The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #161  
Old 02-16-2009, 04:47 PM
Al_bina's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: City, Kazakhstan
Posts: 5,604
Thanks for the information!
The irony of the whole situation is that the illegitimate child, Elizabeth I, turned England into a European superpower to be reckoned with.
__________________

__________________
"I never did mind about the little things" Amanda, "Point of No Return"
Reply With Quote
  #162  
Old 02-16-2009, 05:28 PM
kimebear's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Albany, United States
Posts: 1,382
You could also argue that Henry, as king, made the law and therefore could manipulate them at his own will. As he considered each his wife and Queen at the time, they were therefore his lawful wives at one point.

The only wife I could actually see holding in question is Anne of Cleves. By all accounts, the marriage was never consumated. This was a hardcore requirement at the time. Remember that the claim of a consumated marriage between Catherine and Arthur was the grounds that Henry sought the annulment for in the first place.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #163  
Old 02-16-2009, 06:23 PM
Kotroman's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: -, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Posts: 463
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimebear View Post
You could also argue that Henry, as king, made the law and therefore could manipulate them at his own will. As he considered each his wife and Queen at the time, they were therefore his lawful wives at one point.
Actually, the Parliament of England made the law. Each of Henry's wives was considered his lawful wife at one point, but marriages of the four women were proclaimed never-existing by the same Church which blessed these "marriages". So, in the end, Jane Seymour and Katherine Parr are Henry's only undisputable wives.

Now when I think about it, Katherine of Aragon's marriage to Henry VIII was retroactively validated by her daughter Mary I and I am not sure whether Elizabeth I repealed her half-sister's act.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimebear View Post
The only wife I could actually see holding in question is Anne of Cleves. By all accounts, the marriage was never consumated. This was a hardcore requirement at the time. Remember that the claim of a consumated marriage between Catherine and Arthur was the grounds that Henry sought the annulment for in the first place.
Anne Boleyn's marriage is even more questionable than Anne of Cleves's marriage - Anne Boleyn was never considered Henry's lawful wife by the Roman Catholic Church and the only church that recognized her as Henry's wife proclaimed her marriage null and void in May 1536. Furthermore, Anne Boleyn's daughter never claimed that she was legitimate.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #164  
Old 02-17-2009, 04:08 AM
Menarue's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Cascais, Portugal
Posts: 2,155
Queen Elizabeth I, had a strange childhood, she was The Princess Elizabeth, The Lady Elizabeth, and then Queen. She was very lucky to survive and had one terrifying experience of being a prisoner in the Tower of London. She may not have proclaimed that she was legitimate but I would bet anything that no one in those times would have told her she wasn´t.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #165  
Old 02-17-2009, 06:51 PM
iowabelle's Avatar
Royal Highness
Royal Blogger, TRF Author
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Des Moines, United States
Posts: 2,405
I have wondered whether Anne of Cleves might have been a lesbian. We all know that her relationship with Henry was unsuccessful, although I think he was largely to blame for that given his state of health.

But it seems rather odd that there were never any rumors of men around Anne (contrast that with the widowed queen Catherine Parr), and Tudor men were not picky, even if she was an unattractive woman. IMO Anne would have made a wonderful paramour for a Tudor man, given that Henry left her pretty well off. On the other hand, an unconventional relationship with a woman might have been easily concealed, considering that it was normal for a high-ranking lady to have attendants.

And it seems odd that Anne just disappears from history, with very little comment.

Just some ideas that have occurred to me.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #166  
Old 02-18-2009, 10:00 PM
Russophile's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Portland, United States
Posts: 4,077
Anne of Cleves a lesbian??

Some fictional books have thrown that out there. I have not seen any historical biographies that prove it, however. Interesting concept.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #167  
Old 03-15-2009, 06:56 AM
Emeralds and Opals's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: *****, United States
Posts: 582
Handwriting reveals Henry VIII’s feminine side


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-on-women.html

"Henry VIII 'emotionally dependent on women.' "
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #168  
Old 03-18-2009, 12:54 PM
Grace Angel's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Iowa, United States
Posts: 462
I think Anne of Cleves was just put off marriage by Henry VIII. The whole sitiuation must have at first confused her, she was from a foreign country and certainly not experienced with men, I think she was naive and not real sophisticated. That's one reason Henry didn't like her, he prefered more sophisicated, worldly women ( although not sexually experienced, at least in cases like Catharine Howard). Anne came from a provincial court and she likely just wanted peace and quiet and when she got it after the whole mess of her marriage to Henry, she likely assumed it was best. Her life could have been worse. She was wise enough not to want more. Any marriage she made could have caused trouble, like Katharine Parr's post Henry marriage to Edward's uncle. Nobody ever tried to match her up with anyone, either ( after Henry) maybe if they had, she would have gone along. It's hard to know.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #169  
Old 03-18-2009, 08:44 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Richland Center, United States
Posts: 108
Regarding that Daily Telegraph article, someone needs to check their history. Henry VIII's father died when he was around 18. It was his mother who died when he was 11.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #170  
Old 03-19-2009, 03:13 PM
iowabelle's Avatar
Royal Highness
Royal Blogger, TRF Author
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Des Moines, United States
Posts: 2,405
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emeralds and Opals View Post
Read my recap in our blog!
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #171  
Old 03-19-2009, 03:18 PM
iowabelle's Avatar
Royal Highness
Royal Blogger, TRF Author
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Des Moines, United States
Posts: 2,405
About Anne of C. I think she liked the attention she received as Queen, but she certainly wanted to keep her head (although I think Henry would have hesitated to behead a foreign princess, it was only the English brides who received that treatment!) rather than fight to preserve her position. And I think her early life in Cleves probably wasn't so pleasant; at least as the "King's Sister" she received a decent income, places to live and a certain amount of independence. Henry wasn't likely to spend too much time worrying about her, so long as she didn't cause problems for him on the diplomatic front.

IMO she was probably an underestimated lady.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #172  
Old 03-19-2009, 03:32 PM
Grace Angel's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Iowa, United States
Posts: 462
Defintely, and maybe she felt marrying someone else would cause her issues with him on the diplomatic front so she never pursued it. I think we do understimate her, but perhaps don't know the whole story about her well enough to correctly estimate her.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #173  
Old 03-19-2009, 03:46 PM
iowabelle's Avatar
Royal Highness
Royal Blogger, TRF Author
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Des Moines, United States
Posts: 2,405
On the possibility of Anne marrying again... I think Henry probably did enough damage to her reputation to make it unlikely that a foreign prince would want her.

I agree about the lack of information about her, which I find rather intriguing. But she doesn't have a reputation for academic interests unlike Anne B., Katherine Parr or even Catherine of Aragon, so she probably wasn't an intellectual. I wonder what she spent her time doing...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #174  
Old 03-19-2009, 03:54 PM
Al_bina's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: City, Kazakhstan
Posts: 5,604
I am not sure why there is a lack of information about Anne of Cleves, but I would say that she was a clever pragmatic lady. She accurately weighed pros/cons of her situation and made an optimal decision that would benefit her directly. Income, housing, and relative freedom to enjoy life were much better than lock-up in a monastery.
__________________
"I never did mind about the little things" Amanda, "Point of No Return"
Reply With Quote
  #175  
Old 03-19-2009, 03:56 PM
Grace Angel's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Iowa, United States
Posts: 462
No, I doubt she was intellectual. Needle work and sewing, embroidery were commonly done by upperclass women back then. Mary, Queen of Scots did alot of embroidery in her captivity, I think. I don't know that I've ever heard of any embroidery that Anne of Cleves did though. She wasn't the type to translate books in her spare time like Elizabeth I or Katharine Parr I think did. I've never heard of her doing that anyway.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #176  
Old 03-19-2009, 04:28 PM
Al_bina's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: City, Kazakhstan
Posts: 5,604
Was there a particular need for Anne of Cleves to be intellectual as other wives were? As far as I can see, she was intelligent enough to salvage what she could from her not-so-perfect situation. Additionally, execution was not the only way to get rid of a wife. Various fatal accidents such as fall from horse/staircase or some serious disease with the help of poison would have helped Henry VIII to be free again.
__________________
"I never did mind about the little things" Amanda, "Point of No Return"
Reply With Quote
  #177  
Old 03-19-2009, 04:37 PM
iowabelle's Avatar
Royal Highness
Royal Blogger, TRF Author
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Des Moines, United States
Posts: 2,405
Well, as we can all see, being brainy wasn't an advantage for Anne B., and it almost got Katherine Parr to the scaffold. So I'm not slamming Anne at all, I think she did very well for herself considering the bad circumstances.

I'm just very curious about her. For example, now if a woman doesn't read, do volunteer work, exercise or have various hobbies, she might just like to watch TV or visit with friends, activities that wouldn't necessarily leave a trace. Given that the Tudors didn't have the TV, I'd just like to know how she spent her time.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #178  
Old 03-19-2009, 04:41 PM
Russophile's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Portland, United States
Posts: 4,077
Quote:
Originally Posted by iowabelle View Post
Given that the Tudors didn't have the TV, I'd just like to know how she spent her time.
Speaking of Tudors on TV, have they gotten that far yet? Wonder what they would say about it. . .
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #179  
Old 03-19-2009, 05:41 PM
iowabelle's Avatar
Royal Highness
Royal Blogger, TRF Author
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Des Moines, United States
Posts: 2,405
Maybe I ought to suggest it to them a la Desperate Housewives??

I've heard such bad things about the Tudors series.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #180  
Old 03-19-2009, 09:35 PM
Grace Angel's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Iowa, United States
Posts: 462
Anne of Cleves seems to have had practical intelligence as opposed to intellectual intelligence. I'm not sure what she spent her time doing- embroidery, needlework maybe? I'm not sure. Catharine of Aragon was very religious, so was Katharine Parr (in very different ways). But to my knowledge Anne wasn't the type to read religious works or be very interested in religion (besides of which it could be a very dangerous interest in Henry VIII's England, and it almost got Katharine Parr in trouble).
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
anne boleyn, anne of cleves, biography, british history, catherine howard, catherine of aragon, catherine parr, catholicism, church of england, elizabeth i, henry viii, jane seymour, pope, queen consort, syphilis, tudor


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A Potential Wife for Prince Harry Zonk Prince Harry and Prince William 1807 08-25-2014 03:47 AM
Illegitimate Offspring of King Henry I (1068-1135) CarolinaLandgrave British Royal History 23 07-18-2014 05:01 PM
Who is your favourite of Henry VIII's wives? lexi4 British Royal History 287 07-03-2014 12:51 AM
Arthur, Prince of Wales, brother of Henry VIII (1486-1502) iowabelle British Royal History 23 11-24-2011 09:02 PM
"Six Wives: The Queens of Henry VIII" by David Starkey (2003) ysbel Royal Library 12 11-19-2011 03:44 PM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
birth bourbon-parma charlene chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events fashion grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta leonor infanta sofia jordan king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg olympic games ottoman picture of the month pom prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince felipe prince floris prince maurits prince pieter-christiaan princess princess aimee princess alexia (2005 -) princess anita princess ariane princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess claire princess laurentien princess letizia princess mabel princess madeleine princess margriet princess marilene princess mary princess of asturias queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit wedding william winter olympics 2014



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:43 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]