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  #741  
Old 07-03-2015, 09:53 PM
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I agree that executing a friend who was most likely innocent demonstrates Henry's complete lack of conscience. I tend to think that Henry VIII was a sociopath. The only reason he displayed any regret was when he missed the administrative skills of the person he purged (Wolsey and Cromwell) or when he worried that he may end up in hell.


I found the article interesting, but I am not sure agree with the conclusion. I don't see why killing Anne will a sword would have cemented Henry's association with the Camelot legend. To me, it would make more sense if Anne had been sentenced to burn at the stake.


Curryong is right, Anne Boleyn's fate was decided before her trial. Some people argue that George Boleyn would have escaped if he hadn't publicly stated that Henry was impotent, but I doubt that. I think Anne and her alleged lovers were doomed before they were arrested. The only surprise was that Wyatt--who probably had an intimate relationship with Anne--escaped with his life.
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  #742  
Old 07-03-2015, 10:24 PM
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Spot on. He was very definitely a sociopath. He never expressed any sentimentality or regret for women or men he had once deeply loved then destroyed...Catherine of Aragon, Anne Boleyn, Cardinal Wolsey,Thomas More, Cromwell, Catherine Howard...the list is long.

One of the most sickening and disturbing executions of his reign was that of Margaret Pole, Countess of Salisbury. She had been Catherine of Aragon's intimate friend and the governess of his own daughter Mary. She was an elderly woman when she was butchered on Tower Green for no other reason than Henry wanted revenge against her son Reginald.

One thing I've often wondered was how far Henry was willing to go against Mary if she'd continued to defy him. Would he have actually approved the ultimate punishment for his own flesh and blood?

I like to think NO...but his narcissism and cruelty make me wonder.
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  #743  
Old 07-03-2015, 10:34 PM
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To try and understand Harry you have to go back and look at his father, how he came to the throne and the desperate need to keep it ...the paranoia and always looking over the shoulder and the desperate need for heirs.

Then you have Harry and he's surrounded by claimants to the throne should he fail and he can't get a living (legitimate) heir. Then it became a power struggle fed by other men (and women) with agenda, with the Church over his marital situation. Poor Catherine of Aragon.

It's pretty complex.



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  #744  
Old 07-04-2015, 12:03 AM
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As well as Henry VIII's father however, I think he inherited much of his maternal grandfather's physique and persona. There was quite a resemblance to Edward IV in Henry IMO, good looks, charisma, charm, an athlete's physique that went to seed with age, a tendency to fall head over heels (Elizabeth Wydeville, Anne Boleyn) without much thought for the consequences etc. Edward was more fortunate in his wife, however. He left two surviving sons.
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  #745  
Old 07-04-2015, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post

One thing I've often wondered was how far Henry was willing to go against Mary if she'd continued to defy him. Would he have actually approved the ultimate punishment for his own flesh and blood?

I like to think NO...but his narcissism and cruelty make me wonder.
That is an interesting question. I don't think he would have executed Mary unless she became a threat to the line of succession of his male heirs. If Elizabeth had been a boy, I think Henry may have ordered her death because there were too many doubts about the legitimacy of Henry's second marriage. It wasn't an issue when Edward was born because virtually everyone accepted that Jane Seymour was Henry's "true wife."

I can't feel too sorry for Mary though. She considered executing her sister (whom she practically raised) when it looked like Elizabeth was a threat to her reign.
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  #746  
Old 07-04-2015, 12:18 PM
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Elizabeth Tudor did execute her cousin Mary Queen of Scots so I'm not sure either of them, Queen Mary or Queen Elizabeth, deserve to be felt sorry for.

Technically Jane was a true wife to Henry because his previous wives were dead (even if by his own order). So the issue of legitimacy wouldn't of been raised anyway.


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  #747  
Old 07-04-2015, 12:41 PM
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Elizabeth Tudor did execute her cousin Mary Queen of Scots so I'm not sure either of them, Queen Mary or Queen Elizabeth, deserve to be felt sorry for.

Technically Jane was a true wife to Henry because his previous wives were dead (even if by his own order). So the issue of legitimacy wouldn't of been raised anyway.


LaRae
I think there is a difference between the execution of Mary, Queen of Scots and the threat of execution against Queen Elizabeth I. Mary supported the Babington plot--and Elizabeth had never met Mary, Queen of Scots, even though they were cousins.

On the other hand, Mary and Elizabeth were half sisters. Mary was very involved with Elizabeth's upbringing. Mary was sent to Elizabeth's household as a punishment but from what I have read, Mary was very nurturing. I think she also took Elizabeth into her own household during Henry's marriages to Anne of Cleves and Catherine Howard, but I am not sure about that.

In my opinion, there is a difference between executing a cousin you never met and executing your own sister, whom you knew well.

You had to be tough to be a monarch in those days.
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  #748  
Old 07-04-2015, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post

One of the most sickening and disturbing executions of his reign was that of Margaret Pole, Countess of Salisbury. She had been Catherine of Aragon's intimate friend and the governess of his own daughter Mary. She was an elderly woman when she was butchered on Tower Green for no other reason than Henry wanted revenge against her son Reginald.
Couldn't agree more,it was a terrible cruel act given the advanced age of the Countess and she was also of the royal blood but that mattered not to Henry.
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  #749  
Old 07-04-2015, 03:43 PM
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An Ard Ri, I think it was the fact that the Poles were more Royal than Henry that sealed their fate. That, and the fact that they were pro-Catherine and staunch Roman Catholics.

Reginald had fled England and taken refuge in Rome, where he was eventually elevated the College of Cardinals. His aged mother Margaret remained in England to face the horrible wrath of Henry.
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  #750  
Old 07-04-2015, 03:48 PM
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The Pole's walked a tightrope for years after the Tudor's took power. They were always considered a threat to the throne. So was Buckingham, as was Edward Warrick etc etc. Henry 8 just continued doing what his father had done.


LaRae

Monarch's were not known for their kindness....I read somewhere that The Queen and King of Spain refused to finalize the betrothal between Catherine and Arthur until Henry Tudor executed Warbeck.


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  #751  
Old 07-04-2015, 04:09 PM
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The Pole's walked a tightrope for years after the Tudor's took power. They were always considered a threat to the throne. So was Buckingham, as was Edward Warrick etc etc. Henry 8 just continued doing what his father had done.


LaRae
I agree, but I don't think Henry VII was ever so coldhearted and cruel as to order the butchering of a terrified old lady. The executioner actually chased the Countess of Salisbury around the scaffold ,hacking away at her with an axe until she finally fell dead.

That was a new depth to which Henry VII never plunged during his campaign to achieve and cement his power.
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  #752  
Old 07-04-2015, 04:17 PM
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The execution of the Countess of Salisbury,May 27th,1541

The Execution of Margaret Pole, Countess of Salisbury - The Anne Boleyn Files
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  #753  
Old 07-04-2015, 04:45 PM
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Thanks An Ard Ri. I am going to make becoming a member of The Tudor Society a priority on my To Do list!

For some reason I always believed Margaret's execution took place during Henry's marriage to Anne, at the same time he was getting rid of all the opponents of his religious reform and Catherine's other friends like More, Bishop Fisher, etc. In other words I thought she was killed between 1530-1535.

But I suppose it makes sense that she would be executed around 1541. Henry was in failing health and entering the truly paranoid final 5 years of his reign. For him it was imperative to remove anyone he perceived might threaten his only legitimate male heir, little Prince Edward. So the Poles-the ones he could reach anyway-had to go.
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  #754  
Old 07-04-2015, 06:17 PM
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I agree, but I don't think Henry VII was ever so coldhearted and cruel as to order the butchering of a terrified old lady. The executioner actually chased the Countess of Salisbury around the scaffold ,hacking away at her with an axe until she finally fell dead.

That was a new depth to which Henry VII never plunged during his campaign to achieve and cement his power.

I think his imprisonment and execution of Edward Warrick a were pretty close to what Henry 8 did...Edward was a boy when he was imprisoned...kept imprisoned for years until his execution simply because he was a York heir. Very cruel.

I happen to think that Henry 7 and/or his mother had something to do with the disappearance of the York prince(s) too.

Probably though when compared to other monarchs of the time they were no worse.




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  #755  
Old 07-04-2015, 08:27 PM
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I think his imprisonment and execution of Edward Warrick a were pretty close to what Henry 8 did...Edward was a boy when he was imprisoned...kept imprisoned for years until his execution simply because he was a York heir. Very cruel.

I happen to think that Henry 7 and/or his mother had something to do with the disappearance of the York prince(s) too.

Probably though when compared to other monarchs of the time they were no worse.




LaRae
That is not the same thing imo. Henry VII was no where near as cruel or psychotic as his son. Henry VII executed Warwick after many years of keeping him alive for whatever reason; maybe because he knew he was innocent or because he was his wife's cousin; either way after a few rebellions in his name Henry VII finally had to eliminate the threat from that particular corner. Margaret Pole was bullied because she sided with Katharine of Aragon against Henry and to punish her son Reginald, this after many years of loyalty to The Tudors, even after her brother was killed. She was an old woman who posed no threat.
I understand why Elizabeth killed Mary QOS, I understand why Mary I killed Jane Grey (though I hate her for it), I understand why Henry VII killed Warwick and I can even understand possibly killing Margaret's sons...but not Margaret herself.

And as for Edward and Richard we will never know what really happened to them or who did it, whoever did do it was a cruel bastard but who that was we'll never know. Just like we'll never know who Jack The Ripper was or what the deal with the Man In The Iron Mask was.
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  #756  
Old 07-04-2015, 08:39 PM
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I think what disturbs me about Henry more than the others is that Henry VIII destroyed women he had loved, lived with, conceived children with. Marital intimacy is in a whole different league than killing off people you perceive as political enemies.

Anne Boleyn and Catherine Howard had been his wives and shared his bed. Anne had borne him a child. It was his overweening ego and vanity that demanded that she and Catherine Howard pay for their alleged crimes with their lives instead of being simply being imprisoned or banished to a convent.

Had there been precedent before Henry for medieval/Renaissance monarchs having their own queens beheaded?

And then there is the Countess of Salisbury, godmother and governess to Henry's eldest child and approaching 70 years of age. Hacked to death with an axe because the king wanted to teach her son a lesson.

No, I just don't think Henry's level of brutality was in the same league as other monarchs of the period. The 16th century was a violent time in history but there is something soulless about Henry that I don't see in the other Tudors, not even his utterly misguided daughter "Bloody" Mary.
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  #757  
Old 07-04-2015, 08:43 PM
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That is not the same thing imo. Henry VII was no where near as cruel or psychotic as his son. Henry VII executed Warwick after many years of keeping him alive for whatever reason; maybe because he knew he was innocent or because he was his wife's cousin; either way after a few rebellions in his name Henry VII finally had to eliminate the threat from that particular corner. Margaret Pole was bullied because she sided with Katharine of Aragon against Henry and to punish her son Reginald, this after many years of loyalty to The Tudors, even after her brother was killed. She was an old woman who posed no threat.
I understand why Elizabeth killed Mary QOS, I understand why Mary I killed Jane Grey (though I hate her for it), I understand why Henry VII killed Warwick and I can even understand possibly killing Margaret's sons...but not Margaret herself.

And as for Edward and Richard we will never know what really happened to them or who did it, whoever did do it was a cruel bastard but who that was we'll never know. Just like we'll never know who Jack The Ripper was or what the deal with the Man In The Iron Mask was.

Jack the Ripper, quite a suspect kosminski was, a violent, insane hair dresser. Particularly grotesque case, leaving people like mismatched puzzles and strewn about in oddity. Right? It is a case better noted for it's grave secrecy than it's sordid, vile details. The man in the Iron Mask, Marchioly, a prisoner. Perhaps there is some philosophy in that one published, I haven't looked, that particular one tends to surface more about money crimes committed than prisoner lifestyle leading to some erratic philosophy focusing on misconstrued logic. Edward and Richard? Oh general scandal, vile torture and women must link the 4 indirectly. Jack the Ripper, I think he had a female partner do a lot of the dirty work, kind of leaving most barking up the wrong tree and the public still devoid of most details to this very day, as the general public should be. As far as who dun its and Edward and Richard, I am not much of a historian, but I do enjoy a history lesson.
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  #758  
Old 07-04-2015, 10:23 PM
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There are forums devoted to the study of the Jack the Ripper killings, Thumbahlina, if you wanted to join those.
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  #759  
Old 07-05-2015, 12:10 AM
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Yes please take these theories elsewhere.
As to the topic at hand, the closest I know in comparison to Henry on the wife killing scale was Ivan IV of Russia, I think he had 8 wives.
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  #760  
Old 07-05-2015, 01:01 AM
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I'm actually about to start a series on Henry VIII and his Wives on my blog
lacourroyale.weebly.com


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