheming adulteress who got her just deserts - execution.

I seriously question that Anne was an adulteress or slept with anyone other than Henry. If she was a schemer, she certainly had the brains to match.. and it was no secret that for the wife of the King to commit adultery was treason.. and the penalty for treason was death.

Why would an intelligent woman, who had finally reached the pinnacle of power after six long years, forsake all she had achieved for one or two nights of pleasure with someone else? In hopes of having a son that she could pawn off as the heir? I find that unlikely in the extreme, especially considering that as queen she had no privacy to speak of.. even when she went to the privy, her ladies-in-waiting knew of it.

Several historians agree that the charges against her and subsequent trial was a farce. Even the great men sitting in judgment of her knew the outcome Henry expected.. and they complied with their guilty verdict and sentence of death.

And the fact is, that even though the Church of England was established, it was politically expedient for Henry to have her executed.. to mend relations with the Catholic powers on the continent (i.e. France and Spain).

With the death of Catherine of Aragon, the Church of Rome considered him a widower.. free to marry again. They never recognized Henry's marriage to Anne as legitimate.. and with her gone, he could marry Jane Seymour with a clean slate and at the same time, ease his political relations in Europe.
 
I agree. Anne Boleyn was many things~erratic, irrational, hot tempered and impulsive~but she was never a fool. She made too many enemies who eventually helped bring her down. She was the Queen. When was she completely alone?
 
I seriously question that Anne was an adulteress or slept with anyone other than Henry.

I should qualify this statement to say.. after they were married.

It is quite possible that she was not a virgin when she married the king, considering her pre-contract with Henry Percy and her apparent love for him. I've read some accounts that hint or suggest that Anne was not a virgin when she became queen. Of course, this is something we can never know for sure..
 
I seriously question that Anne was an adulteress or slept with anyone other than Henry...
You are of course entitled to your opinion and I will stick with mine - that she was a adulteress who paid the penalty for being caught out at a time when her husband was looking elsewhere - a great reason to cheat to try to win him back with a new pregnancy that might result in a son.
 
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Henry's Letter to Anne....

I have done more than one semester of study on Henry VIII and his wives...
Honestly I don't think it matters how many degrees you have. I love how people on these forums think that posting your credentials will give you more credit. LOL! :lol:

I believe I have said this before, there are people on different sides of the "argument". We see this through out History. The many books that have been written about her, etc. I guess I just take offense to it because I am fascinated by her. Fascinated by how one woman could transform a country. The power she held over the King. Women - I'm a Women's Studies minor, so I find these things intriguing.

I just found some interesting information, though. I'm sure other people, especially those who have had access to London's scene of Henry's 500th Anniversary, have already seen this, but I didn't have the opportunity to go to London's library while I was there. Anyway, a letter from Henry to Anne is on display. Apparently the Vatican held this letter as proof against the King in his "divorce" of KOA. Does anyone know how long this letter was with held? Is it something new that has just surfaced recently?

I know how much people dislike the series "The Tudors" on here, but this is the video I watched which revealed the letter.

Showtime Official Site :: Video :: Series
 
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She certainly was cunning enough to keep him dangling for six years.. holding out for marriage, and reforming the entire English religion in the process!
This is exactly why I am intrigued. Thank you. I really need to start reading the Ives book now. ;)
 
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I know that letter is in the Vatican but I'm unclear on its contents.
 
Um, it was a fictional book - exactly - who's facts was she basing the book on because she certainly was not there.
Once you are put through a whole semester/schooled/talked to about a person's opinion of Anne - I'm sure you would change your opinion...
Honestly I don't think it matters how many degrees you have. I love how people on these forums think that posting your credentials will give you more credit. LOL!
The only reason I mentioned my credentials (or at least some of them) is that you told me that ‘once you (you were responding to my post so I assume that the you you were talking to was me) are put through a whole semester/schooled/talked to about a person’s opinion of Anne – I’m sure you would change your opinion’ so I decided to show you that that is incorrect – I have studied Anne and the Tudor’s not for a whole semester but over two years at both the basic undergraduate level and at postgraduate level and I haven’t changed my opinion – despite your statement that I would if I studied her for one semester.

I will not change my opinion that she was an adulteress and thus a traitor and suffered the penalty accordingly.

She was a complete schemer and did hope that by having a son (regardless of who the father was) she would be able to keep her position. Had she conceived a son with any man she would have been safe and she knew it.

That is my opinion based on more than ‘a whole semester’ which is all you say I need to have studied her to change my mind.

You are entitled to your opinion based on your research, the classes you have taken, the lecturers you have had and their research into the topic and so am I based on my research, the classes I have attended and the lecturers I have had and their research.

The Tudors have been a period of time about which I have been fascinated since my earliest years and I have spend a lot of uni time and private time researching them - for fun. I will not be changing my mind.
 
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I actually meant it the other way around, giving your professor credit. You must have taken it incorrectly - let me re-phrase 'After a semester of a person hammering their opinion into your head about Anne Boleyn, some people might change their views of her.' You obviously did due to this person. Make sense?

I also have spent a lot of time researching and traveling for pure fun because I love the Tudor era and other personal reasons. Like I said - which you have restated for the millionth time, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
 
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That makes sense.
However, I have had more than one lecturer and yes the first was the one that convinced me due to his research on this matter for his Ph.D, but I have had more than one lecturer from different unis and all have had the same idea (by the way he didn't change my opinion only confirmed it as that was the opinion I had formed in my teens from reading stuff).
 
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Iluvbertie,

Do you think Henry VIII was unusually cruel for his time (by this, I mean the execution of a large number of nobles, ostensibly for deviation from Henry's view on religion, and others were killed or imprisoned because of their lineage) or do you believe this "take no prisoner alive" attitude made him an efficient monarch? I have been re-reading Jasper Ridley's Henry VIII: The Politics of Tyranny and would appreciate your opinion.
 
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